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QUESTION ABOUT WGY'S SIGNAL

A

Adman4120

Guest
Hello...Can someone anser a question for me concerning WGY's signal. Several years ago before CC owned them, WGY used to come in crystal clear in the Rome/Utica, New York area both during the day and at night.

However, over the past couple of years, their signal during the day is fair, and at night, you can hardly pick up WGY at all. The station especially at night sounds like it is coming from some foreign country. It's weak, and you can hear so much other clutter and or other stations int ghe background drowning out their signal.

If they are still pumping out 50,000 watts non-directional, how can their signal be almost non exsistant in the Rome area, being only 100 miles away? We get weaker powered station here much better than WGY.

Is the problem possibly ground wave where the WGY signal is just skipping right over us? Other people have indicated to me that you can hardly get WGY clear in southeastern New York. WGY sure does not have the signal coverage they used too. I have written and e-mailed their chief engineer, but have never received any type of explanation.

If anyone can satisfy my concern, it would be appreceiated.
 
I suspect WGY might have changed their antenna patten causing a different signal availability though this is just speculation on my part.


Adman4120 said:
Hello...Can someone anser a question for me concerning WGY's signal. Several years ago before CC owned them, WGY used to come in crystal clear in the Rome/Utica, New York area both during the day and at night.

However, over the past couple of years, their signal during the day is fair, and at night, you can hardly pick up WGY at all. The station especially at night sounds like it is coming from some foreign country. It's weak, and you can hear so much other clutter and or other stations int ghe background drowning out their signal.

If they are still pumping out 50,000 watts non-directional, how can their signal be almost non exsistant in the Rome area, being only 100 miles away? We get weaker powered station here much better than WGY.

Is the problem possibly ground wave where the WGY signal is just skipping right over us? Other people have indicated to me that you can hardly get WGY clear in southeastern New York. WGY sure does not have the signal coverage they used too. I have written and e-mailed their chief engineer, but have never received any type of explanation.

If anyone can satisfy my concern, it would be appreceiated.
Click to expand...
 
As per the FCC Database, it's still 50k Day & night, Non-D. Are you still listening on the same radio you were years ago?
 
Hello...Thank-you for the replies so far. In response to another post...I am listening to WGY on some of the best audio equipment. I am still in the media business and have been for 30-yeaers and am still one of those audio nuts, even though I am not an engineer by any stretch of the imagination.

All I can offer for discussion, is that WGY does indeed have a major signal problem, especially at night compared to years before. Even when we go to my in-laws in Rochester, on the thruway, almost no WGY at night. 50,000 watts on that 810, non-directional at night should boom in. And here I can even pick up CC WHAM out of Rochester back to the Rome/Utica area better and there 50,000 watt signal is directional and does not even lobe out to Rome/Utica. I can also get a few non-directional 5,000 watt stations further than WGY.

I am not trying to to stir anything up, but I love to listen to WGY when in my car which has a $3000 audio system with sensational AM sensitivity and selectivity, and I am just perplexed at why their signal, especially at night, is almost not existant.

I suppose I can try to call their engineering department again. Even one of the top engineers in this area agrees that there signal has major problems.

Thanks again for everyone's help
 
I always wonder about the ground system on WGY as the signal where I live has declined in quality through the years during the day. At night, occasionally I'll get a lot of interference from a french language station in Quebec.
 
I agree that [something] is amiss with WGY’s nighttime signal. I can attest to this ONLY as a “skywave” listener who occasionally passes 810 at night from Charleston, SC and my parents’ home in central Indiana. At the SC location (I have lived at for just a few years), WGY’s signal has always been less-than-stellar [so has WHAM’s]. Indiana is another matter... WGY DID have an excellent nighttime signal there from the late 60s thru the late 90s—albeit somewhat seasonal-dependant. It no longer does... In fact, most evenings, it is unreliable at best—more times, un-listenable. My observations ARE NOT tempered by use of a “typical” AM radio—I own several above-average models including the original (first generation) GE “SuperRadio”; the C. Crane and its active twin-coil ferrite external antenna; and an I-Com R-71A with an active/tunable McKay-Dymek outdoor loop.

In fairness, MOST “clear-channel” AMs [note my use of the lower-case “c”] have suffered over recent years due to the relaxation of both domestic and foreign co-channel protection. Also, many AM signals have suffered from aging ground and antenna systems; and a decline in “near-field” conductivity due to commercial and residential “build-up” near their once-removed TX sites. WGY appears to be one of the more-pronounced examples... 1080 KRLD Dallas is another that comes to mind. That once-robust signal has disappeared from much of the eastern Midwest. In Indiana, I recently heard (with intriguing regularity) co-channel KCMO—Kansas City which I know to have a highly-directional pattern AWAY from the east (and WGY) [???]
 
Thanks again for all of the comments, insight, and possibilities of why WGY's signal in Central New York State is no better than a low powered local channel. The post that said WGY was loud and clear might indicate another post that skywave is a factor from Rome to Rochester. I do not understand skywave to it's full capacity, but it is intresting how someone at night in Richmond hears it loud and clear, and we cannot hear hardly anything 100 miles due west.

I understand ground systems and other variables could be factors, but I pick up loud and clear almost every night WBZ in Boston on 1030, WTIC in Hartford, WCBS, WFAN, KDKA, KYW and many other stations that are also 50,000 watts and hundreds of miles further away than WGY, so that is why I have been so puzzled.

I just want to thank everyone for trying to explain to me what they think WGY's problem is. I look forward to any other comments that might be posted.
 
I have also noticed a serious decline in WGY's nighttime signal. I remember about two winters ago, while driving from Albany to Poughkeepsie down 87, I was listening to Phil Hendrie, around 10:30 or so. The signal started to drop out around the town of Hudson; no joke. My AM antenna is in good shape, so it's not the fault of my equipment. I live in Highland and check out WGY from time to time; its still that wavy, mish-mash of different signals, with WGY only faintly being heard. Coming from a 50kW signal, its ridiculous. It should be crystal clear; If I can get WHAS out of LOUISVILLE, KY, I should be able to get a signal that is less than 80 miles away.

I would attribute the loss of daytime coverage to their HD signal, which adds a layer of digital "hash" to their analog signal. However, I can still get WGY better during the day than at night. ::)
 
Its probably because they had to cut thier audio down to 3k to allow more room for that IBOC garbage.. (I think its 3k)
 
Hello Highland Radio and the Dude....Thank you for your insight. Highland...You explained what I am hearing on WGY perfectly. their signal sounds like mish mash, wavey, etc. I could not think of the words. As you indicated, I also pick up WGY in the Utica/Rome area better during the day, than at night, but it still is not that great. Plenty of drop outs. Heck...570-WSYR out of Syracuse almost gets to Albany which is about 150 miles or so and they only have 5,000 watts. I know the Dude said they reduced their audio 3kw, but I am not sure I fully understand, however, I am pleased to know that others have experienced the same signal problem that I hear, because I know it's not my radio and I know that I'm not crazy, at least not yet.

I would love to have the WGY engineers drive through Rome, Syracuse, etc at night to hear what we hear, which is almost nothing and a lot of noise. Maybe they would try and correct the problem if it is correctable.

Thanks to everyone again.
 
I also have noticed a degradation in WGY signal not only at home in Hyde Park, but further north near Catskill. The explanations offered here sound quite plausible, but it brings up a question I have had for some time. Perhaps someone from the SCHENECTADY area can answer. I remember for many years the big stick right along the New York State Throughway (I-90) , I think around exits 24-25 or so , having a sign in it for WRGB -TV CH 6 .Several years ago I noticed the sign had been changed to their former sister station 810 WGY .Did they possibly move the tower? I have not been up their in about 5 years, but it seemed strange that they would change the sing from WRGB -TV to WGY when they are no longer connected.
 
While I suspect that this isn't the only problem, one thing has changed. Through the 1970s, 810 was a genuine clear channel frequency. There three full time stations on in the US, after sunset on 810. They were WGY, KGO-San Francisco, and KCMO-Kansas City. WGY was and is non-directional at night. KGO is always directional with most of its signal going North and West, out to sea. KCMO (now WHB) is 50000 watts non-directional by day, AND 5000 watts very directional at night to protect WGY and KGO. However, in the 1980s,
10000 watt CJVA, Caraquet, New Brunswick signed on. They are non-directional by day, and supposedly directional at night, to protect WGY. They are the station that is constantly stomping all over WGY in this region. I've always been surprised that a station that is probably only about 700 miles away, at best, line of sight, was allowed to occupy the 810 frequency, and that all of the interference that they generate in this region has been tolerated by the various owners of WGY.
 
I think CC cut all their AMs audio bandwidth down to 5K which should really help the signal. I have noticed this problem with several stations that used to be much better. I agree most of it is due to aging ground systems and interfearence from other stations. KDKA's signal took a major downturn when they replaced the tower (at the same site) several years ago.
 
Cutting audio bandwidth down to 5khz does nothing to effect the signal directly, but only how well you hear it. The ability for an AM radio station to be heard clearly at distance is solely dependant on how well it's audio is processed and fed to the transmitter. The louder & denser the audio, the more listenable it is at the fringes of the station's signal. WGY runs in HD during the day, which is the reason their audio bandwidth is limited to 5khz. However, it sounds 'mushy' because the analog audio component isn't processed all that well. Couple that with the fact that WGY replaced their transmitter back about 6 years ago with a solid-state unit, and it's becomes apparent that while their signal is still OK overall, it's certainly not what it was in the 1970's.

WDCD, WOR, WTIC, WBZ, WABC, WCBS, WFAN all now suffer from low, mushy audio in the fringes, thanks mostly to hybrid HD radio operation. WBZ sounds better than the others because of the way they process the audio, but all of these stations are now using 5khz audio bandwidth. To clarify, WGY uses 5khz audio bandwidth, not 3 as The Dude incorrectly stated. The 'swishing' heard on HD stations is an artifact of digital operation, whereas the radio is a wide enough receiver to hear both the analog and digital components of the signal at the same time.

AM Analog signal diagram, simplifed

|------Analog LSB-------|-Carrier-|------Analog USB--------|


Here's a rough diagram of HD AM radio signal

|----HD----|-Analog LSB-|-Carrier-|-Analog USB-|----HD----|


In normal Analog only operation, the Lower and Upper Sidebands (which carry the actual audio you hear) can occupy the entire space as seen above, but in HD hybrid operation you must restrict the analog components in order to make room for the digtal components (and for the two to supposedly not interfere with each other). The level of 'swishing' heard on a normal, plain-jane AM radio is directly related to how wide a chunk of spectrum the radio receives (receiver bandwidth). The wider the radio's bandwidth, the better an analog AM station sounds. But with HD, a wider bandwidth radio is actually a detriment, as it hears both the analog signal, and the digital portions (which is heard as 'hash', or white noise) at the same time.

Unfortunately, HD hybrid operation (for the stations running it) has generated numerous complaints, particularly from those who are trying to listen at the fringe of the signal, or from those trying to listen to a station on an adjacent channel. What will be interesting to see is how well hybrid operation works at works at night, which has recently been authorized by the FCC.
 
Hello Time Traveler and AMonFM...Your explanations of WGY's terrible signal problems has been very informative to me. I will agree 100% with Time Traveler that much of WGY's nightime signal problem is tha Canadian station also on 810. Sometimes that station overides WGY which should not be happening. Hard to believe they are directional with their night pattern.

All I can say for whatever reason, WGY's night signal of 50,000 watts is more like 5,000 or 10,000 watts. And if all of these other big 50,000 watt station are using basically the same technology, why can I pick them up loud and clear on most nights, and not WGY which is only 100 miles down the New York State Thruway from where we live?

Thanks again for all of your help.
 
A lot of good info has come out in all these posts. I'm located in Oneida NY, about halfway between Utica and Syracuse along the Thruway. WGY's signal here during the day is as strong as ever, although I rarely listen. Miss the days (80's) when 81WGY was an MOR station. At night, I agree that the Canadian station is interfering. Canadian stations often "forget" to change patterns at night. And don't forget about other stations with low power at night on 810. They all bring up the noise level. The marginal reception at night in the range of 80-120 miles from the tower might be attributed to: 1) groundwave signal not strong enough to overcome other stations, 2) not far enough from tower to receive substantial skywave signal and 3) the combination of groudwave and skywave signals can produce a cancellation or "fading" effect.
 
Hello Al in near Oneida. I'm in Rome. I guess I would agree with your explanation, even though I do not understand the skywave and groundwave information as you do. Even when I go to Rochester every other weekend to visit our kids, no WGY at night. How far away do you have to be before the skywave is not a problem and reception comes back.

My other question would be...Does the Canadian station have to follow some criteria or law to make sure their nighttime power is directional, if indeed it is not at the present time? It just seems like WGY is the only 50,000 watt clear channel station, out of all the 50,000 watt clear channel stations from Chicago eastward that is not coming in at night like it should. Just seems strange and hard to belive that this Canadian station, if it is true, can cause so much havic if their signal is indeed non-directional at night when it should be directional. I would still think that only being 100 miles away from WGY, that they would override the Canadian station?

Thank-you for the information.
 
I'm and avid daytime dx'er of WGY here on the south shore on Long Island and as long as WNYC has it's IBOC hisser turned of ,which it has of late because of a fire at the WMCA/WNYC xmitter site ,I get a decent daytime signal of WGY. Im using a SuperradioII,any other radio i can't hear it.
 
I certainly don't have all the answers but the distance from Schenectady to Rochester being +/- 200 miles, it would seem the skywave from WGY would be strong there at night. But sometimes the ionosphere plays tricks with propogation. And Canadian stations do have technical rules/regs so as to protect US stations on the same frequency.

"Cspence" mentions using a GE SuperRadio II. I have an SR III that does OK, but I'm told the SR II is a
better performer.
 
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