Question about TV channel spacing

[IM42A]

Whoa Nellie! I just found a 2011 TVFB on eBay for $11 and I snagged it. In retrospect, I suppose I could always have had it drop-shipped directly to you, but I didn't think of that. You are welcome to borrow it for the site, once I get it, then send it back once you've scanned it into PDF.

Granted, the later editions weren't as much fun, after they removed the viewership by county statistics, but still, it's something. In the mid-1970s, they quit doing the shaded maps, and that, too, was kind of a buzzkill. I am in the process of moving books from the house where my son lives, to the house my parents left me, and I have a dedicated shelf for TVFB, BCYB, TV Guides, and other TV-related ephemera, right beside my receiver.

 

[IM42A]

And it just keeps getting better! Abebooks had a 1994 TVFB for $10 and I snagged that one too. I know you already have that on the WRH website, but it was just too good to pass up a hard copy.

 

[genius]

Baltimore never had a Channel 4. That was WRC-TV Washington. They are 200 miles apart.

Baltimore does have channels 2, 11, and 13 though. It’s falls a little short of 200 miles (like about 180) but I’m going to assume it’s spaced far enough away with the help of directional signals.

 

[davideduardo]

Whoa Nellie! I just found a 2011 TVFB on eBay for $11 and I snagged it. In retrospect, I suppose I could always have had it drop-shipped directly to you, but I didn't think of that. You are welcome to borrow it for the site, once I get it, then send it back once you've scanned it into PDF.

Granted, the later editions weren't as much fun, after they removed the viewership by county statistics, but still, it's something. In the mid-1970s, they quit doing the shaded maps, and that, too, was kind of a buzzkill. I am in the process of moving books from the house where my son lives, to the house my parents left me, and I have a dedicated shelf for TVFB, BCYB, TV Guides, and other TV-related ephemera, right beside my receiver.

You can write about that to [email protected] and we can make arrangements. I will pay the shipping, but have some other questions too.

 

[tripinva]

One question I wanted to ask was how accurate was the 200 mile rule for stations? I.e A Channel 4 had to be 200 miles from another market’s channel 4.

But there were exceptions to this rule, namely Albany & NYC and Baltimore & NYC.

It wasn't 200 miles, but there were several different distance separations. The rules are gone now, but here's an old copy:

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.ecfr.gov

Zone I: https://www.rabbitears.info/Zone1.jpg
Zone III: Basically right around the Gulf of Mexico, including all of Florida.

The reference was to 13 in Albany, NYC and Washington, and the answer is that at various times over the years, the FCC has been willing to allow short spacing in order to solve what are largely political problems.

13 was dropped in for Albany as part of the larger shuffle that swapped 5 and 8 in Rochester and Syracuse (to allow for 9 in Syracuse and 13 in Albany) and moved 13 to 2 in Utica, so that ABC could have VHF affiliates in Rochester, Syracuse and Albany.

The FCC's original plan was to make Albany an all UHF market by moving WRGB to 47, but GE was a powerful political force that pushed back hard, and so a lot of compromises were made to get 13 and 10 into Albany in place of 35 and 41.

That's why 13 never moved from Bald Mountain in Troy until the analog era ended, and why 10 was first allocated to Vails Mills, out beyond Amsterdam, and then finally was able to go to the Helderbergs with a DA to protect short spacing to both Rochester and Providence (and I think Montreal, too!)

This is right, but there really weren't very many cases of actual short-spacing. I can only think of six off the top of my head: 10 and 13 in Albany, 8 in Knoxville, 8 in Johnstown (PA), 11 in Charleston (WV), and 13 in Salt Lake City. 10 and 13 you've explained well, but the other four were the result of a very long FCC proceeding to consider dropping in additional short-spaced allotments. There were some 100 or so proposals, but only those four ultimately came to fruition.

More often were cases of bending things a bit. To give an example, the original Table of Allotments had 2, 11, and 13 assigned to Pittsburgh. 4 was ever so slightly too close to Columbus to be used in Pittsburgh. People quickly saw that 4 should work, and someone got 4 dropped in at Irwin, PA. Nobody was really fooled by this, and the FCC ultimately relented and said that as long as the actual transmitter sites were appropriately spaced, the cities themselves could be short. So WTAE transmits from east of Pittsburgh to this day because of that history. WTVF in Nashville has a similar story.

- Trip

 

[bpatrick]

Hello all. Normally when we see tv channels in a large city market they are spaced at least 2 channels apart. Obviously the bandwidth is large, just like FM. Why is it for many years NY has had channel 4, and 5, one channel apart? I have never seen that anywhere else. Thanks for any responses.

Some places with both analog 4 and 5:

Los Angeles KNBC/4, KTLA/5
San Francisco KRON/4, KPIX/5
Washington, DC WRC/4, WTTG/5
Honolulu KITV/4, KGMB/5 (KGMB was formerly on Channel 9)
Boston WBZ/4, WCVB/5
Minneapolis/St. Paul WCCO/4, KSTP/5
Kansas City WDAF/4, KCTV/5
St. Louis KMOV/4, KSDK/5
Albuquerque KOB/4, KNME/5
New York WNBC/4, WNYW/5
Raleigh/Durham WUNC/4, WRAL/5
Oklahoma City KFOR/4, KOCO/5
Charleston, SC WCIV/4, WCSC/5 (WCIV is now on 36.2)
Nashville WSMV/4, WTVF/5
Dallas/Fort Worth KDFW/4, KXAS/5
San Antonio WOAI/4, KENS/5
Lower Rio Grande Valley KGBT/4, KRGV/5
Salt Lake City KTVX/4, KSL/5
Seattle KOMO/4, KING/5

These are all I can think of.

 

[IM42A]

It wasn't 200 miles, but there were several different distance separations. The rules are gone now, but here's an old copy:

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.ecfr.gov

Zone I: https://www.rabbitears.info/Zone1.jpg
Zone III: Basically right around the Gulf of Mexico, including all of Florida.



This is right, but there really weren't very many cases of actual short-spacing. I can only think of six off the top of my head: 10 and 13 in Albany, 8 in Knoxville, 8 in Johnstown (PA), 11 in Charleston (WV), and 13 in Salt Lake City. 10 and 13 you've explained well, but the other four were the result of a very long FCC proceeding to consider dropping in additional short-spaced allotments. There were some 100 or so proposals, but only those four ultimately came to fruition.

More often were cases of bending things a bit. To give an example, the original Table of Allotments had 2, 11, and 13 assigned to Pittsburgh. 4 was ever so slightly too close to Columbus to be used in Pittsburgh. People quickly saw that 4 should work, and someone got 4 dropped in at Irwin, PA. Nobody was really fooled by this, and the FCC ultimately relented and said that as long as the actual transmitter sites were appropriately spaced, the cities themselves could be short. So WTAE transmits from east of Pittsburgh to this day because of that history. WTVF in Nashville has a similar story.

- Trip

There was also WSJK-2 in Sneedville TN. They had to shoehorn it in to protect WFMY, WSB, WDCN, and, I'm assuming, WLWD/WDTN, there was just this one little tight space where they could do that. The Irwin situation sounds similar.

This never quite worked for Knoxville (WSJK was intended to serve both Knoxville and the Tri-Cities), so eventually you had WKOP-15 as a simulcast.

 

[vchimpanzee]

8 in Knoxville

When I lived where Knoxville was in my TV Guide, there was no Channel 8.

 

[vchimpanzee]

By 1981 they had increased to 273 kw but still barely grazed Gaston County, and had gone up to 656.1 kw by 1984 with little change. They stayed that way through at least 2002 (the last year for which I have TVFB data).

I was living in the area then but I was unaware they had increased power at the time. I just remember the very limited signal range in the Television Factbook.

 

[IM42A]

When I lived where Knoxville was in my TV Guide, there was no Channel 8.

There wouldn't have been until 1988. In a nutshell, WTVK-26 moved to channel 8, took a new call sign (WKXT), and picked up the CBS affliation within months of one another, and then became WVLT in 1997. WTVK had been trying to get channel 8 assigned to Knoxville since 1960 (!).

Long story short, WTVK-26 is now WVLT-8. Fun fact, WKPT-19 in Kingsport was for a long time reliant upon WTVK for its ABC feed.

 

[NoDakObserver]

Also Miami, Denver, Omaha, Winnipeg for 6 and 7 in the same market. Even more rare were the markets with both 13 and 14, if only because 14 was excluded from use in a lot of larger cities because that part of the UHF spectrum was shared with two-way radio services.

Albuquerque, El Paso and later Houston had 13 and 14 in the same market. I can't readily think of any others.

Minot, ND has KXMC (CBS) on 13 and KMCY (ABC) on 14.

 

[bpatrick]

There wouldn't have been until 1988. In a nutshell, WTVK-26 moved to channel 8, took a new call sign (WKXT), and picked up the CBS affliation within months of one another, and then became WVLT in 1997. WTVK had been trying to get channel 8 assigned to Knoxville since 1960 (!).

Long story short, WTVK-26 is now WVLT-8. Fun fact, WKPT-19 in Kingsport was for a long time reliant upon WTVK for its ABC feed.

Channel 8 was one of several VHF drop-ins; Channel 11 in Charleston/Huntington and Channel 13 in Salt Lake City are two others I can think of. WVLT got the CBS affiliation when WBIR went to NBC in 1988. I suspect, however, that three stations on analog 8 had to be protected: WNPT, WGTV, and WGHP. You no doubt know that WKPT is no longer ABC in the Tri-Cities; ABC is on WJHL/11.2.

 

[IM42A]

Channel 8 was one of several VHF drop-ins; Channel 11 in Charleston/Huntington and Channel 13 in Salt Lake City are two others I can think of. WVLT got the CBS affiliation when WBIR went to NBC in 1988. I suspect, however, that three stations on analog 8 had to be protected: WNPT, WGTV, and WGHP. You no doubt know that WKPT is no longer ABC in the Tri-Cities; ABC is on WJHL/11.2.

Well aware of that. When WKPT lost the ABC affiliation, they basically folded up as a full-service station, closed their news department, and now broadcast Cozi TV as well as other diginets. WKPT always had a troubled news department, that market was really too small for three newscasts.

WVLT was probably far enough away from WGHP for it not to be an issue as regards short-spacing. It could arguably have been an issue with WCHS Charleston WV (207 miles), but that would probably be safe, especially given the terrain.

Another drop-in was WWCP-8 in Johnstown PA. They really had to work to squeeze that one in, given WGAL, WWJ, and possibly even WCHS. The WGAL situation was a real hat trick, don't know how they got by with that.

 

[vchimpanzee]

There wouldn't have been until 1988. In a nutshell, WTVK-26 moved to channel 8, took a new call sign (WKXT), and picked up the CBS affliation within months of one another, and then became WVLT in 1997. WTVK had been trying to get channel 8 assigned to Knoxville since 1960 (!).

Long story short, WTVK-26 is now WVLT-8. Fun fact, WKPT-19 in Kingsport was for a long time reliant upon WTVK for its ABC feed.

There was a Channel 26 in my TV Guide.

 

[bpatrick]

There was a Channel 26 in my TV Guide.

WTVK was on Channel 26 until the drop-in of Channel 8. I remember WTVK as an ABC affiliate and also when ABC switched to WATE (Channel 6) with WTVK going to NBC. Knoxville viewers, prior to the ABC-NBC swap in 1979, were prone to watch ABC on WLOS Asheville, NC, which (on Channel 13) came in better than Channel 26. Same was true in the Tri-Cities before WKPT signed on, and thanks to a system of translators, WLOS had viewers even in eastern Kentucky.

 

[JeeperOne]

Just as Channels 4 and 5 could be assigned to the same city (NYC, LA,, Boston, etc.) so too could Channels 6 and 7. It wasn't as common. But because Channels 5 and 6 are separated from both Channels 2 through 4 and 7 through 13, it happened in a few places...

--The Spokane market had 6 KHQ-TV NBC and 7 KSPS PBS.

--The Boise market had 6 KIVI ABC and 7 KTVB NBC.

Denver has KRMA 6 (PBS) & KLZ 7 (CBS, now KMGH 7 ABC)

 

[Mark Roberts]

Denver has KRMA 6 (PBS) & KLZ 7 (CBS, now KMGH 7 ABC)

Denver didn't get 5 because Pueblo and Cheyenne got it. Eleven and 13 are also in Colorado Springs, same market as Pueblo. The top VHF channel in the Denver was 12, the public TV station licensed to Broomfield (!!) that is overshadowed by KRMA/Rocky Mountain PBS.

 

[Gregg.]

Also Miami, Denver, Omaha, Winnipeg for 6 and 7 in the same market. Even more rare were the markets with both 13 and 14, if only because 14 was excluded from use in a lot of larger cities because that part of the UHF spectrum was shared with two-way radio services.

Albuquerque, El Paso and later Houston had 13 and 14 in the same market. I can't readily think of any others.

Salt Lake City has two of the unusual back-to-back channel line-ups...

KTVX ABC 4 and KSL-TV NBC 5

KSTU Fox 13 and KJZZ Ind. 14
.

 

[bpatrick]

Salt Lake City has two of the unusual back-to-back channel line-ups...

KTVX ABC 4 and KSL-TV NBC 5

KSTU Fox 13 and KJZZ Ind. 14
.

Some places I can think of with both 6 and 7:

Birmingham WBRC/6 and WCIQ/7 (Mt. Cheaha State Park)
Little Rock KEMV/6 (PBS) and KATV/7 (ABC)
Denver KRMA/6 and KMGH/7
Miami WTVJ/6 and WSVN/7
Boise KIVI/6 and KTVB/7
Omaha WOWT/6 and KETV/7
WIchita Falls/Lawton KAUZ/6 and KSWO/7
Spokane KHQ/6 and KSPS/7

Others?

 

[IM42A]

WTVK was on Channel 26 until the drop-in of Channel 8. I remember WTVK as an ABC affiliate and also when ABC switched to WATE (Channel 6) with WTVK going to NBC. Knoxville viewers, prior to the ABC-NBC swap in 1979, were prone to watch ABC on WLOS Asheville, NC, which (on Channel 13) came in better than Channel 26. Same was true in the Tri-Cities before WKPT signed on, and thanks to a system of translators, WLOS had viewers even in eastern Kentucky.

WLOS was the default ABC affiliate for the Tri-Cities market before WKPT started up, and as you note, for many Knoxville-market viewers, it was their de facto default ABC affiliate as well, due to problems getting a good picture on WTVK.

In Kentucky, WLOS was on cable as far north as Manchester, Corbin, and London. Don't know how much, if any, viewership WLOS has in Kentucky anymore, but it wasn't a long, long time ago that I saw reference made to them on the WTVQ website as an ABC affiliate some viewers might receive (don't recall the context, may have been some thing about the digital transition, they mentioned WCHS as well). Keep in mind that WLOS was the only ABC affiliate on VHF in a very large area stretching from Cincinnati (yes, Cincinnati) and Huntington in the north, down to Chattanooga (not so far) and Augusta GA in the south, and they had the mother of all catbird seats (unless you count Mount Washington) up on Mount Pisgah. Their tower is actually kind of short and stubby, a taller tower would neither be necessary nor probably even allowed.