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Question About Jingles and Songs

A

AndrewLawson

Guest
Sorry for this question which might sound dumb, but why don't deejays talk over the music after a jingle plays and the song begins? I've been listening to WYRK, WHTT and Star. When these stations play jingles before a song, rarely if ever do I hear the dj mention who sings the song and what the title is, but if there's no jingle, the dj usually mentions the song title and artist or group that sings it. A lot of times, especially with oldies and country music, I have no idea who sings the song that I like. Isn't one of the basic responsibilities of the dj to tell listeners who sings the songs?
 
Not a dumb question at all. Rarely if ever do you hear a jock talk over an intro of a song that's played after a jingle. It's just not done... well, maybe in morning drive in some formats, but for the most part, not after 9 a.m. Many stations use jingles and positioning sweepers or bumpers between songs rather than allowing the jocks to speak.

Used to be that jocks' primary role was to introduce all the songs. They'd talk about a dozen times an hour. You'd hear DJs talk about the artists and groups or do some (attempt at) humor tied into the song or artist before and/or after the songs. That's called front-selling and back-selling. Listeners found this interesting and entertaining.

Somewhere along the way, probably in the "more music more often" days of radio consultant and guru Bill Drake and later the Q, Z and Y formats of CHR when shorter jingles called "shotgun jingles" became more popular, the role of the DJ changed from being an entertainer-informer to being a liner-reader-promoter, primarily telling listeners what's being played or to be played later ("front-selling" songs, or "forward motion") and rarely if ever telling listenrs the name of the song that was just played ("back-selling" songs) except at certain points in the hour, usually before commercials. If you hear the DJ tell you the names and artists of the song that was just played or the last five songs that were just played, you can bet dollars to dog snot that a commercial break will follow. This is particularly relevant to your post because you heard songs you liked on the stations you listened to, but didn't hear the DJ tell you who sang those songs. In other words, you would liked to have heard a "back sell."

In the progressive FM formats of the mid and late 60s, stations played as many as five songs in a row (segue or segway) without any jock talk or interruption. In many cases, the songs were connected by themes relating to lyrics, artists (five songs from Led Zeppelin), even weather (e.g., Riders On The Storm-Rain-Sunshine of Your Love-Sunshine Superman, etc.)

Some of the most proficient Top 40 jocks learned how to package the information into a 13 second intro of a song. The progressive jocks eschewed the snappy delivery and in the early days of album rock radio, sounded 'luded-out or stoned. I'm certain many were... others were just great actors... and don't forget the occasional jock from Cheektowaga or Brighton who put on that phoney British accent. Larry Belkowski became Larry Livingston or Lord Larry. What a hoot!

These days, you're more likely to hear promotional announcements over the intros of songs and if you're lucky, the artist and/or title of the song. And if you listen carefully, the jock talks maybe four to six times an hour and one of those promotional announcements usually goes something like, "find the title and artist of any song you hear on our website at WXXX dot com."
 
AndrewLawson said:
Sorry for this question which might sound dumb, but why don't deejays talk over the music after a jingle plays and the song begins? I've been listening to WYRK, WHTT and Star. When these stations play jingles before a song, rarely if ever do I hear the dj mention who sings the song and what the title is, but if there's no jingle, the dj usually mentions the song title and artist or group that sings it. A lot of times, especially with oldies and country music, I have no idea who sings the song that I like. Isn't one of the basic responsibilities of the dj to tell listeners who sings the songs?
Click to expand...

Andrew, you've brought up my favorite radio topic (jingles) with a great question, so I have to unlurk.

Talking after a jingle plays always sounds terrible to me. If you've got to say something after a jingle, I think it's better to just play a talkover jingle instead and say it over the jingle.

The only time I've ever heard talk after a full sing jingle on a regular basis (and it actually sounded good) was on 98PXY in the 80's. They had a "hitbound" jingle and would play that going into a brand new song. Then they would talk over the intro of the song and ID it.

The only problem with that is no one knows if they like the new song until after they've heard it and that's when they want to know the name and artist. And they usually won't remember what was said going into the song.

Syndicated shows like Casey will break the "talking after a jingle" rule quite a bit. On a syndicated show, that's okay. In regular format, no.

Just my opinion though...
 
Working at AFN "in theater", we have set way of how things should be done, but with that also comes the very lenient mentality that there's an exception to every rule. So there's a lot of leeway... one might say "Freedom" (tip of the hat to the station slogan: FREEDOM RADIO) in what will sound best for the application you're dealing with.

We do a significant amount of talkups, with only two 2:00 breaks an hour. Live readers are still a hot treasure in our neck of the woods. (That is, when the station has enough jocks to be live.) And so with that comes front-selling songs, sometimes we get to it, sometimes we don't. If it's a really recognizable tune, it isn't really so important to sell, but we do backsell regularly. I try to do a 2-song set, for the most part, talking into it and talking out of it with a mx segue in between, unless I just don't have 2 tunes that mesh well, then I'll throw in a liner/jingle. I'll also throw one in if I have a 3-song set, usually between the 2nd and 3rd. On occasion, when I feel it's necessary, I'll front-sell a song out of the news, but I try to structure it so I play a really well known tune that images well out of it. I'll always play a liner/jingle out of the news into the next hour, but the half-hour "local news", which is more like a 1-cut daily feature run hourly, I'll throw a tune on directly after that with no liner/ID, but generally attempt to cue a song that has little or no ramp to it for that, all the way maintaining a decent image song.

We almost always go into a stopset with the live wx read. On occasion, seeings how we have no paid ads but PSAs and promos only, if we're running long, we might cut the break in half or altogether and intro a tune right out of the wx. It all depends. All things considered, I'd say the listenability is greatly improved due to the semi-randomness of it all.
 
To me, talking after a jingle during an intro of a song just sounds bad in any daypart but morning - and even then it should be done sparingly. Older folks think it makes the show "move faster". But this isn't 1968 and unless you're in a dedicated '60s format, it just ruins a song, especially new ones and those with an unusual and/or hooky intro ("What I Like About You" The Romantics comes to mind.)

The jingle has it's purpose as a "seperater" between songs during a set. When you talk after one, you create the image that this station has a DJ that just can't shut up and a lot of tune out.

It's a fine balance between personality, music and the best way to showcase both.
 
I totally agree, Mr. Water! ;)

I despise talking over a song after a jingle. I figure if you're going to talk up a song, then you ought to be talking up the station at the same time, at which point the jingle/liner sounds retarded and redundant. And I totally agree about those "hooky" songs. Many times I won't use the ramp on those. At the same time, however, I try to structure the program so that the hooky songs aren't ones I'd be talking over anyhoo.

Aside from that, as a general rule (although I've broken it before), I'll simply liner after the break into a song (with no talk-up). Oh, I just thought of another reason not to talk up after a liner/jingle... if you've got a really catchy one, you don't want to ruin the momentum by saying something not nearly as memorable afterwards, not giving the j/l a chance to resonate with the listener.
 
Kal said:
a 'basic responsibility?' ah... no.
Click to expand...
Disagree here.

Let the jocks do the entertaining, and the imaging to the imaging.

If I'm supposed to play a jingle between two songs, I'll do "Tim McGraw now" followed immediately by a :03 jingle and the song.
Or a dry VO with the positioner over a crossfade of the songs.

Even a jingle package that fits the station often makes the music feel like it stopped when the jingle doesn't match the songs well. And that happens a lot where I work
 
I seem to recall-- and I can validate this on the Musicradio site-- that the WABC DJ's talked before the jingle, after the jingle... heck, sometimes even DURING the jingle... and sometimes right over the vocal of the next track...

Speaking of jingles, OK I know I'm slow here but just in case someone is even slower,
http://www.jingles.com

Having just downloaded the PAMS Jingle compilations, I note a more than passing resemblance between Track 14 on the 1960's sampler and a jingle currently playing on a certain Rochester station that recently flipped to FM.
 
umtrr-author said:
I seem to recall-- and I can validate this on the Musicradio site-- that the WABC DJ's talked before the jingle, after the jingle... heck, sometimes even DURING the jingle... and sometimes right over the vocal of the next track...
Click to expand...

Good point. I'd thought of this too and clearly remember Dan Ingram doing exactly that in PM drive. In fact, there was a "Seventy Seven W-A-B-C" acappella jingle that must have been Big Dan's favorite because it seemed to have been played more than the others. WABC may have had only five jingles in rotation at the time. I don't know. I'm just saying this particular acappella seemed to come up more often. Now, to be fair, I also remember Ron Lundy, WABC midday guy, talking after jingles as well.

Sooooo... what does this prove? I dunno. I always felt awkward talking after a jingle, but I worked dayparts that allowed for it. Seriously, why shouldn't a morning drive jock give a weather update, time and temp after a five minute commercial break. Will listeners recoil and say "oh my god, I hate it when that guy talks after jingles..." or will they be grateful that they heard the latest temp, a time check and a late-breaking traffic item?

Some stations and some jocks break the "rules" and sound good doing it. And who made those rules anyway? Sometimes radio people need to question just why they do the things they do.

The legendary Jeff Kaye years ago was featured on one of those aircheck services saying that "orchestrated chaos" was integral to making radio interesting and entertaining. We see this regularly on the Daily Show, Letterman and Leno. Many think these shows are unrehearsed and off-the-cuff, when in fact the bits are for the most part refined to the "T."

One more thing, a good PD once said, "whether it's obsessing over making an occasional minor mistake or obsessing over talking every song up to the vocal, it's important for jocks to listen to themselves with 'listener ears' as much as 'radio ears.'"
 
I think you may be referring to the "77, WABC" jingle with the chime that played after every song back in the day.

At WABC in the 60s and 70s the jock was in the same room with the board operator. The "chime" jingle was actually dubbed onto the cart at the end of the song. As there was constant conversation in the studio including jock, engineer and sometimes a newsman or sports guy as well, the "chime jingle" served to notify all in the studio that the song had ended. (There were no digital timers in the era. WABC used a GraLab photo timer but it was seldom activated; the jocks merely relied on the jingle.)

Frequently the WABC jocks talked before, after and OVER the "chime time" jingle.

Somewhere in the archives I've got an aircheck of Dan Ingraham goofing on newsman Lyle Dean ("from Chicago") with drop-ins voiced by the anchor. It's interesting because it's recorded pre-processing, right off the console. The levels are horrendous, all over the place. It's as if the engineers completely ignored the VU meter! Good thing Musicradio 77 had tons of compression...

umtrr-author refers to Radio A Go-Go, a 1965 PAMS jingle package, as currently aired all day long - apparently with a straight face - by Legends 102.7. WKBW used several cuts from this package, including the famous "You're On The K-B Merry Go-Go-Round," the intro to their Community Bulletin Board ("Here's what's happening....in K-B Country!!!") This track ran until almost 1970 IIRC. I think it was the sole cut to survive Jeff Kaye's imposition of "Now Radio Comes Alive, You're Listening to KB" in 1967.
 
I forgot - another interesting feature of the WABC Musicradio 77 studio. Thanks to separate audio paths for the microphones, the studio monitor speakers did NOT mute when the mics were open. So the post-song jingle was pretty essential in terms of maintaining decorum.

Most WABC jocks did not wear headphones. Generally the only one sporting the Clevite-Brush jobs were the engineers (those few who paid attention to levels.)
 
Great detail, Bob, thanks for sharing. The closest I got to WABC other than being a listener was meeting Marc Sommers, one of the last DJs there, when he came to my high school's Career Day. (And not surprisingly, he told me even then that radio was not a growth industry.) I think of Harry Harrison and Ron Lundy as being pretty nonchalant when talking right over vocals as well as before and after jingles.

But it was a different time and place. I know you'd joked on another thread about recreating MusicRadio 77 on 1220, but I know I'd listen. And I know that probably makes one of me. I think there are perhaps unrealistically fond memories of things that you grew up with, and 77 was one of them. (So was Palisades Amusement Park, but that's another story for another board.) If I had a nickel for every time I daydreamed about having my name inserted into a WABC jingle... well, I'd at least have a PAMS custom jingle.

I don't doubt you, but I find it pretty incredulous that the PAMS jingle package at Legends is called "Radio a Go-Go"...
 
Yep, "back in the day," PAMS generally released a new jingle package annually. It was eagerly anticipated just like how we used to rush down to the car dealer on that autumn day the next year's model was unveiled. I remember the display windows being secretively soaped over and paper banners heralding the debut date for the latest chome and iron from Detroit.

PAMS used both names and series numbers for their annual new-package releases, and WABC always got pilot versions of the latest stuff from Dallas. I don't recall the series number but Radio A Go-Go was, I believe, the 1965 package. That's what Legends is running. Sounds about as appropriate as using the Dudley Do-Right theme for a traffic bed.
 
According to the framed life-size PAMS jingle-box poster on my studio wall (thanks, Ken R.), "Radio A Go-Go" is indeed PAMS Series 29. The discotheque, known then as a "go-go lounge" arrived in America shortly after the British invasion and was the inspiration for this package.
 
Thanks for the link, Ed. I enjoyed the flashback to some great moments in radio. Quite a trip.
 
I just received a copy of the WTLB , Utica Pams jingles from 1965-66. The home of the Good Guys package. They were co-owned by WMCA so they usually ran the same jingle package and promotions. More and more people hear more and more music on WTLB 1310.
Music, that's our middle name WTLB -(mechanical voice) MUSIC -1310. Very, very cool.
Also, included were the jocks jingle shouts, weather jingles,& iinstrumental beds. I grew up listening to TLB and was a little radio junkie back then. After listening to them I was surprised on how many of the cuts never made it to the air.
Maybe, a lack of carts, or just the program director's (Bill Quinn) decision.
 
We had the same jingle package at the late,great WNYS back in the mid 80s as well. (Not surprising: 98PXY's PD was our consultant). Somewhere, I have an aircheck of me screaming a PSA over a song intro, which ended with "...more information, call us here at 104 WNYS, where Laura Branigan is hitbound with 'Spanish Eddie' ." The song flopped on the charts, disapperared from the playlist a few days later, and was never heard from again!

Scott
 
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