PSIP

[tripinva]

I guess I didn't see it mentioned in this thread, so if it was, please excuse me. But for TV stations to go by their digital position instead of their orignal mapped channel is kinder stupid, because some converters (like my RCA from Walmart) do not let you dial up the DT channel. For example, KAMC TV broadcasts on 17.1, but don't bother dialing it up, nothing happens.

So why would a TV station even bother? It would only confuse the viewers, and turn them away. If KCBS can only be called up by typing 2.1, than that's is their channel. Am I missing something here?

It's all in what the station sends out. I could map a station to 87-34 if I really wanted to (assuming no FCC fines). There's no technical reason they can't map to their physical channel. Some stations (KAIL, KCEN, etc) have done so, though the vast majority will wisely continue using their analog channel numbers, whether their digital signal is there or not.

- Trip

 

[Robnoxious]

I guess I didn't see it mentioned in this thread, so if it was, please excuse me. But for TV stations to go by their digital position instead of their orignal mapped channel is kinder stupid, because some converters (like my RCA from Walmart) do not let you dial up the DT channel. For example, KAMC TV broadcasts on 17.1, but don't bother dialing it up, nothing happens.

So why would a TV station even bother? It would only confuse the viewers, and turn them away. If KCBS can only be called up by typing 2.1, than that's is their channel. Am I missing something here?

That is a fault of your specific converter box and/or the slim chance that KAMC is throwing out consistently bad PSIP data and cannot map correctly (lean toward the former as the root of the cause). I haven't read any great reviews about the RCA box when I was shopping for a converter to be quite honest. If it's the wavy looking one, I had it labeled as one to avoid.

My Zenith DTT901 (which I highly recommend to anyone still looking for a converter box) will punch up any channel with either it's historical analog position or it's true digital position after it has successfully scanned all of the local DTV spectrum and receives a signal lock.

 

[tripinva]

That is a fault of your specific converter box and/or the slim chance that KAMC is throwing out consistently bad PSIP data and cannot map correctly (lean toward the former as the root of the cause).

This is actually a rather large problem, I find. I was given a box for Christmas, the Apex DT502, and the tuner chip in the thing is AMAZING. It holds WBRA-DT on channel 3 through all kinds of interference that even the Zenith DTT900 boxes won't handle well.

What it will not do, however, is add channels through any method other than the channel scan. No manual channel entry, no scan to add channels like the Zenith's "EZ Add," no anything. Which is a shame, because the sensitivity of the tuner chip means it could have been a great DXing box.

I've got a Sunkey SK801ATSC on order, and it's supposed to have the same chip and whatnot as the DT502, but with manual channel entry. I'll know for sure by this weekend, I hope. Maybe this will be my DXing box. =)

- Trip

 

[w9wi]

This is actually a rather large problem, I find. I was given a box for Christmas, the Apex DT502, and the tuner chip in the thing is AMAZING. It holds WBRA-DT on channel 3 through all kinds of interference that even the Zenith DTT900 boxes won't handle well.

What it will not do, however, is add channels through any method other than the channel scan. No manual channel entry, no scan to add channels like the Zenith's "EZ Add," no anything. Which is a shame, because the sensitivity of the tuner chip means it could have been a great DXing box.

I've got a Sunkey SK801ATSC on order, and it's supposed to have the same chip and whatnot as the DT502, but with manual channel entry. I'll know for sure by this weekend, I hope. Maybe this will be my DXing box. =)

Corporate engineering sent out this link earlier this week:
http://www.wchstv.com/dtvconverterboxes/

It's a series of reviews of converter boxes, done by the Sinclair stations in San Antonio.

Interestingly, they thought the DT502 had problems with sensitivity... and don't mention the inability to manually add channels, which they do mention with other boxes.

 

[willcail]

When I used to have the Magnavox analog to digital STB, (My bedroom TV was an Sanyo Enhance Definition 15 inch LCD TV with an analog tuner. The backlight went out and gotten a VIZIO 270p HDTV to replace it.) It allowed me to manually enter the UHF channels. The tuner was great I was able to connect my radio's FM Reflective antenna to the ATSC tuner and was getting great reception. Now I'm thinking getting another RCA HDTV omnidirectional HDTV antenna (the one that looks like a white square) since I'm getting great reception with my first one that is connected to my HDTV that is in the living area of my apartment. I'm using this Jensen UHF/VHF rabbit ears antenna that is decent but not great. I can't used one of those small outdoor HDTV antenna's since the owners would frown if I try to bolt it to outside one of the windows.

There is a Cincinnati low power TV station is branding themselves as WKRP via PSIP. Its also known as WBQC The Other Channel. 25/38. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WBQC-CA

Digital signals work the best if they're on the UHF band. Low VHF is terrible for digital TV especially for HD broadcast. High VHF is better but not that much. Plus majority people known about TV channels than the actual megahertz frequency of the local stations.

One thing I do missed about the PSIP for the
In Columbus Ohio all of the full power stations will stay on their post transitional UHF channels for their digital signals. With the exception of WSYX they want to moved to UHF 48 and WDEM flash cut to digital on UHF 17. The other low power TV stations will flash cut on the same UHF channels that they're broadcasting their analog signal. With the exception of WCPX-LP UHF 48. They are supposed to moved to UHF 25 so WSYX can used UHF 48. WCPX-LP also have permission to flash cut to digital on UHF 48 as well.

BTW WDEM CA LD now have a website. http://www.wdem-tv.com Their programming is streaming live. Yes you can used your own streaming video software instead of the embedded one.

One thing I do missed about the PSIP for the Magnavox analog to digital STB is that I can go up to four hours in advance of the EPG. Can't do that with the VIZIO's PSIP.

 

[tripinva]

Corporate engineering sent out this link earlier this week:
http://www.wchstv.com/dtvconverterboxes/

It's a series of reviews of converter boxes, done by the Sinclair stations in San Antonio.

Interestingly, they thought the DT502 had problems with sensitivity... and don't mention the inability to manually add channels, which they do mention with other boxes.

All I can tell you is what I have. I have the DT502, I'm looking at it right now. There is no way to add channels, and it beat the pants off of the Zenith with regard to its ability to hold onto WBRA-DT 3 in the face of electrical interference. It may be less sensitive overall (I couldn't check it because it wouldn't add channels I wanted to DX, that's what the Sunkey is for) but a receiver that will hold PBS is one I want in my house.

There were other Apex boxes, such as the confusingly-numbered DT250, which better matches those complaints and notes than this one. The DT250 did have manual channel entry and poor performance. Given they mention "complaints" and not their own tests on it, I have to assume that's what they're referring to.

- Trip

 

[w9wi]

All I can tell you is what I have. I have the DT502, I'm looking at it right now. There is no way to add channels, and it beat the pants off of the Zenith with regard to its ability to hold onto WBRA-DT 3 in the face of electrical interference. It may be less sensitive overall (I couldn't check it because it wouldn't add channels I wanted to DX, that's what the Sunkey is for) but a receiver that will hold PBS is one I want in my house.

Man, that was one of those messages I wish I'd read a few more times before sending... the tone didn't come out the way I wanted...

My point was to look at the link, but be leery about taking it too seriously.

 

[tripinva]

Man, that was one of those messages I wish I'd read a few more times before sending... the tone didn't come out the way I wanted...

My point was to look at the link, but be leery about taking it too seriously.

You sounded fine, don't worry. I was just telling you my experience.

I think they've confused the DT502 with the DT250, which while similar in appearance, are very different boxes on the inside. Last time I went to Best Buy, the boxes were all mixed together. They look the same, too.

- Trip

 

[Neel]

I always thought that the must carry rules say that a channel can be carried on it's OTA position or lower. However, Charter Cable in the San Gabriel Valley carries KDOC on 61. I always wondered how they got away with that and no complaints from KDOC.

Do please note that what's happening to KDOC is entirely covered by the must-carry rules. If KDOC wanted to be on 56 on every cable system in the Southland, it could do so. (Its DTV RF channel doesn't enter into the equation here.) But the rules also say that a station can be carried on a different, lower channel that's either mutually agreeable to the cable company and broadcaster, or on which the station was carried on a particular historical date.

 

[ixnay]

Er, what's PSIP? ??? Please spell out the words. Never saw the term before. :-[

 

[dhett]

No need to be confused - look it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSIP

Program and System Information Protocol

 

[kenrayc]

I believe the rules for the OTA carried on their channel applies to VHF ONLY. Most cable companies put all local at the beginning of the line up and put the UHF station on the unused VHF channel. Example in the BAY AREA ALL VHF are on there cnannel, but KICU 36 is on channel 6,KBHK 44 is on 12 and so forth.
In Fresno, an all UHF market Comcast tries to match the last number of the OTA ,for example KSEE NBC 24 is on 4,KMPH FOX 26 is on 6,KGPE CBS 47 is on 7,KVPT PBS 18 is on 8, MY 53 is on channel 13 ,the one exception is KFSN ABC 30 is on 3. Now that KAIL 53 switched to channel 7 digittaly and using PSIP mapped channel 7.1 Im wondering if Comcast will have to move them on 7 and put 47 somewhere else.

 

[azumanga]

Now that KAIL 53 switched to channel 7 digittaly and using PSIP mapped channel 7.1 Im wondering if Comcast will have to move them on 7 and put 47 somewhere else.

Such a move many need to be negotiated with KGPE, especially if KGPE requested the channel 7 cable slot themselves.

 

[arnoldevns]

PSIP is here to stay and virtual channels will be here to stay too.
GENERALLY SPEAKING, a station that's been on say channel 5 for 60 years really doesn't want to have to re-educate viewers to tell them they're now channel 40. 10 years from now it will be the same problem. The FCC is trying to avoid confusion for viewers and stations. Generally speaking this system is working well.

I say "generally speaking" because clearly there are some stations that want to use the new digital channel for branding and others who are working to confuse the viewer by picking a number that is neither their analog nor their digital allotment. I'm not saying they should either be allowed to do this or that it's wise, it's just a fact. It's also a fact that in most cases, the virtual channel is being used properly and is helping to avoid viewer confusion. It's here to stay. Get used to it.

 

[kenglish]

Calling ourselves "5-1" is still a lot easier than having people enter "UHF Channel 38, Pilot Frequency 614.310 MHz, TSID 3003, VPID 49, APID 52, SID 3, Data Rate 19.39 MBpS, Symbol Rate 5.381 MBpS".

That's all sent within the PSIP, and the receiver keeps track of it in a table. It's a heckuva lot easier to say "Tonight on Channel 5-1" than to squeeze all that stuff in to a ten-second promo.

 

[willcail]

One good thing that the Zenith Digital to Analog STB is that you can add any digital RF manually. I showed this to my mom while she was watching something on WCMH 4.1.

 

[kenglish]

That's one reason the DTV DXers love that one.

 

[anotherguyTN]

I think that since mapping exists that any station that wants to use it to associate to their analog channel number should be allowed to, and any channel that wasnts to use its digital channel number should be allowed to as well. Perhaps if they want to be associated with the channel used on the city's cable system that should also be allowed. But I don't think that a station should be allowed to pick any random number that has nothing to do with their analog, digital, or cable channel.

 

[fybush]

I think that since mapping exists that any station that wants to use it to associate to their analog channel number should be allowed to, and any channel that wasnts to use its digital channel number should be allowed to as well. Perhaps if they want to be associated with the channel used on the city's cable system that should also be allowed. But I don't think that a station should be allowed to pick any random number that has nothing to do with their analog, digital, or cable channel.

This was beaten thoroughly to death on the last thread about this topic, but to summarize: there have to be standards, or else there's bound to be confusion. If you allow stations to choose at will whether to use their former analog channel number or the channel associated with the frequency on which they're now broadcasting, conflicts will inevitably arise.

What happens in Buffalo, where WNLO was analog 23 and digital 32, while WPXJ was analog 51 and will be digital 23, if you allow WPXJ to decide it wants to be "23," too? Or in Pittsburgh, where WPXI was analog 11 and digital 48, while WNPA (owned by one of WPXI's main competitors) was analog 19 and will be digital 11? Or in Boston, where WHDN-LD just filed a displacement application to move from 26 to 38 when WSBK vacates that analog channel in June?

The FCC decided, wisely, that there had to be a simple rule to avoid the need for someone to play referee in individual situations like that. So it adopted the provisions of the ATSC standard that say a digital station's "major channel number" must be its former analog channel, as well as additional provisions that dictate ahead of time what new digital-only stations will use as their major channel numbers.

There are cases in which stations have been using their digital channels as their major channel numbers, apparently with at least the informal blessing of the Commission. But it's my understanding that the FCC has been coming down hard (and rightly so) on stations that have been using "other" channel numbers (including cable channel numbers) as their major channel numbers.