• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Pre-Empting Out of Market Network Station on Cable

S

Stanislav

What are (and were, historically) the rules regarding carriage of multiple affiliates of the same network on a single cable system?

My understanding has always been that a cable system within any particular station's market must protect the network programming of that station if they also carry an out of market affiliate of the same network. And that this would not apply to a situation in which there was no "local" affiliate.

Thus, when I visited Tallahassee FL in the mid-1970's, since WCTV was the only local network affiliate (CBS), the system carried multiple out of market ABC (from Dothan and Panama City) and NBC (from Panama City and Albany) stations that duplicated network offerings, while WTVY out of Dothan was blacked out when WCTV was programming CBS.

BUT....oddly a couple of decades later, on another visit to Tallahassee, I noted the cable system running NBC programming from WALB Albany in parallel to the local (I forget the calls -- they were OTA on channel 40) with no blackout.
 
> BUT....oddly a couple of decades later, on another visit to
> Tallahassee, I noted the cable system running NBC
> programming from WALB Albany in parallel to the local (I
> forget the calls -- they were OTA on channel 40) with no
> blackout.
>

WTXL-TV, no doubt standing for "Tallahassee 40" (XL like the Super Bowl was). <P ID="signature">______________
The 2006 New York Yankees...on to title #27!</P>
 
> > BUT....oddly a couple of decades later, on another visit
> to
> > Tallahassee, I noted the cable system running NBC
> > programming from WALB Albany in parallel to the local (I
> > forget the calls -- they were OTA on channel 40) with no
> > blackout.
> >
>
> WTXL-TV, no doubt standing for "Tallahassee 40" (XL like the
> Super Bowl was).


Actually, if memory serves, WTXL were the calls originally used by 27 there, not 40. I do recall that 40 seemed to be a very low-budget affair, always last in the ratings, and I wonder if they ever complained about the Albany station not being blacked-out during NBC programming. (I think 40 was the last Tally affiliate to sign-on, and probably a lot of folks were already used to getting their NBC from Albany, and would have defaulted to that channel out of habit.)
 
> My understanding has always been that a cable system within
> any particular station's market must protect the network
> programming of that station if they also carry an out of
> market affiliate of the same network. And that this would
> not apply to a situation in which there was no "local"
> affiliate.

I believe the exclusivity rule may apply strictly to the given market's immeditate metro area, not the outlying areas.

Example: Troy, Alabama., in the Montgomery DMA, but geographically halfway between Montgomery (45 miles) and Dothan (60). Today, Troy has two competing cable systems - Troy Cable and Charter. Here are the network stations one gets on cable in Troy:
NBC: WSFA-12/Montgomery (Troy Cable also carries WLTZ-38/Columbus GA)
CBS: WAKA-8/Selma-Montgomery, WTVY-4/Dothan
ABC: WNCF-32/Montgomery, WTVM-9/Columbus GA
FOX: WCOV-20/Montgomery
PBS: WGIQ-43/Louisville (Ala. Public Television)

1974--
NBC: WSFA-12/Montgomery, WYEA-38/Columbus GA
CBS: WCOV-20/Montgomery, WTVY-4/Dothan, WRBL-3/Columbus GA
ABC: WKAB-32/Montgomery, WDHN-18/Dothan, WTVM-9/Columbus GA

Columbus, Ga. is 85 miles away to a crow. So why does Troy carry Columbus stations? Simple. In the pre-cable days, rabbit ears could get you a clear signal of only one (1) station: WSFA-12. WTVY-4 came in a bit fuzzy. PBS came in from either channel 2 in Dozier or channel 43 in Louisville. Neither were crystal-clear, but were watchable.

For ABC, there was one option; neither of the ABCs in Montgomery or Dothan had tall sticks at the time, so coverage in Troy was nearly impossible. An outdoor antenna could pull in a decent signals from the two VHFs in Columbus, Ga., WRBL-3 (CBS) and WTVM-9 (ABC).

Despite channel 32 in Montgomery upgrading their tower and coverage, the 'popular default' ABC station in Troy is WTVM-9 Columbus, even today.

Channel 18 (ABC) in Dothan hasn't ever been a serious player -- they're still running off their original 1970-vintage 700' tower. (Their sign out front is a thing of retro beauty, with the ABC logo in red/green/blue letters)

Columbus' NBC station was kept on cable mainly because WSFA was one of the last stations in the area to go 24 hours, and channel 38 carried NBC news overnight. Today, I think 38 is kept on Troy Cable just to have another NBC channel.

> Thus, when I visited Tallahassee FL in the mid-1970's, since
> WCTV was the only local network affiliate (CBS), the system
> carried multiple out of market ABC (from Dothan and Panama
> City) and NBC (from Panama City and Albany) stations that
> duplicated network offerings, while WTVY out of Dothan was
> blacked out when WCTV was programming CBS.

Interesting, I didn't know Tallahassee ever had WDHN-18 on its cable. I knew it used to carry WTVY. Tal. got an ABC station (channel 27) in about 1976, so I'm sure 'DHN was dropped at around that time.

> BUT....oddly a couple of decades later, on another visit to
> Tallahassee, I noted the cable system running NBC
> programming from WALB Albany in parallel to the local (I
> forget the calls -- they were OTA on channel 40) with no
> blackout.

That's always been a burning question for me. Since that's a metro area, I'd think 40 would have the power to demand the cable system drop the other NBCs (WALB-10/Albany and - if it's still on there - WJHG-7/Panama City).

Albany, Ga. is another quirky net-carriage.....
NBC: WALB-10
CBS: WCTV-6/Thomasville, Ga. (city of license, although studios are in Tal.) and WRBL-3/Columbus
ABC: WTVM-9/Columbus and ...... WSB-2/Atlanta!

I'm told WDHN-18 used to be on their cable before being replaced by WSB.

What I don't understand is, WTXL-27/Tallahassee (ABC) can be received with an outdoor antenna (my BIL/SIL can pick it up pretty well at their place). Why has Albany's cable system never carried 27??

My favorites are places like Walterboro, S.C., about an hour north of here. They're in a three-market overlap; the cable system carries three of each net: Savannah, Columbia and Charleston.
 
> WTXL-TV, no doubt standing for "Tallahassee 40" (XL like the
> Super Bowl was).

Ironically, no. WTXL are the calls for channel 27 (ABC). Channel 40 is WTWC.
 
> > WTXL-TV, no doubt standing for "Tallahassee 40" (XL like
> the
> > Super Bowl was).
>
> Actually, if memory serves, WTXL were the calls originally
> used by 27 there, not 40.

And still used to this day. Tallahassee's NBC station is WTWC ch.40.

> I do recall that 40 seemed to be
> a very low-budget affair, always last in the ratings, and I
> wonder if they ever complained about the Albany station not
> being blacked-out during NBC programming.

I was in Tallahassee in 1992, when the Comcast system still offered both WALB and WTWC, and WTWC indeed looked much cheaper than WALB. The text generators WTWC used reek the late-1970s or early-1980s (it made Tampa Bay's WTMV and WTTA look good). This cheapness was why both stations were on cable through the late-1990s.

Things improved for WTWC after Guy Gannett (now Sinclair) boughtv the station, but, with their news a failure, WTWC is still mired at the bottom.
 
In most cases today cable systems only carry duplicate network affiliates when they both have grade B signals or better in a market. Under such conditions niether has to be blacked out BECAUSE WITH A ROOF ANTENNA a person can get both such stations. Examples include places in between Washington DC and Baltimore; Cincinnati & Dayton (in fact in these two markets Grade A signals overlap as well), counties between New York City and Hartford, LA and San Diego, just a few examples. But once a system picks up a station outside the Grade B area then the local affiliate with identical networkk shows can force the system to preempt network shows from the out of the market affiliate.
 
> Channel 18 (ABC) in Dothan hasn't ever been a serious player
> -- they're still running off their original 1970-vintage
> 700' tower. (Their sign out front is a thing of retro
> beauty, with the ABC logo in red/green/blue letters)


Yeah, I drove by there many years ago. With that gaudy sign, it looked more like a truck stop or cheap motel than a TV station. <LOL>
 
> In most cases today cable systems only carry duplicate
> network affiliates when they both have grade B signals or
> better in a market. Under such conditions niether has to be
> blacked out BECAUSE WITH A ROOF ANTENNA a person can get
> both such stations.

Legally and, in some cases, technically, it doesn't quite work that way. Take Flint, Michigan for example -- They're within Grade B coverage of Lansing's WLNS channel 6, CBS for that area, but, due to must-carry regulations, they've been kept off of Comcast's Flint system, as a condition to carry local WNEM. Also, Comcast subscribers in northwestern Oakland County have been finding their local Detroit channels, WDIV, WXYZ and WJBK blacked out, and WWJ not carried at all, even though they're with Grade B of most of those stations. Reason? While they're within the Detroit market, their local Comcast system is connected to Flint, meaning they are forced to play by Flint rules, not Detroit's.
 
WDHN-TV sign

> > (Their sign out front is a thing of retro
> > beauty, with the ABC logo in red/green/blue letters)
>
>
> Yeah, I drove by there many years ago. With that gaudy
> sign, it looked more like a truck stop or cheap motel than a
> TV station.

I took this picture two weeks ago this Saturday while driving through Dothan. WDHN went on the air in 1970, and this is the original item -- has the old "TV-18" logo, along with a backlit ABC 'color' logo:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/bham.rewound/wdhn18_sign.JPG

I've never been through there at night, so I've no idea if they still light it.
 
> Legally and, in some cases, technically, it doesn't quite
> work that way. Take Flint, Michigan for example -- They're
> within Grade B coverage of Lansing's WLNS channel 6, CBS for
> that area, but, due to must-carry regulations, they've been
> kept off of Comcast's Flint system, as a condition to carry
> local WNEM.

Its also possible the cable system dropped Channel 6 on its own to make room for more Cable channels. In many cases that is the real reason duplicate networks have been dropped. The logic was "WHy carry 2 ABC stations when you only need one and can get another cable channel to replace it?" some of the time (NOT ALL THE TIME) its the cable system's call.

Also by the way WNEM also does not run Guiding Light so they shut the show out from Flint not allowing it to be on in Flint. WHile KOVR still does not have it my guess is they will add it LONG BEFORE WNEM ever does (though I wont even hold my breath for KOVR)...the other provision is if Guiding Light will still be there next year. Still yes Flint is a non Guiding Light market.
 
> > In most cases today cable systems only carry duplicate
> > network affiliates when they both have grade B signals or
> > better in a market. Under such conditions niether has to
> be
> > blacked out BECAUSE WITH A ROOF ANTENNA a person can get
> > both such stations.
>
> Legally and, in some cases, technically, it doesn't quite
> work that way. Take Flint, Michigan for example -- They're
> within Grade B coverage of Lansing's WLNS channel 6, CBS for
> that area, but, due to must-carry regulations, they've been
> kept off of Comcast's Flint system, as a condition to carry
> local WNEM. Also, Comcast subscribers in northwestern
> Oakland County have been finding their local Detroit
> channels, WDIV, WXYZ and WJBK blacked out, and WWJ not
> carried at all, even though they're with Grade B of most of
> those stations. Reason? While they're within the Detroit
> market, their local Comcast system is connected to Flint,
> meaning they are forced to play by Flint rules, not
> Detroit's.

Interesting. Further down I-75 in Toledo, WXYZ and WJBK are shown fully, but all network programming is blacked out on WDIV (Buckeye CableSystem runs some lame infomercial channel in its place while it's on) and WWJ is also not carried at all. Having not lived here very long, I don't know what the reasoning is, but I do wish I had two CBS channels to watch during football season.
 
> Things improved for WTWC after Guy Gannett (now Sinclair)
> boughtv the station, but, with their news a failure, WTWC is
> still mired at the bottom.

In the late 70s and early 80s, Hartford City, IN cable had 12 channels available 2-13. Hartford City was in the Indianapolis ADI at the time. Fort Wayne's channel 21's primary city of license is Roanoke, IN. The 35 mile radius marker for channel 21's signal just barely crosses the Hartford City city limits, sooo the cable company carried all of the Indianapolis AND Fort Wayne stations.

2 -- HBO
3 -- WKJG (NBC)**
4 -- WTTV (IND)*
5 -- WANE (CBS)**
6 -- WRTV (ABC)*
7 -- WPTA (ABC)**
8 -- WISH (CBS)* (this is all from memory, I may not have all the
9 -- WGN (IND) station locations on the dial right, but, these
10 -- WHMB (IND)* the stations in the tier during that time. It was
11 -- WFFT (IND)** great on NFL Sundays, 13 carried the Bengals, WKJG
12 -- WIPB (PBS) carried the Browns.)
13 -- WLW-I (NBC)*

*= INDIANAPOLIS
**= FORT WAYNE
 
Clarification of the rules on carriage

> The 35 mile radius
> marker for channel 21's signal just barely crosses the
> Hartford City city limits, sooo the cable company carried
> all of the Indianapolis AND Fort Wayne stations.

There is no "35 mile radius" rule, nor does carrying one station mean carrying all of them.

Decisions are based on the grade-B contour of each individual signal, and that may vary from being 35 miles from the transmitter location, since terrain and the like will affect the pattern. The signal contours for every television station are in the FCC database.<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
Out of Station on Cable (Tyler, Texas; Sherman-Denison, Texas)

In the mid 70s, Cablecom of Denison and Sherman ran KXII (Channel 12/Cable 3), a local CBS/NBC affiliate. They would block KDFW/4 (then-CBS) or KXAS/5 (NBC), depending on which network KXII was running. At first they just took 4 or 5 to black. Later they started substituting KXII's signal on 4 or 5.

Cablecom would also try to pick up Dallas Cowboys games that were blacked out in the DFW market. For years, they would pick up KLTV/7 from Tyler, just for the game. Later, they picked up KAUZ/6 from Wichita Falls, a CBS station, full time--and they didn't block it when it and KXii were running the same program. Briefly, they were picking up KWTV from Oklahoma City for Cowboys games, but it didn't last long.

In Tyler, KLTV/7 was the only local station until the mid 80s. Primarily ABC, but they would cherry pick a few shows from the other nets. All of the Dallas stations were also on the Tyler cable system, along with KTBS/3 (ABC) from Shreveport. KTBS had a really bad signal. United Cable would block WFAA (ABC) if KLTV was running the same program, but they wouldn't block KTBS.




Tyler, Texas;

> What are (and were, historically) the rules regarding
> carriage of multiple affiliates of the same network on a
> single cable system?
>
 
Re: Clarification of the rules on carriage

Canada sort of has the same kind of rules. The infamous "SimSubs" (where if a Canadian station and American station are running the same program on a Cable system, you get the Canadian station on both channels)

Also when BCTV Vancouver was available to rural cable systems across Canada (via Satellite) , Cable companies who carried it and a local CTV affiliate were forced to SimSub the local station over BCTV (of course in many areas the time zone difference meant this almost never happened.)

Oddly enough, the other Cancom stations (CITV Edmonton and CHCH Hamilton) were never subject to blackouts (except maybe sportswise?) or SimSubs.
 
Re: WDHN-TV sign

WOW! Is it 2006 or 1976? Holy crap! :)<P ID="signature">______________
The 2006 New York Yankees...on to title #27!</P>
 
> Interesting. Further down I-75 in Toledo, WXYZ and WJBK are
> shown fully, but all network programming is blacked out on
> WDIV (Buckeye CableSystem runs some lame infomercial channel
> in its place while it's on) and WWJ is also not carried at
> all. Having not lived here very long, I don't know what the
> reasoning is, but I do wish I had two CBS channels to watch
> during football season.
>

How do you do with an antenna? Toledo doesn't look too far from Detroit on the map. <P ID="signature">______________
The 2006 New York Yankees...on to title #27!</P>
 
> > Interesting. Further down I-75 in Toledo, WXYZ and WJBK
> are
> > shown fully, but all network programming is blacked out on
>
> > WDIV (Buckeye CableSystem runs some lame infomercial
> channel
> > in its place while it's on) and WWJ is also not carried at
>
> > all. Having not lived here very long, I don't know what
> the
> > reasoning is, but I do wish I had two CBS channels to
> watch
> > during football season.
> >
>
> How do you do with an antenna? Toledo doesn't look too far
> from Detroit on the map.

WWJ can't be picked up very well, unlike the other full-power Detroit stations. Maybe that's why it's not carried on cable here.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom