Question about rural HD reception

[Mike Walker]

I live in a rural area (Wilkes County, Northwest North Carolina). While I can receive MANY FM stations which are HD (from Greensboro, Charlotte, Hickory, Davidson, Spindale, etc.), and receive most of them in pretty decent (noise-free) stereo even on a portable with it's onboard "whip" (Eton E5, Grundig S350, Sangean ATS-909), I am from 40-70 miles from most of these stations.

What I'm wondering is, if I buy an HD radio, such as the Accurian from Radio Shack, will I receive ANY HD? WDAV in Davidson (89.9) puts an EXTREMELY strong signal into my neighborhood...full quieting even on a Walkman portable, but again I'm more than 60 miles from their tower). I had a roof antenna with rotor, but a storm took it down over the summer (after 20 years), and since I get decent (analog) reception with a Terk amplified antenna, I haven't bothered to replace it. So I'd be using an indoor antenna probably...Terk Amplified, a dipole, or "wabbit ears", along with a Terk AM Advantage for AM reception (though there are no AM HD stations anywhere around here, I live in hope of catching WOR or WLAC early in the morning).

I LOVE radios. You wouldn't believe how many AM Stereo radios I bought. And I collect shortwave (and other) radios. LOVE those radio toys! But even I don't want to throw money away!

What do you think, guys...would I get anything for my money if I bought an HD radio? Would I receive any HD from the dozen or more HD stations whose analog signals are clearly audible in my rural location?


Mike Walker

 

[Tom Wells]

I think you'd do well if your western NC location is, as most of west NC, a higher elevation than the cities you are trying to receive.
In FM, line of sight makes a very big difference. If your reception is relatively flutter-free, I would expect you can get the HD to decode.
If you can't you may have to get the tower back up to get a cleaner shot at these stations.
Ant amplifiers often add noise, which may hurt more than having a weaker signal.

 

[700WLW]

I live in a rural area (Wilkes County, Northwest North Carolina). While I can receive MANY FM stations which are HD (from Greensboro, Charlotte, Hickory, Davidson, Spindale, etc.), and receive most of them in pretty decent (noise-free) stereo even on a portable with it's onboard "whip" (Eton E5, Grundig S350, Sangean ATS-909), I am from 40-70 miles from most of these stations.

What I'm wondering is, if I buy an HD radio, such as the Accurian from Radio Shack, will I receive ANY HD? WDAV in Davidson (89.9) puts an EXTREMELY strong signal into my neighborhood...full quieting even on a Walkman portable, but again I'm more than 60 miles from their tower). I had a roof antenna with rotor, but a storm took it down over the summer (after 20 years), and since I get decent (analog) reception with a Terk amplified antenna, I haven't bothered to replace it. So I'd be using an indoor antenna probably...Terk Amplified, a dipole, or "wabbit ears", along with a Terk AM Advantage for AM reception (though there are no AM HD stations anywhere around here, I live in hope of catching WOR or WLAC early in the morning).

I LOVE radios. You wouldn't believe how many AM Stereo radios I bought. And I collect shortwave (and other) radios. LOVE those radio toys! But even I don't want to throw money away!

What do you think, guys...would I get anything for my money if I bought an HD radio? Would I receive any HD from the dozen or more HD stations whose analog signals are clearly audible in my rural location?


Mike Walker

I would check out our thread on HD Radio sensitivity, then draw your own conclusions - you won't get an unbiased answer from me !

 

[hipporadio]

Man... This is "waterboard torture" to post on this thread. To the guy from the mountains of N.C. - BEAUTIFUL country, but NOT an IBOC-frienjdly area on FM. My (limited) experience with IBOC FM requires "line of sight" reception of the transmitter's signal WITHIN the 70dbu contour to insure that HD-Radio "works". As terrain affects FM (more than ANY variable), I can't imagine "dependable" IBOC in the mountains of western N.C. I drive thru and canoe there often, and "analog FM" is NOT dependable... So how could IBOC?... NOT!

 

[hipporadio]

OK, I’ll try this again, as my original replies would not post—other than to repeat the original “quotes”.

You live in mountainous North Carolina... I visit there often to canoe on your beautiful French Broad River. Current analog radio in your locale on both AM and FM is a challenge. HD radio over much more friendly domains in the flat Midwest is “undependable”—even on high-powered Class B FM and, in most areas—Class A/B/C FM and most high-powered AM signals as well. I can’t imagine your signals attenuated by the mountainous and very rural terrain would be any better.

The current IBOC technology is defective and, more importantly—DESTRUCTIVE on BOTH bands. At this point in the technology time line, the “Cartel” promoting it is desperate—refusing to admit poor receiver performance and sales reviews by seeking only to PERSONALLY DEGRADE those who speak up with technical knowledge and the truth. They have become little more than over-compensated “Frat Boys” caught in a hazing incident—when asked to account for their misbehavior—responding “You don’t like us ‘cause you aren’t one of us”. OH—this is so sad—except, the “market” of casual radio users seem to remain uninterested in their product and the very few overpriced receivers that bear their lackluster technology.

The problem here is that a very small corporate “cartel” sought to benefit from the failure of AM Stereo back in the 80s thru their lobby to a disinterested FCC-- willing to “pass on” the “digital radio debate” to a group destined to “write their own rules”-- then prosper from them despite heightened radio cost due to internally-destined “royalties”. This whole “situation” STINKS... And AMERICA’S “First World” is THE ONLY place on earth that is buying into it.

 

[Mike Walker]

ARRGH! While I appreciate your input, Wilkes County is NOT "in the mountains". Yes, we're surrounded by mountains (to the North and West, anyhow), but the incorporated parts of the county are in the FOOTHILLS.

Probably a small point TO YOU, but in the winter, when our temperature is 10 or more degrees warmer than places which ARE in the mountains like West Jefferson, Sparta, and Boone, we often get rain while they get snow...AND LOTS OF IT!

Of course we get snow too, but NOT BEING "IN THE MOUNTAINS", our winters are milder. There are NO SKI SLOPES IN WILKES!

Now I DO get a MONSTER signal from at least one HD signal...WDAV in Davidson pegs the signal strength meter on my Drake SW-8, and is completely quieted even on a cheap Walkman radio. So I'd wager that one at least would come in "in HD'. But their internet stream sounds WONDERFUL, and is at a higher bitrate than ANY "HD Radio", so I'm not sure it's worth it for that.

If we rural listeners get no HD at all, despite the fact that a dozen or so "HD stations" are audible on analog radios, what f@@@ing good is it??? I STILL get great AM stereo from the few stations around here that still use it! (And by "around here" I mean 1kw AM stations 40 or more miles away!)

 

[hipporadio]

Now I DO get a MONSTER signal from at least one HD signal...WDAV in Davidson pegs the signal strength meter on my Drake SW-8, and is completely quieted even on a cheap Walkman radio. So I'd wager that one at least would come in "in HD'. But their internet stream sounds WONDERFUL, and is at a higher bitrate than ANY "HD Radio", so I'm not sure it's worth it for that.

If we rural listeners get no HD at all, despite the fact that a dozen or so "HD stations" are audible on analog radios, what f@@@ing good is it??? I STILL get great AM stereo from the few stations around here that still use it! (And by "around here" I mean 1kw AM stations 40 or more miles away!)

Mike you make the point... ["But their internet stream sounds WONDERFUL, and is at a higher bitrate than ANY "HD Radio"]... So WHY on the net if all of this "HD IS the end all"? YES... Even broadcast outlets that clearly don't have the same interests as "net outlets" manage to end up there--GREAT that they do--and some do so in BETTER QUALITY than they are simulcasted in their pathetic IBOC HD presentations.

Do you realize that the compression alogorithm used in IBOC transmission IS OLDER then the early RealAudio schemes used on the net many years ago? IBOC has been bounced around since the mid '90s--'NOT hard to imagine that a modern-day MicroSoft WMA stream could sound better! Add to this, the FACT that EVERY station on AM choosing to HD broadcast MUST restrict main channel analog bandwidth to 5-6kHz, and you actually have an overall degradation in quality for the MAJORITY of folks who listen... AM stations that choose IBOC sound worse to most of their listeners

Consider that (in general) IBOC transmission requires a modern-day transmitter like the Harris solid state DX seies (which provides exceptional audio quality). But that awesome DX is band-limited for NO other reason than to accommodate the IBOC transmission detected by less than ONE-PERCENT of the listeners. An awesome transmitter limited in its mass-appeal potential due to a "crap-shoot" aimed at the other one-percent? Doesn't something very "tilted" (and wrong) seem to be the "mission" here. Add to this THE FACT that transmitter is now producing adjacent channel interference at magnitudes MUCH HIGHER than its ancient cousins would have been permitted, and ANY logical person (not holding stock in a member of the corporate IBOC "cartel") begins to SERIOUSLY wonder!

Now, are you wondering Mike?

 

[KE4KLS_Radio]

Hi Mike,

I used to live in Wilkes over 15 years ago (Mulberry), and have since moved to E. Central FL near Daytona. If I remember, WKSK and WATA used to be AM stereo (I worked at 'ATA for a whileback in the late-80's). Are they still in stereo? (It seemed like many stations in that area kept up with the latest technology). Also, somewhat related to IBOC, are you able to receive many terrestrial TV signals off the air in HD / digital in Wilkes? I can get about 12 HD / digital TV channels from the Orlando area (since the terrain is flat here), and wonder how the foothills would affect digital TV signals in that area.

I remember you on WIFM and I think also on 3WC. From reading your earlier posts I recall you are now at WKBC, do say hello to Stoney over there.

73's,
Bill Mitchell
[email protected]

 

[hipporadio]

I STILL get great AM stereo from the few stations around here that still use it! (And by "around here" I mean 1kw AM stations 40 or more miles away!)

Would that be 1450 WATA in Boone, NC? I've been there several times and 'ATA is a nice station! And didn't the Blowing Rock station up on 1510 get a lower freq and a bucket of power?

 

[SUPERCASTER]

If you decide to try an HD Radio, get an iron clad 100% satisfaction return guarantee, with no hidden restocking charges, and let us know how you make out.
I believe you are likely to be disappointed with HD Radio.

 

[Mike Walker]

Yes I'm aware of all of the codec and bandwidth restrictions of HD radio. I've followed it very closely. Although I've made my living in the on-air/production/programming/management side of things, I'm a "geek", and have always been obsessed with audio and rf technology (as well as computer technology), so i've followed the technical developments very carefully.

The first time I heard a working demo of IBOC was at the NAB Radio Show in New Orleans in 1995...the (now defunct) USADR system. Sounded great (including the AM system), and I don't remember all the "buzz" about occupied bandwidth. Of course it never got to this stage, so who knows what the truth would have been (about USADR).

WATA WAS a great radio station, but now it's a run-of-the-mill "open-the-pot-and go cut some spots" network talk outlet. YAWN! It's co-owned with the Blowing Rock AM (now 10,000 watts on 1200...with screaming conservative talk...Limbaugh, Liddy, the usual suspects). I don't think 'ATA is still stereo.

WKSK had some problems with their stereo system caused by a lightning strike. They recently (a couple of years ago) increased their power to 5kw, which meant a new transmitter. I don't think they stayed stereo, because Jan was anticipating IBOC. At any rate, they have probably the best technical quality of any AM in this area...it's very "open" and "fm-like" even on my car radio. WNNC in Newton is still stereo. WKGX in Lenoir may be as well, but they're all sports, so what does it matter?

As for Bill Mitchell, I remember you too. Yes I did once work at 3WC (1984-88), as well as WIFM (1974-77, 1990-98), WKBC (1977-1980), WNNC (1980-1984), WFMX (1988-1990), WXRC Charlotte (1998-2002), parttime at WKSK (1998-1999), and I'm now Production Mgr. at WKBC (by proxy...I have a studio at home called "The Productio Room". Four other people produce for me). I've also (from my home studio) done production for WNNC, WIRC (Newton and Hickory), WXRC (Charlotte), WGDN (Gladwyn Michigan), WKSK, and a bunch more. There you have my resume'. The tape is in the mail

I guess I'll pass (for now) on HD radio. I WANT one of the damn things, but the logical side of my brain says "there's more available NOW on internet radio). I have a wireless network at home, and a little Dell Axim X51v which makes a SUPERB "pocket radio" for listening to stations in the "interweb" (which, of course, is a series of tubes!)

I heard some samples yesterday of several AM HD stations, and was shocked at how poor the "HD" audio quality was...with that phasey, gargling type of artifact that dialup internet audio used to have...back when Monica was under Bill Clinton's desk, and Gore was taking credit for inventing the internet.

 

[KE4KLS_Radio]

Mike,

Thanks for the insight, I haven't been to the high country in a while so I've been out of the loop...

As for HD radio, from what I have listened to on AM appears to be a big disappointment as the stations that use it cause a LOT of splatter and hash, so if I DX or listen to an out of town adjacent station 10 or 20+ kHz from the IBOC station, forget it. The extra interference will continue to drive more listeners away from AM. Which in my opinion HD shouldn't be implemented on AM and perhaps the FCC should probably set up channels 2-6 as a digital radio signal band for AMer's once the analog TV signals are sunset in 2009. As for FM, the interference doesn't seem to be as bad and the additional programming alternatives (HD-2 & HD-3 channels) seems promising. Z Radio 88.3 in Orlando plans to HD two other program formats: http://zradio.org/index/articles/00000051/ so even non-commercial stations are getting on the bandwagon. But unless the car manufacturers and retail stores such as Wal-Mart and Target make the receivers readily available and the general public perceives HD radio as a real improvement, then it will probably go the way of AM stereo. If HD radio ever really catches on, perhaps future receivers can have codecs upgraded in the same way one would update a Real Audio Player, etc.

 

[Mike Walker]

Bill I couldn't agree more that the interference on the AM band caused by HD would be disastrous...particularly at night.

I read somewhere, I think in Radio World (maybe on radiointel.com) about a proposal to use the 28mhz portion of the HF spectrum for digital radio. It's kind of like the US Constitution...nobody's using it, so why not?

 

[Tom Wells]

Ummm, 28 mHz is the 10m amateur radio allocation. But maybe 28.5 to 29 Mhz.
Hey, I have an idea! Let's honor our ITU agreements and get our military applications out of the band that DRM is using in Europe!
I would personally like to see broadcast at 30-40 mhz, where coverage could be several hundred miles, but sat radio has already
filled the need for such a wide-area service.

 

[Chuck]

Actually, it is the 26 MHz band which has been proposed for DRM. There was a demo of it at the Spring NAB show, running under an experimental license in Las Vegas.

The idea is that 26 MHz is sparsely used almost all over the world. It is mostly pirate CB radio operators. I'm not sure 26 MHz is enough bandwidth to accommodate a significant number of stations, but anything would be better than the path we're on right now.

I've been a proponent of resurrecting the Armstrong band for quite some time. It makes sense to me, although I’m told that the California Highway Patrol still uses those frequencies. It seems to be that they would really benefit by going into UHF Public Service bands with trunked radios. In any scenario, somebody would have to be moved, which is probably not a very popular idea with anyone who has to pay to move.

I also think it would make good sense to expand the current FM band down into TV channel 6 and probably down into channel 5 as well. That would solve a lot of problems. It could accommodate the NAB's desire for FM translators for daytime AM stations, give digital radio a place to go, make the LPFM people happy, take care of the 10,000 or so pending translator applications, and even give you some room to grow. You could even use cheap radios for his service. Unfortunately, Congress is drooling at the money earned by auctioning off those frequencies, so it probably won't happen.

 

[Mike Walker]

You're absolutely right, Chuck. It's 26mhz that's been proposed, not 28. My bad. Supposedly there's plenty of spectrum for all AM stations, even factoring in a higher bitrate than "HD Radio" allows.

Resurrecting "The Armstrong Band" is a good idea, too.

As for channels five and six, I have a nagging suspicion that political pressure will keep analog tv from actually being shut off. (Yes, I know a deadline has been set. A lot can change in the interim...like Congress next Tuesday. Not saying it will, just that it COULD!) The general public has NO IDEA that this is coming, and every non-technical person I've talked with thinks it's a bad idea. The real reason for shutting off analog service is to allow the government to sell the spectrum. I guess we'll see!

 

[Chuck]

The real reason for shutting off analog service is to allow the government to sell the spectrum. I guess we'll see!

Whenever there is any doubt, always follow the money....