Proof that hearing Hotel California repeatedly will drive you crazy

[davideduardo]

#2 WOGL and their large and REAL specialty weekends.

We have been through this before. The feature* weekends run when audiences are at the absolute, dismal lowest where the station uses devices like feature weekends or evening specialty shows to attract some of the few listeners available.

In any case, WOGL has the roughly 600 song "regular" library that most classic hits stations have. There is nothing unusual about the library size there. And we've discussed how the station reflects a conservative, traditional market with its own "sound" (TSOP, natch!).

* As a point of clarification, a whole weekend of modified local programming is called a "feature" or a "special". A "specialty show" is AT 40 or "Doo Wop Shop" or something similar that takes up a couple of hours at most.

 

[davideduardo]

Locally owned.....EXACTLY! Good one.

WMRQ is an alternative rock station. It is part of their positioning to make fun of mainstream music of any kind.

There is no point to be made in regards to classic hits stations here. It's just a station in a totally different format showing that it is different.

WMRQ is also the lowest rated and lowest billing Class B FM in the Hartford market. It's not the sort of station I'd pick as a poster child for anything other than under-performance.

 

[Thomps2525]

David, you mentioned "consensus songs." In the 1960s almost every big hit, regardless of genre, was being played on almost every top-40 station in America. On this day in 1964, for example, KFWB's playlist included Nancy Wilson, Jimmy Hughes, Dean Martin, Barbra Streisand, Roger Miller, Billy Strange, Tommy Raye (Who?), Jimmie Rodgers, Major Lance, Beatles, Beach Boys, Four Seasons, Supremes, Impressions, Ventures, Rene & Rene, Getz/Gilberto and the Greenwood County Singers. I'm guessing that those same artists were being played on top-40 stations in other cities. Well.....maybe not Tommy Jaye. (Who?) Anyway, top-40 radio really did play the top 40 songs. Now we have CHR, rhythmic hits, hot AC, lite rock and many other variations of top-40. There aren't as many songs being played on every station as there were 40 or 50 years ago. When it comes time for KRTH, KOOL, KLOU, WGRR, WCBS-FM and all the other classic-hits stations to start playing hits of the 2000s and 2010s, do you think there will be more than one or two hundred "consensus songs"? The playlists of 2030 may be dinkier than they are now.

 

[Art Landing]

It works. You refuse to acknowledge it. I've already given you countless examples of radio stations that have been brought up by myself and other "oldies trolls" that have large playlists, including one in Southern California, east of LA, but once again, if it isn't #1 or in a large market, they don't matter to you.

Frankly, as one whose own primary interest is in the "old form" of AM radio rather than #1 FM music, I find your attitude toward David Eduardo demeaning and uncalled for. He writes and views radio as it is today - a business where owners and staff are primarily concerned with maximizing sales dollars to service debt and make some kind of ROI (return on investment). This means catering to the optimal audience desired by ad buyers - and from what I can tell David has been quite good at that for over half a century. He also manages a huge repository of historical information. To dismissively state "if it isn't #1 or in a large market, they don't matter to you" doesn't truly portray David's contribution to this industry.

I lament the demise of local owners who were truly committed to serving their community with an entertainment and information format, with ratings secondary or even irrelevant. The station was their voice in the community and those who wanted to listen were invited to the party. But the days when advertisers were considered guests who presented shows endorsed by the station owners to a relatively captive audience disappeared decades ago. I feel that the advent of other entertainment platforms and the impact of deregulation have taken away an art form that only the over 54 crowd remembers or appreciates. But its not that David denies or doesn't care about this - he has acknowledged it in other posts related to his own experiences - it is that he has adapted to the new reality. And (unfortunately in my opinion) he happens to be right.

Don't denigrate the messenger just because you don't like the message!

 

[semoochie]

It works. You refuse to acknowledge it. I've already given you countless examples of radio stations that have been brought up by myself and other "oldies trolls" that have large playlists, including one in Southern California, east of LA, but once again, if it isn't #1 or in a large market, they don't matter to you.

It occurred to me that since 6+ ratings are nothing more than bragging rights(or is it rites?), in order to get agreement from the pros, you're going to have to come up with something that does well within saleable demos(18-54). WOGL is a pretty good argument and would work well with a market with similar traits to Philadelphia. You're going to have trouble finding something similar to Los Angeles though because only about a quarter of the population is fair game for this format.

 

[TheBigA]

I lament the demise of local owners who were truly committed to serving their community with an entertainment and information format, with ratings secondary or even irrelevant.

Actually, there are lots of those local owners today, and they own a lot of little stations in small markets all across the country. And ratings are secondary because their markets or stations are too small. They still serve their communities with entertainment and information. The bigger markets have always been about ratings.

 

[Thomps2525]

Many of us think of radio stations only as a resource where we can hear our favorite songs...but a radio station is a business and, just as all the other businesses, has to make money in order to be successful. David and Art and K.M. and BigA can elaborate on that. I just want you all to be impressed with my perspicacity of the radio business.

 

[davideduardo]

David, you mentioned "consensus songs." In the 1960s almost every big hit, regardless of genre, was being played on almost every top-40 station in America.Anyway, top-40 radio really did play the top 40 songs. Now we have CHR, rhythmic hits, hot AC, lite rock and many other variations of top-40. There aren't as many songs being played on every station as there were 40 or 50 years ago. When it comes time for KRTH, KOOL, KLOU, WGRR, WCBS-FM and all the other classic-hits stations to start playing hits of the 2000s and 2010s, do you think there will be more than one or two hundred "consensus songs"? The playlists of 2030 may be dinkier than they are now.

Remember, "CHR" is just one magazine's name for Top 40. R&R wanted to get away from Billboard's dominance of the charts, so they renamed the format and put that name on their chart. But it was still Top 40.

What we have had since the late 60's is a splintering or fragmenting of audiences caused by the proliferation of viable stations as a result of the FCC's 1967 end to AM/FM simulcasting. So a station that wanted the rock side of Top 40 became progressive rock. One that wanted the women became "Chicken Rock" which was the lead-in to AC. And, as markets became more diverse, we had mainstream CHR and rhythmic CHR going their overlapping but separate ways.

"Lite Rock" was always just a "hip" way of saying AC as the Adult Contemporary term is an insider name... just as in the late 50's and early 60's there were MOR stations, "lite rock" is the MOR format of today.

Yet there are some songs that overlap both kinds of CHR and even get into Hot AC and beyond. Those will be tomorrows gold.

 

[oldies76]

Frankly, as one whose own primary interest is in the "old form" of AM radio rather than #1 FM music, I find your attitude toward David Eduardo demeaning and uncalled for. He writes and views radio as it is today.

I don't believe I demeaned David with my response. I have said on other threads that he has taught me many aspects of radio that were unknown before and that his knowledge was respected. The only thing I have disagreed on, are some programming methods used by big city stations in relation to small town radio and playlist size. I happen to enjoy small town radio and their methods more than stations like KRTH or CBS-FM. It fits my interests on music. Sure, many posts have been repetitive, but hey....what do you expect in a debate of this magnitude and the fact it has been debated for the past 20 years it seems. But every time I bring up a station that does suit my interests and listening habits, that station get's knocked down by how ugly it is or the fact it's rated a 0.1 and that they don't know better.

The way I see it, is that they are trying to be successful, they have nice goals in mind, they play good music and I wish the professionals on this board would have positives, instead of mainly negatives about these start up stations. To me, these are the mom and pops of radio, sort of like the local grocery store in the older part of town vs. the corporate giants, like Ralphs and Wal-Mart. And we know what Wal-Mart has done to the mom and pops in retail.

 

[oldies76]

WOGL is a pretty good argument and would work well with a market with similar traits to Philadelphia. You're going to have trouble finding something similar to Los Angeles though because only about a quarter of the population is fair game for this format.

Well I could mention KRTH, but that would have been the case around 1985.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

The way I see it, is that they are trying to be successful, they have nice goals in mind, they play good music and I wish the professionals on this board would have positives, instead of mainly negatives about these start up stations. To me, these are the mom and pops of radio, sort of like the local grocery store in the older part of town vs. the corporate giants, like Ralphs and Wal-Mart. And we know what Wal-Mart has done to the mom and pops in retail.

Exactly. The ones that are posting here are the McDonalds of radio stations and they have no interest in any other place that might serve you something better, more personalized and tailored to your specific tastes. But more than that, they disdain these other places (stations) because they are competition. Thus they will talk it down, berate it, and tell you how out of step you are for listening to it - in short ostracize you for using your freedom of choice. If they had their way, there would be so much less competition in the marketplace and you would have to go along with whatever their research and computers say - because they are in charge of the research and computers! And just like McDonalds, they have no interest in making their product better, they serve the masses and just expect you to conform. Elvis Costello's lyrics on this matter ring even more true today then when he wrote them:

Radio is a sound salvation
Radio is cleaning up the nation
They say you better listen to the voice of reason
But they don't give you any choice
'cause they think that it's treason.
So you had better do as you are told.
You better listen to the radio.

 

[TheBigA]

But more than that, they disdain these other places (stations) because they are competition.

I don't know about that. Stations that get less than a share or don't even show up in the ratings aren't competition at all.

The Costello song you quoted has this line in the bridge: "I wanna to bite the hand that feeds me..." And he did. Costello had to sneak that song into his set when he appeared on Saturday Night Live, and consequently, he never really got much radio airplay in this country.

 

[michael hagerty]

David, you mentioned "consensus songs." In the 1960s almost every big hit, regardless of genre, was being played on almost every top-40 station in America. On this day in 1964, for example, KFWB's playlist included Nancy Wilson, Jimmy Hughes, Dean Martin, Barbra Streisand, Roger Miller, Billy Strange, Tommy Raye (Who?), Jimmie Rodgers, Major Lance, Beatles, Beach Boys, Four Seasons, Supremes, Impressions, Ventures, Rene & Rene, Getz/Gilberto and the Greenwood County Singers.

And one year later, on this day in 1965, KHJ had a playlist 10 songs shorter with a more focused group of artists (Bob Dylan, Sonny and Cher, We Five, The Righteous Brothers, The Turtles, The Rolling Stones, Mel Carter, The Beach Boys, James Brown, Barbara Lewis, Herman's Hermits, The Beatles, Gary Lewis, The Supremes, The Four Tops, Jay & The Americans, Tom Jones, The Byrds, Marvin Gaye, Petula Clark, The Beau Brummels, The Bobby Fuller Four, Billy Joe Royal, Little Anthony, Sam The Sham & The Pharoahs, Marianne Faithful, The Kinks and The Miracles) and blew what was left of KFWB (which had been getting its lunch eaten by KRLA since 1963) into the weeds.

Why? Because KFWB wasn't playing the Top 40 songs...they were playing 40 songs, out of which (as Buzz Bennett would note a few years later) 7 were truly hits at that moment. The remainder were once hits but declining in popularity, songs that in a few weeks would be part of the 7 hits of that moment, and a ****load that never would be hits. Bill Drake cut those out by tightening to 30 songs. And Buzz eventually beat Bill by going to 22.

Because, even then...most of the audience wasn't glued to the radio and wanted to hear their favorite songs every time they tuned in for however short a span that was.

 

[michael hagerty]

I happen to enjoy small town radio and their methods more than stations like KRTH or CBS-FM. It fits my interests on music.

So what are you doing on the Los Angeles board and why are you posting on and starting threads about KRTH?

 

[oldies76]

So what are you doing on the Los Angeles board and why are you posting on and starting threads about KRTH?

Since October last year, I've only started two threads about K-Earth. I lived in Southern California for 27 years when K-Earth was a better classic hits station. On this thread, I am responding to the post by Mr. Landing. Channel Flipper agrees with my other comment. Why are you responding? It won't matter soon anyways........

 

[davideduardo]

SI lived in Southern California for 27 years when K-Earth was a better classic hits station.

a. KRTH only became a "classic hits" station in the last decade.
b. "better" in this case means, really, "better for you". It is obviously better for the market now than it has been in the last several decades.

On this thread, I am responding to the post by Mr. Landing. Channel Flipper agrees with my other comment. Why are you responding? It won't matter soon anyways........

Why won't it matter?

 

[crainbebo]

Because KRTH SUCKS!! There are more than a few people who are sick and tired of the repetitiveness not only on KRTH, but many other Los Angeles stations as well. KSWD, probably KROQ, KHHT, etc etc. Thank god for live people at little stations who don't need a PPM to get listeners. Stations in the Eastern Sierra are one example - always good playlists at KSRW and KRHV (KIBS still, in 2014, does NOT stream...)

-crainbebo

 

[TheBigA]

There are more than a few people who are sick and tired of the repetitiveness

There are people who are sick and tired of lots of things. For those people, there are personal music devices that they can store up with millions of songs so they never hear the same one twice. Radio stations are NOT personal music devices, and radio stations are not meant to replace purchasing music. Those of you who love music need to put your money where your collective mouths are and BUY the music and support the artists you claim to love, rather than expect to hear it for free on the radio. There are hundreds of artists from the 60s and 70s who are struggling because people don't buy their music or attend their concerts. So rather than complain about being sick and tired, get off your butts and support the artists! That'll give you something to do besides complain.

 

[davideduardo]

Since October last year, I've only started two threads about K-Earth.

Both of which were reruns of prior posts and complaints.

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Miscellaneous/Oldies.jpg

The "old guy" in the cartoon must be you...

 

[davideduardo]

Because KRTH SUCKS!!

Over two and a half million people who have, collectively, made KRTH #1 in persons 12+ in LA disagree. It plays their favorite songs when they want them.

There are more than a few people who are sick and tired of the repetitiveness not only on KRTH, but many other Los Angeles stations as well. KSWD, probably KROQ, KHHT, etc etc.

All those stations regularly ask listeners which songs they should be playing. The consensus songs are gleaned from that research and that is what is played.

Thank god for live people at little stations who don't need a PPM to get listeners.

The PPM is not a programming device. It is, like the diary, just a way to register what station is being listened to.

What stations "need" is enough listeners to either get results from direct accounts or to get buys from agencies. If there are not enough listeners, the station fails.

Stations in the Eastern Sierra are one example - always good playlists at KSRW and KRHV (KIBS still, in 2014, does NOT stream...)

KSRW has a 60 dbu signal that covers less than 15 thousand people. Even with its three translators, it barely covers 30,000 people. There are only a couple of other stations in the Bishop area, so its competition is limited.

Small market stations that have limited competition tend to have loose, informal programming practices. They play "everything" because they do not have access to any data that shows them which of the songs they are playing are undesired by most listeners. And the listeners have few FM choices so they either listen to Pandora or don't listen at all...

Small market stations used to have forgiving audiences because there were no alternatives. Now, satellite and the Internet make those bad stations very vulnerable.