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Proof that hearing Hotel California repeatedly will drive you crazy

As usual Dave Eduardo is both sagacious and right.

An example of a small station that doesn't have "loose programming practices" is a former Clear Channel cast off in Santa Clarita. Its website is a cornucopia of local information - helped by the fact that he station is tied to the family that also owns a local newspaper.Look at its programming schedule: Since weekdays are striped programmed identically in every slot you have to click on days of the week to get programming details.

http://hometownstation.com/on-air-features/program-schedule

Note that during the daylight hours the station has a variety of on-air local features, including different local talk shows on weekdays. Music is played rom 7:00 pm to 6:00 am. Even this gets preempted for local sporting and other special events.

I doubt if the station, serving a relatively small population to the LA Metro area, is even listed in the ratings book because most can't hear it - but in its niche it seems to be achieving its goal. It has done this by focusing on news and information when people are listening - and letting music play while they're watching tv or asleep
 
Because KRTH SUCKS!! There are more than a few people who are sick and tired of the repetitiveness not only on KRTH, but many other Los Angeles stations as well. KSWD, probably KROQ, KHHT, etc etc. Thank god for live people at little stations who don't need a PPM to get listeners. Stations in the Eastern Sierra are one example - always good playlists at KSRW and KRHV (KIBS still, in 2014, does NOT stream...)

-crainbebo

I was raised in Bishop, started my radio career there and programmed two of the stations, KIBS (now KBOV-AM) and KIOQ-FM (now KIBS).

If it weren't for the device of licensing KRHV to Big Pine (studios and offices are in Mammoth Lakes with sister KMMT), Bishop would probably be the smallest city in California with a radio station. 3,864 people live there, according to the latest census.

Most, if not all advertising is local direct. There are no agency buys, so ratings don't come into play.

That may seem like freedom, but it's actually enforced ignorance. You don't honestly know how many people are listening to you, when or for how long.

The audience, even in that remote area (120 miles to the nearest radio market, Ridgecrest...200 miles to Reno, Nevada...270 miles to Los Angeles) has choices. For more than 50 years, the TV cable has carried the signals of Los Angeles FM stations that have their sticks on Mt. Wilson up to town. Given that most people don't spend a lot of time in their cars, being tied to the cable isn't a deterrent.

A fact I learned the hard way: A huge percentage of the people who live in Bishop tune in for the local news, but when they want music, they're listening to something else. Walk into most stores in Bishop and you'll hear a mix of Los Angeles FMs and SiriusXM. That's why it's been a Bishop tradition (begun at KIBS and carried on at KSRW) to have an hour-long newscast at 7 a.m., noon and 5 p.m. They're maximizing the time that they know there are listeners. And they get more for those spots than they do in the music hours.

Their deeper libraries and longer rotations are certainly a change of pace for those of us in urban areas...but don't make the mistake of thinking it's any kind of blueprint for radio in larger markets. Not only would it not translate for reasons that have been laid out here time and again...but it really doesn't work there, either. The music is, as KSRW's website lists it , "in between" newscasts and other highly specialized local non-music programming.
 
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Oh sure, radio stations doing newswcasts in 2014! Michael, now we know you're just making things up! :)
 
Their deeper libraries and longer rotations are certainly a change of pace for those of us in urban areas...but don't make the mistake of thinking it's any kind of blueprint for radio in larger markets. Not only would it not translate for reasons that have been laid out here time and again...but it really doesn't work there, either. The music is, as KSRW's website lists it , "in between" newscasts and other highly specialized local non-music programming.

What you describe parallels the oft-mentioned WLNG in Sag Harbor. Even though Sag Harbor/ The East End is a market of 120,000 and much bigger than the Greater Bishop "metro" WLNG also fills with music in between obituaries, swap shop, birth notices, lost dogs and local news and weather... lots of local news and weather. Folks from afar comment on the 10,000 song library and the profusion of jingles, but they miss the fact that WLNG is a community voice.

They will likely be the kind of local station that survives the migration to new media, eventually making their stream the primary platform.

I once visited KIBS. It was 1973, and there were actually 3 people in the building on the left side of the road driving in from the south... I believe one was the manager or owner or both, one was a jock and newsman and then there was the office lady who did logs, billing, accounting and mothering. I often thought that it would be very cool to own a station like that and forget the freeways and ratings and agencies. Particularly the agencies.
 
As usual Dave Eduardo is both sagacious and right.

But Michael actually worked and lived there, and his comments are even more to the point. Ignore me and listen to him on this one!

Another person who lived in the area is Scott Fybush who went to school there... but he is on the "other" board.
 
Yes, KSRW has live and local news at noon on 92.5 FM. And at 5pm just like he said. Michael, when you say the local businesses are playing LA FMs, are they playing KRTH's stream or is there some type of knife-edge reflection over the Sierras that brings Mt. Wilson FMs into the Eastern Sierra?
Scott pops up from time to time here, he used to pick up San Luis Obispo and Fresno very often by knife-edge DX on FM (and sometimes TV w/ KSBY-6)

-crainbebo
 
Michael, when you say the local businesses are playing LA FMs, are they playing KRTH's stream or is there some type of knife-edge reflection over the Sierras that brings Mt. Wilson FMs into the Eastern Sierra?

Michael said that all the Mt Wilson FMs are carried on the local cable.
 
I once visited KIBS. It was 1973, and there were actually 3 people in the building on the left side of the road driving in from the south... I believe one was the manager or owner or both, one was a jock and newsman and then there was the office lady who did logs, billing, accounting and mothering. I often thought that it would be very cool to own a station like that and forget the freeways and ratings and agencies. Particularly the agencies.


David:

Depending on when in 1973 and at what time of day, that jock may have been me. I was in high school until June of that year, and upon graduation, was promoted from Music Director/evening DJ to Program Director/midday DJ.

The GM was a fellow named John Hemler, who hired me at age 15 and brought me along each step of the way. A truly great guy and a local legend. He did the morning show and the long-form newscasts. The hourly 5-minutes were strictly rip and read from the UPI wire by the jocks.

The DJ might have been "Gentleman" Gene Dozier...and the receptionist/secretary/traffic person/bookkeeper was his wife, whose first name escapes me now, but you're right...she was pretty much the mom figure as well.

The owner was absentee...Frank Oxarart, father of Frank Oxarart, Junior, who would become General Manager of KFWB in Los Angeles. He was running the station as a tax write-off and it was allowed to fall into deplorable shape compared to how it had been under the original (1953-1969) ownership of Elwayne Clement, Bud Deming and Roy Downey, and the owner who followed, former KWOW, Pomona and KPOL, Los Angeles engineer John Young, who bought it in 1976 and brought it back from the brink.

How bad was it? One night in '72, the FCC made a surprise inspection while Hemler was ill and I was alone in the building. 106 written violations...miraculously, none affecting my license. When the inspector asked me to take the station down to night power, his mouth dropped open as I walked out of the studio to the lobby where the transmitter was the showpiece, went around it, took the back off it and jiggled the broom handle sticking out of the middle of the old RCA BTA1-R. The relay switch on the front of the transmitter had failed eight months before and Oxarart wouldn't approve the purchase of a replacement. There are 105 other stories, but you get the basic idea.

I also had dreams of someday coming back to town with a million dollars, running it right and providing jobs in my hometown. But it was a struggle even done right. Spots outside those longform newscasts were frequently literally a "dollar per holler". If anybody was paying five bucks a spot, they were paying the absolute top of the rate card. Most fell in the two-to-four dollar range.

We had no competition over-the-air during daylight hours until 1974. At night, strong AM signals from everywhere, especially San Diego, Los Angeles, Fresno and San Francisco, came in like locals. The typical Bishop High School student's car radio pushbuttons were KFRC, KHJ, XERB (for Wolfman Jack), KCBQ (good for half an hour before the pattern change at which point it was swamped by KLOK, San Jose) and KIBS.

Even adults were looking for alternatives, though. The take rate on factory and aftermarket car tape decks from 1966 on was way bigger in Bishop than it was in big cities with a choice in radio stations. Even if these people didn't commute for long periods of time (Bishop is so small, it's hard to get more than 5 minutes from anywhere), they did take road trips...and it was 120 miles to the south and 170 miles to the north before you'd find another signal on the radio.

Clement, Deming and Downey had put an FM on the air in 1967, but Oxarart took it dark as soon as he bought the station and turned the ticket back into the FCC.

Downey owned one of the local electronics stores (I think there were three) and promoted the daylights out of KIBS-FM to sell FM radios, especially big Zenith and Admiral console stereos with color TVs. There were two ways to watch TV...Channels 2, 4, 5 and 7 from Los Angeles and 8 from Reno were on UHF translators, but the signals tended to be weak and snowy...and there was cable...put in by Bell immediately after World War II. Spend 7 bucks a month, and you could get a cleaner picture with the four channels available on translator plus channels 9, 11 and 13 from L.A.

Once most people bought a nice, new color TV, they popped for cable. And that's when they discovered that the cable didn't just bring up TV stations from L.A., but every FM with a stick on Mt. Wilson. So, suddenly, Bishop residents tuning in to their new FM station found KNX-FM, KMET, KABC-FM, KJOI, KHJ-FM, KOST, KBIG and more. And when Frank Oxarart pulled the plug on KIBS-FM, those folks just kept listening to the L.A. FMs. You had to have cable, but it wasn't long before enterprising people (some legal, some not) put the more popular L.A. FMs on 10-watt translators, so you could drive around Bishop and listen to L.A. FM stations (the electronics shop did big business in FM converters shaped like 8-track cartridges that slid into your car's tape deck).

KIBS had been block-programmed for years. Country music from 6 to 7 a.m., an hour of news at 7, Country again from 8 to 9 a.m., a "women's program" called "Coffee With Virginia" from 9-10, playing middle-of-the-road (MOR---Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Patti Page, Doris Day) music, "Radio Bingo" (just what it sounds like, an hour of a DJ calling out bingo numbers as you played along at home with this week's cards offered free at the Ben Franklin store) from 10-11, more MOR from 11-noon, an hour of news at noon, more MOR from 1-5, an hour of news at 5, Classical music "for the dinner hour" at 6, and Top 40 from 7 p.m. until signoff at 10.

When I became PD in the summer of '73, it was clear we were getting our lunch eaten doing this. The MOR listeners were more and more really Beautiful Music listeners tuning to KJOI, KOST and KBIG. Classical fans always preferred KFAC to a single hour in mono AM. And that year, KKDJ went from automation to a live Top 40 with Jay Stevens, Rowdy Russ O'Hara, Billy Pearl, Kris Erik Stevens and T. Michael Jordan (with Charlie Tuna months away from taking over mornings). We needed to hit them where they weren't, so I kept the news and "Coffee With Virginia", but went Adult Contemporary...hipper than the MOR music, not as raucous as Top 40, for the music in all dayparts. And we started getting traction. KHJ-FM had become KRTH a few months before, going oldies and removing the closest thing to AC from the FM dial. Suddenly, we were offering something the audience couldn't get elsewhere. The other option was Country, and in hindsight, that's where I should have gone. But I was 17 and let my own tastes get in my way.

Still, KIBS did well and I went off to KSLY in San Luis Obispo.

In 1974, fellow former KIBS high school DJ Roy Mayhugh got the construction permit for what had been KIBS-FM, hired me as PD, I came back home and we put KIOQ-FM on the air. We went Adult Contemporary (stereo versus mono on KIBS and accessing those FM listeners) and KIBS went Country nine months later. The following year, after I left to program KUKI in Ukiah, they sold to John Young, who nursed it back to health, eventually (8 years later) buying KIOQ, putting the KIBS calls and the Country format on it and changing the AM to KBOV (Beautiful Owens Valley) as an automated oldies station). It's on its second set of owners post-John, but appears to be in good hands.

But I learned from my 11 years of living there and four years doing radio there that there are two ways you can approach what goes between the newscasts. One is to play loose, wide and eclectic. The other is to be as strong, solid and polished as the other things the audience is listening to. The second approach worked for me in Bishop, and especially in Ukiah, where I was sharing the dial with KFRC, KNBR and KSFO which all came in like locals 24/7.
 
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David:

Depending on when in 1973 and at what time of day, that jock may have been me. I was in high school until June of that year, and upon graduation, was promoted from Music Director/evening DJ to Program Director/midday DJ.

That is a fascinating story, and I read it with great pleasure.

When I drove through Bishop, I had "the family" (wife and a 9-month-old) with me. I pulled into the drive / parking lot of KIBS so the baby could be changed. While that went on, I went to visit the radio station. At the time, I was consulting KWKW, KRUX, KENO and KTKT and had driven up from Phoenix to go around to the back side the parks. Since I was also doing fulltime at ASU, it would have been in the break between late June and early July between the main semester and summer courses. So, yes, I might have seen you on the air.
 
Small market stations used to have forgiving audiences because there were no alternatives. Now, satellite and the Internet make those bad stations very vulnerable.

Bad stations you call them. I hope they take that as an insult. KFXM, Hippie Radio, WLNG, 1510 Denver, 950 Denver, 1530 KCMN, Super Hits 106, and hundreds of others, according to David, you are all bad stations. Only the number one stations like KRTH are good stations.

T-12
 
Bad stations you call them. I hope they take that as an insult. KFXM, Hippie Radio, WLNG, 1510 Denver, 950 Denver, 1530 KCMN, Super Hits 106, and hundreds of others, according to David, you are all bad stations. Only the number one stations like KRTH are good stations.

I was not including KFXM, which is a non-commercial LPFM, in my broad "bad station" category. Nor was I ncludig WLNG, as it is foremost not even a music station (something you fail to recognize). I do include commercial stations with way-too-big lists that have not been consulted with the listener. The new Denver station is a good example and the audience has voted and rejected the candidate.

Remember, a station with low or no ratings is a "good" station to very few people.
 
I do include commercial stations with way-too-big lists that have not been consulted with the listener. The new Denver station is a good example and the audience has voted and rejected the candidate.

Once again, the station just began it's format this past March. It's July. It's been only four months. You are being too quick to judge. And frankly, small stations don't need listener research...at all. They should get their ideas from bigger stations like 105.1 (or out of state stations like KRTH) and mix in those songs with what they already play. That's variety for you.

When KRTH began in 1972, what was it's very first book as an oldies format?
 
Once again, the station just began it's format this past March. It's July.

It has been through 3 full books, with the 4th to come out in a week. It did not get out of the gate.

It's been only four months.

Oh, then it is 4 books. In PPM, it happens or it does not with music stations. This one, basically an AM with a tiny FM signal covering 10% of the market, will likely do what the other 12 or 15 formats have done on 1510... nothing.

And frankly, small stations don't need listener research...at all.

They are a small music station in a big transactional ratings driven market. You don't know anything, as is obvious to all, about how the business of radio works, or you would know that the alternative for bad signals that can't compete is to do niche programming like religion or a foreign language other than Spanish.

When KRTH began in 1972, what was it's very first book as an oldies format?

You would need to look at 4 books, or 15 months to make the same comparison between a diary survey and a panel based PPM survey.
 
Because KRTH SUCKS!! There are more than a few people who are sick and tired of the repetitiveness not only on KRTH, but many other Los Angeles stations as well. KSWD, probably KROQ, KHHT, etc etc. Thank god for live people at little stations who don't need a PPM to get listeners. Stations in the Eastern Sierra are one example - always good playlists at KSRW and KRHV (KIBS still, in 2014, does NOT stream...)

-crainbebo

And....KIBS does stream: [URL="http://www.kibskbov.com/"[/URL] Look for the "Listen Live" box in the second column from the right.
 
Because KRTH SUCKS!! There are more than a few people who are sick and tired of the repetitiveness not only on KRTH, but many other Los Angeles stations as well. KSWD, probably KROQ, KHHT, etc etc. Thank god for live people at little stations who don't need a PPM to get listeners. Stations in the Eastern Sierra are one example - always good playlists at KSRW and KRHV (KIBS still, in 2014, does NOT stream...)

Yeah many in the LA basin think the same. Unfortunately they don't have the means or the will to make their own opinions known. Many, many people are dissatisfied with KRTH, especially ones who lived in LA long enough to realize the changes done to their dissatisfaction. I don't give a darn what replication results offer. KRTH being #1 means nothing to everyday music listeners. I'm sure some are saying, how can KRTH be #1, if they force feed "Hotel California" 5 times a day to us?? And don't tell me and the other music fans that these regular listeners only hear it once a month. I don't buy it and never will.

Small town radio, our saving grace!! Without them, radio would be more than lost.
 
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Making up crap again?

Ask the average everyday listener in LA if they check the Arbitron ratings every month and see what they'll tell you. Or did you research that also?

5
 
So what are you doing on the Los Angeles board and why are you posting on and starting threads about KRTH?

Why be purposefully insulting? This was mild, but I gather there is an insult to be found. I also generally do not respond to these mild insults, but what is happening here is that a valued member of the Radio Discussions community no longer feels welcomed.

This site is for enthusiasts as well as pros. Opinions are varied. Backgrounds are diverse. All are welcomed. No one should have to explain why they are here.

Oldies76 is not a troll, he expresses his views and opinions articulately and intelligently. There is no reason to get rude with someone you disagree with.

If you are only here to say you are right and he is wrong, this is not the place to be.

I'm asking everyone to move on from this discussion unless you have something valuable to add. I'd rather not close the thread, but will if it seems it has run its course.
 
Yeah many in the LA basin think the same.

You have no way to know that.

I don't have any way of knowing that unless I spend something like $25 thousand and up to do an accurate, representative sample of the market.

From KRTH's perspective, they are happy... no, make that "overjoyed" at the current results. If in the process of the makeover, they may have lost some old listeners (who are likely "old" demographically as well and thus no loss at all) but the net gain is fabulous.

And KRTH tests music. If they find the listener group they want to attract no longer like "Hotel" as much as before, they will slow the rotation or even nuke the song. If they continue to play it so often, then that means they are secure in believing that having the average listener hear it once or twice a month is good for them!

Radio stations don't really care about who was listening long ago. They care who was listening in the last book or two and how they are trending.
 
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