Question about local stations

[livingfruitvirus]

I'm not familiar with the broadcast technology beyond c-band reception, so could someone tell me how a cable network in Vancouver could receive stations from Detroit like WJBK or WXYZ when those stations don't broadcast nationally via satellite?

 

[azumanga]

Who says they don't? They do broadcast via satellite, but you'll need a special digital receiver to get them, likely one that's not available to consumers.

These channels are available on Star Choice (a Canadian DBS satellite service), and available to the Canadian public.

 

[al_atl]

Until 2 or 3 years ago, those signals were on the C-Band of Anik F1. They were also on Ku of Anik F1 for Starchoice subscribers. It was decided to end this duplication and have everyone use the Ku downlink so that the C-Band frequencies could be used for something else. I preferred the C-Band feeds; as long as you kept the snow out of the dish, you had no weather-related outages. So, if you're watching these stations by cable, you're probably getting the same feed that Starchoice subscribers get.

A side note...I've noticed that there is a delay in Toronto on Rogers cable between the local stations off-air (received by antenna) and the cable. I can only guess that Rogers is receiving the locals by satellite? If so, why would they do that? Seems to me that off-air reception would involve less equipment and probably would be more reliable. I know some systems use fiber-optics. But I don't know much about how/why cable systems do the things they do.

 

[newsmark]

there is a delay in Toronto on Rogers cable between the local stations off-air (received by antenna) and the cable.

Is it digital cable? There's a delay in the encoding process that can be from a fraction of a second to several seconds.

Also, I don't know where Canadian TV stands on HDTV. But the cable companies could be taking DTV feeds off air. There's a delay in the encoding process at the station.

 

[al_atl]

Quote from: al_atl on Today at 07:24:25 pm
there is a delay in Toronto on Rogers cable between the local stations off-air (received by antenna) and the cable.

Is it digital cable? There's a delay in the encoding process that can be from a fraction of a second to several seconds.

That's a good question. No. I was comparing CBLT-5 to cable-6, CITY-57 to cable 7, CFTO-9 to cable 8 etc. The set I was watching cable on at the time I noticed this didn't even have a cable box...just straight from the wall to the back of the TV, so no delay happening there.

 

[mjlarochelle]

Yeah, before I had digital cable I noticed that Global on cable was about three seconds behind their CIII-6 signal from Paris. And on digital cable, the delay is even bigger.

 

[livingfruitvirus]

Who says they don't? They do broadcast via satellite, but you'll need a special digital receiver to get them, likely one that's not available to consumers.

These channels are available on Star Choice (a Canadian DBS satellite service), and available to the Canadian public.

I didn't think Canada was allowed to turn American stations into their own superstations. I know any local station is permitted to broadcast nationally there, unlike here, but I still thought for US stations they had to go by the spotbeams.

It annoys me sometimes that Canadians have the option to watch NBC, Fox, ABC, CBS west feeds or east feeds, and yet Americans can't because a federal regulation forbids it.

 

[icstephen]

not only that but if you have the right set up you can get 2 sets of east and west networks (4 cities).

 

[al_atl]

I have Starchoice and I get Buffalo stations for east and Seattle for west feeds of CBS, NBC, ABC. I also get WPIX in NYC, WSBK Boston, WGN Chicago, WTBS Atlanta and KTLA LA. And, of course, Canadian stations from St. Johns, NF to Victoria, BC and all in between. It's odd...Canadian broadcasters seem to be more tightly regulated than US broadcasters, yet in the US it isn't possible to watch a network station via satellite from other than your own local market (with limited exceptions) and in Canada...no problem! I believe you have the NAB to thank for that.

 

[livingfruitvirus]

Just an FYI, WTBS is being removed from national c-band reception next month, so I don't know whether or not Star Choice will still be broadcasting it since it will now only broadcast from a spotbeam over the southeast US. Supposedly Canada is going to switch to the TBS cable station. WPIX, KTLA, WGN, and WSBK will still be broadcast nationally in the US, but the syndex law has rendered a lot of their benefits useless in the US.

The reasons those regulations were put in place was because the superstations, mainly WGN and WTBS, were chipping away at viewership in local markets where they were broadcasting. The big deal was the fact that the superstations were paying local rates to broadcast shows, and yet they were broadcasting them nationally, so they were providing another option for identical programming in markets where they did not pay to broadcast. So the local stations complained to the FCC, and a new syndex law tied in with the Satellite Home Viewer Act was adopted.

Basically, if you have cable, and the city you live in has a Fox affiliate within your range, you are not permitted to watch any other Fox affiliate anywhere UNLESS it is a superstation, or it broadcasts over the same spotbeam in your region. If it is either of those, then it's still not a threat because the local Fox station can enact syndex protection, which forces the cable company to block out Fox programming on the non-local stations, forcing you to watch Fox programs on your local station, and your local station only.

The FCC is very, very protective of local television stations and their affiliations and syndication rights, whereas in Canada the CRTC has allowed non-local stations to intrude into other markets, and the local stations just have to sit on their hands and take it.

 

[al_atl]

Livingfruitvirus, you are correct about the syndication laws. I don't like the syndication law or the satellite home viewer act. Here's how I look at it: If the signal is up there in the sky, those who put the signal there are willing to sell it to me and I have the money to buy the reception equipment and pay the subscription, then it should be between me and them...and the government should butt the hell out. It's a free country and I prefer big brother stay out of my living room, thank you. Why should the government protect a local station from outside competition? Why not also protect super markets from competition? Pass a law where you have to shop at the super market closest to your home. You can't stop by the one you happen to pass on your way home because it's not your "local" market. Why stop there? Make that the law for all retail sales. Whether you're buying a pack of gum or a new automobile, you have to make the purchase from the local retailer where you live. If you live in Toronto, you have to buy a local Toronto newspaper. Not one from Montreal or Ottawa or New York or Detroit etc. Rediculous, eh? So is this...in my view. And for the record, I work for a local television station and I've had this discussion many times. Local stations would be well-served spending their time and resources on being the absolute best station they can be, rather than spending time and resources on limiting the choices of the public and forcing them to watch local only. Be the best, then you don't have to worry about the competition. Just my opinion and worth every cent you paid for it. But what do I know...I've only been in this crazy business for nearly 30 years.

 

[Yeziknoradio]

Rogers cable calls it "Time shifting"

I did not know it's illegal in the states to watch a show 3 hours later on another tv station that people are willing to pay for!

Odd enough, it's only an extra $1.99 cdn added to the cable bill for the American time shift package!

Perhaps also, the American ruling is out of date too...

What's the difference whether a viewer watches the show on the local station or the time shifted station if it's been recorded and watched later anyway?

More and more tv viewing is being done with a PVR or DVR theese days, granting the option to fast forward through the ads, defeating the whole purpose of watching a local tv station in the first place anyway...

 

[compubit]

The one thing that's unique about Canadian broadcasting is that, for the most part, stations are Owned and Operated by their networks. I know that there's another overhaul going on right now, but I'll back up a bit for example purposes:

Networks / Owners:

CBC & SRC (French version) / Canadian Broadcasting Company
CTV / Bell Globemedia
Global / Canwest Global
CH (mini network) / Canwest Global
Citytv / CHUM
A-Channel (mini network) / CHUM
Omni (mini network) / Rogers

(The way I understand it...)
For most viewers, if you're watching CTV, you're watching a CTV-owned station (same for CBC and CH) (I don't believe that there are any Global or Citytv/A-Channel or Omni "affilates").
In the few places that aren't O&O stations (Newfoundland, Interior British Columbia, Lloydminster, Medicine Hat, and Thunder Bay come immediately to mind), the local stations - if they are broadcast on cable/satellite - are given protection from their time zone (i.e., in Thunder Bay, viewers aren't given the opportunity to watch CBC or CTV affiliates from other Eastern Time Zone CBC or CTV affiliates, in order to protect the local CBC/CTV stations). That being said, viewers can watch CBC or CTV stations from Alberta (Mountain Time); some programs, though, may be "Sim-subbed" to protect local ads on simultaneous airings of other stations, though.

Jim

 

[icstephen]

yea the law is stupid....before Directv offered local channels I lived out in the sticks of georgia and I could get every national network except abc & fox from Directv (WSB & WAGA wouldent give me a waiver) there was no way to pick them up ota so FOX & ABC lost out...the moron at WSB actually told me it was illegal for them to give me a waiver. I think the law needs to be changed to at least allow an east and west coast feed since all the networks want to put their best shows on at the same time...this doesnt matter to me anymore since i have alternative options. I still dont get WAGA very well but FOX doesnt show much worth watching anyway so its no loss...But back in the old dasys when I couldent get a waiver I was mad becouse FOX was still relavent at that time.

 

[livingfruitvirus]

The one thing that's unique about Canadian broadcasting is that, for the most part, stations are Owned and Operated by their networks. I know that there's another overhaul going on right now, but I'll back up a bit for example purposes:

That's true. In the US, there are limitations on how many stations one company can own. Fox Television Stations owns something like 30 Fox affiliates, out of over 120. Same with CBS Television, Disney-ABC Television Group, NBC Universal, and any company that owns a network affiliation. There's many many many companies that own television stations, like Tribune Media (only owns CW affiliates, including three superstations), Raycom Media, Sinclair Broadcasting, Clear Channel Communications, Gannett Broadcasting, Meredith Corporation, Entravision, Cox Enterprises, and so on and so on, including a lot of local mom-and-pop companies. There's too many situations where one company only owns an affiliate on one coast, or one town even. However, even if the ownership was as consolidated as it is in Canada by network affiliation, local stations are not permitted to uplink to national satellite anyway.

 

[azumanga]

There's many many many companies that own television stations, like Tribune Media (only owns CW affiliates, including three superstations)...

Actually, Tribune also owns quite a few Fox affiliates, a couple affiliated with MyNetworkTV, and one ABC affiliate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribune_Broadcasting

Also, Tribune owns four superstations -- WPIX, WGN, KWGN and KTLA.

 

[Yeziknoradio]

The one thing that's unique about Canadian broadcasting is that, for the most part, stations are Owned and Operated by their networks. I know that there's another overhaul going on right now, but I'll back up a bit for example purposes:

Networks / Owners:

CBC & SRC (French version) / Canadian Broadcasting Company
CTV / Bell Globemedia
Global / Canwest Global
CH (mini network) / Canwest Global
Citytv / CHUM
A-Channel (mini network) / CHUM
Omni (mini network) / Rogers

(The way I understand it...)
For most viewers, if you're watching CTV, you're watching a CTV-owned station (same for CBC and CH) (I don't believe that there are any Global or Citytv/A-Channel or Omni "affilates").
In the few places that aren't O&O stations (Newfoundland, Interior British Columbia, Lloydminster, Medicine Hat, and Thunder Bay come immediately to mind), the local stations - if they are broadcast on cable/satellite - are given protection from their time zone (i.e., in Thunder Bay, viewers aren't given the opportunity to watch CBC or CTV affiliates from other Eastern Time Zone CBC or CTV affiliates, in order to protect the local CBC/CTV stations). That being said, viewers can watch CBC or CTV stations from Alberta (Mountain Time); some programs, though, may be "Sim-subbed" to protect local ads on simultaneous airings of other stations, though.

Jim

CJON in Newfoundland is independent and runs some CTV content, but other programs seem to be coming from other sources.

BTW, effective immediately, there is no more Chum group.
CTV bought them, but the CRTC said no to the number of tv stations they'd end up with, so

CITY, (joining OMNI in ownership) now = Rogers. (Rogers also owns Sportsnet)

CRTC granted Rogers permission to own all the CITY TV's as of Sept. 28th 2007 (a few days ago).

Reference link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070929.RCRTC29/TPStory/TPBusiness/Television/

 

[compubit]

Yes, I know that there's even more consolidation going on in Canada, but picked a time about a year ago to make my point.

The downside of what's happening in Canada, is that everything looks the same. It doesn't matter whether you're in Toronto, Vancouver, Winnipeg, Moose Jaw, or Sault Ste. Marie, your local news is "CBC News" or "CTV News" or "Global News" - all with the same graphics and similar sets... Yes a few smaller markets have locally-owned stations, but from what I understand, you probably wouldn't want to watch the newscasts there... (and yes, that's a model often used around the world...)

I do like the individuality of US local stations, and hope we don't get any more "cookie cutter" stations here (aka the Fox O&O stations...)

Jim

 

[mjlarochelle]

The downside of what's happening in Canada, is that everything looks the same. It doesn't matter whether you're in Toronto, Vancouver, Winnipeg, Moose Jaw, or Sault Ste. Marie, your local news is "CBC News" or "CTV News" or "Global News" - all with the same graphics and similar sets

With all the stations from the same network available, it makes things confusing for the average viewer. Especially in places where more than one station from a network is available on cable, for example part of Hamilton where both CKCO and CFTO are available.

In addition to that, the amount of local programming is deplorable on most of the Canadian stations compared to most big-3 American network affiliates. Local programming is an afterthought in Canada, and yet it is the cornerstone of revenue for American stations.

 

[livingfruitvirus]

In addition to that, the amount of local programming is deplorable on most of the Canadian stations compared to most big-3 American network affiliates. Local programming is an afterthought in Canada, and yet it is the cornerstone of revenue for American stations.

It's not what it used to be. There was a time when local stations produced original, low-budget programs. They were nothing flashy, but they really catered the locals. When I lived in Buffalo I woke up each Saturday to Rocketship 7 on (WKBW-TV, channel 7) which was a local kids' show that also showed classic cartoons. They would have contests with prizes from local franchises, have reporters do local kid-related segments (Commander Tom came to my school once) and would occasionally do remote signings.

Anyway, there's more examples, but most local original programs have fallen to syndicated fare. In the 1990s, syndicated shows slowly consumed the afternoon lineups, and later the late night lineups on the weaker affiliated networks. The local news still has a strong presence, but many of those original shows are long dead. Local morning shows are still thriving, even with national morning shows like Good Morning America and The Today Show competing.

Now radio on the other hand is ready to toss out locality on their stations because they'll do anything to squeeze blood from a rock. It's amazing how AM/FM radio companies are so desperate for money that they'll fire all their local hosts and replace them with syndicated hosts, just because it's cheaper.