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Question about WNYT
- Thread starter dustintv
- Start date
M
moedog1
Guest
> I was wondering how they are on Channel 13 if the are
> close(Okay, so less than 200 miles) to NYC's WNET. Sorry if
> it sounds dumb, but I'm just curious since of the location.
>
WNYT (formerly WAST), channel 13 was "dropped in" to the Albany market back when the FCC was hot, it seemed, to abolish UHF TV stations. Supposedly, the FCC was trying to level the playing field for ABC, which at the time was a poor number 3 in ratings, and in some important markets on UHF. That included ALbany--I think WAST was on channel 35. In the case of Upstate NY, they changed WKTV in Utica from 13 to 2. THis allowed a channel 13 in Rochester (which also became an ABC affil), and also made 13 possible in Albany. The problem was that Albany is only about 150 miles from NYC, and FCC regs required at least a 175 mile separation between high band VHFs in the Northeast. The problem was solved by making WAST directional (nulled) towards the south. THis caused WAST/WNYT to continue to strugle for ratings, since reception was not good in the Hudson Valley, and I'm sure did not help WNET either. That situation continues today, with WNYT being directional. In the same era, the FCC tinkered with other channel assignments, hoping to improve ABC's status. One example was WVEC in Norfolk VA. CHannel 13 was dropped in there (though not technically short-spaced to WJZ, Baltimore) and WVEC moved from channel 15 to channel 13.
> close(Okay, so less than 200 miles) to NYC's WNET. Sorry if
> it sounds dumb, but I'm just curious since of the location.
>
WNYT (formerly WAST), channel 13 was "dropped in" to the Albany market back when the FCC was hot, it seemed, to abolish UHF TV stations. Supposedly, the FCC was trying to level the playing field for ABC, which at the time was a poor number 3 in ratings, and in some important markets on UHF. That included ALbany--I think WAST was on channel 35. In the case of Upstate NY, they changed WKTV in Utica from 13 to 2. THis allowed a channel 13 in Rochester (which also became an ABC affil), and also made 13 possible in Albany. The problem was that Albany is only about 150 miles from NYC, and FCC regs required at least a 175 mile separation between high band VHFs in the Northeast. The problem was solved by making WAST directional (nulled) towards the south. THis caused WAST/WNYT to continue to strugle for ratings, since reception was not good in the Hudson Valley, and I'm sure did not help WNET either. That situation continues today, with WNYT being directional. In the same era, the FCC tinkered with other channel assignments, hoping to improve ABC's status. One example was WVEC in Norfolk VA. CHannel 13 was dropped in there (though not technically short-spaced to WJZ, Baltimore) and WVEC moved from channel 15 to channel 13.
> Supposedly, the FCC was trying to
> level the playing field for ABC, which at the time was a
> poor number 3 in ratings, and in some important markets on
> UHF. That included ALbany--I think WAST was on channel 35.
Interesting story, but "WNYT (formerly WAST)" is an NBC affiliate. Either there's something wrong with your story, or you left something out. If WNYT was originally an ABC station, a mention would be helpful to those of us who may be interested, but don't know Albany TV history like the backs of our hands.
The way your post reads right now, I'm not sure how adding channel 13 to the market was a benefit to WTEN, the current ABC affiliate. I'm also not sure how or why the FCC gives (or ever gave) a d@mn about network ratings... have you any documented evidence of this or is it just a "theory" of yours?
I wouldn't be surprised if they did try to abolish UHF at one time though... it seems like most "real" network affiliates are usually on VHF slots, while most of the UHF stations out there are the crappier ones in every market.
> level the playing field for ABC, which at the time was a
> poor number 3 in ratings, and in some important markets on
> UHF. That included ALbany--I think WAST was on channel 35.
Interesting story, but "WNYT (formerly WAST)" is an NBC affiliate. Either there's something wrong with your story, or you left something out. If WNYT was originally an ABC station, a mention would be helpful to those of us who may be interested, but don't know Albany TV history like the backs of our hands.
The way your post reads right now, I'm not sure how adding channel 13 to the market was a benefit to WTEN, the current ABC affiliate. I'm also not sure how or why the FCC gives (or ever gave) a d@mn about network ratings... have you any documented evidence of this or is it just a "theory" of yours?
I wouldn't be surprised if they did try to abolish UHF at one time though... it seems like most "real" network affiliates are usually on VHF slots, while most of the UHF stations out there are the crappier ones in every market.
M
moedog1
Guest
>
> Interesting story, but "WNYT (formerly WAST)" is an NBC
> affiliate. Either there's something wrong with your story,
> or you left something out. If WNYT was originally an ABC
> station, a mention would be helpful to those of us who may
> be interested, but don't know Albany TV history like the
> backs of our hands.
Dang, Bob--excuse me for breathing. I'm sorry I upset you so much. Yes, channel 13 was originally an ABC affil. If I remember correctly, it then changed to CBS when WTEN stole the ABC affil during ABC's heyday in the early 80s. A few years later, channel 13 flipped again, as it became NBC and channel 6 got CBS( and about the same time changed their calls to WNYT). If seems, though that WNYT got the last laugh, as this was about the time NBC's ratings shyrocketed--and became the #1 network for many years.
> The way your post reads right now, I'm not sure how adding
> channel 13 to the market was a benefit to WTEN, the current
> ABC affiliate. I'm also not sure how or why the FCC gives
> (or ever gave) a d@mn about network ratings... have you any
> documented evidence of this or is it just a "theory" of
> yours?
Supposedly, the FCC was interested in fostering competition among broadcast stations (very different from today). Encouraging more strong national networks would seem to also enhance more competitive local stations. Prior to the mid 60s, their was some concern that ABC would dry up and go out of business.
> I wouldn't be surprised if they did try to abolish UHF at
> one time though... it seems like most "real" network
> affiliates are usually on VHF slots, while most of the UHF
> stations out there are the crappier ones in every market.
>
Of course, the FCC never had a written policy which encouraged the abolishment of UHF. But their actions seemed to point in that direction---the Albany reallocation being one of many examples. They also refused to require UHF tuner parity, changed a number of all UHF markets to intermixed (in other words, added VHF channels to the UHFs already in existance), refused to require that UHF tuners be mandatory in all TV sets (until 1964--and that took an act of congress), etc. The theory at the time (not my theory!) was that all of this was driven by politics. The established VHF broadcasters did not want the added competition of UHF--and they had the money to back their wishes up. After all, even more so than today, their license to broadcast was a license to print money---many major markets had only two stations, medium markets often only had one. By the way---"real" network affiliates are not necessarily on VHF. A few examples---WVIT/NBC/30 in Hartford, WCNC/NBC/36 in Charlotte, KCST/NBC/39 in San Diego are a few that come to mind that are located in major markets and are quite competitive. Now, Bob, I hope you feel better and will be nice the rest of the day.
> Interesting story, but "WNYT (formerly WAST)" is an NBC
> affiliate. Either there's something wrong with your story,
> or you left something out. If WNYT was originally an ABC
> station, a mention would be helpful to those of us who may
> be interested, but don't know Albany TV history like the
> backs of our hands.
Dang, Bob--excuse me for breathing. I'm sorry I upset you so much. Yes, channel 13 was originally an ABC affil. If I remember correctly, it then changed to CBS when WTEN stole the ABC affil during ABC's heyday in the early 80s. A few years later, channel 13 flipped again, as it became NBC and channel 6 got CBS( and about the same time changed their calls to WNYT). If seems, though that WNYT got the last laugh, as this was about the time NBC's ratings shyrocketed--and became the #1 network for many years.
> The way your post reads right now, I'm not sure how adding
> channel 13 to the market was a benefit to WTEN, the current
> ABC affiliate. I'm also not sure how or why the FCC gives
> (or ever gave) a d@mn about network ratings... have you any
> documented evidence of this or is it just a "theory" of
> yours?
Supposedly, the FCC was interested in fostering competition among broadcast stations (very different from today). Encouraging more strong national networks would seem to also enhance more competitive local stations. Prior to the mid 60s, their was some concern that ABC would dry up and go out of business.
> I wouldn't be surprised if they did try to abolish UHF at
> one time though... it seems like most "real" network
> affiliates are usually on VHF slots, while most of the UHF
> stations out there are the crappier ones in every market.
>
Of course, the FCC never had a written policy which encouraged the abolishment of UHF. But their actions seemed to point in that direction---the Albany reallocation being one of many examples. They also refused to require UHF tuner parity, changed a number of all UHF markets to intermixed (in other words, added VHF channels to the UHFs already in existance), refused to require that UHF tuners be mandatory in all TV sets (until 1964--and that took an act of congress), etc. The theory at the time (not my theory!) was that all of this was driven by politics. The established VHF broadcasters did not want the added competition of UHF--and they had the money to back their wishes up. After all, even more so than today, their license to broadcast was a license to print money---many major markets had only two stations, medium markets often only had one. By the way---"real" network affiliates are not necessarily on VHF. A few examples---WVIT/NBC/30 in Hartford, WCNC/NBC/36 in Charlotte, KCST/NBC/39 in San Diego are a few that come to mind that are located in major markets and are quite competitive. Now, Bob, I hope you feel better and will be nice the rest of the day.
T
TXengineer
Guest
> Interesting story, but "WNYT (formerly WAST)" is an NBC
> affiliate. Either there's something wrong with your story,
> or you left something out. If WNYT was originally an ABC
> station, a mention would be helpful to those of us who may
> be interested, but don't know Albany TV history like the
> backs of our hands.
Calm down Bob. You can ask him to clairfy without being an ass towards him.
Back on track here, WNYT as mentioned was infact an ABC affiliate at the time of the move from 35 to 13.
>
> The way your post reads right now, I'm not sure how adding
> channel 13 to the market was a benefit to WTEN, the current
> ABC affiliate. I'm also not sure how or why the FCC gives
> (or ever gave) a d@mn about network ratings... have you any
> documented evidence of this or is it just a "theory" of
> yours?
Why are you so angry? Geesh.
> I wouldn't be surprised if they did try to abolish UHF at
> one time though... it seems like most "real" network
> affiliates are usually on VHF slots, while most of the UHF
> stations out there are the crappier ones in every market.
The FCC never attempted to abolish the UHF band. It tried to encourage stations to go VHF off of their UHF if the assignments where availble, to allow more stations on the air.
Don't forget that WTEN, then WCDA, started out on 41(?) before moving to VHF 10.
From the way I read it, the FCC changed WKTV's allocation to VHF 2, to allow VHF 13 in Rochester. As a aside , WNYT's 13 became availble with two restrictions. One, the antenna be directional towards the south, Two, a 'site restriction' which caused them to be located where their current transmitter site is located instead of the Heldebergs with the other stations in the market.
> affiliate. Either there's something wrong with your story,
> or you left something out. If WNYT was originally an ABC
> station, a mention would be helpful to those of us who may
> be interested, but don't know Albany TV history like the
> backs of our hands.
Calm down Bob. You can ask him to clairfy without being an ass towards him.
Back on track here, WNYT as mentioned was infact an ABC affiliate at the time of the move from 35 to 13.
>
> The way your post reads right now, I'm not sure how adding
> channel 13 to the market was a benefit to WTEN, the current
> ABC affiliate. I'm also not sure how or why the FCC gives
> (or ever gave) a d@mn about network ratings... have you any
> documented evidence of this or is it just a "theory" of
> yours?
Why are you so angry? Geesh.
> I wouldn't be surprised if they did try to abolish UHF at
> one time though... it seems like most "real" network
> affiliates are usually on VHF slots, while most of the UHF
> stations out there are the crappier ones in every market.
The FCC never attempted to abolish the UHF band. It tried to encourage stations to go VHF off of their UHF if the assignments where availble, to allow more stations on the air.
Don't forget that WTEN, then WCDA, started out on 41(?) before moving to VHF 10.
From the way I read it, the FCC changed WKTV's allocation to VHF 2, to allow VHF 13 in Rochester. As a aside , WNYT's 13 became availble with two restrictions. One, the antenna be directional towards the south, Two, a 'site restriction' which caused them to be located where their current transmitter site is located instead of the Heldebergs with the other stations in the market.
M
Mark_Ericson
Guest
> WNYT (formerly WAST), channel 13 was "dropped in" to the
> Albany market back when the FCC was hot, it seemed, to
> abolish UHF TV stations. Supposedly, the FCC was trying to
> level the playing field for ABC, which at the time was a
> poor number 3 in ratings, and in some important markets on
> UHF. That included ALbany--I think WAST was on channel 35.
> In the case of Upstate NY, they changed WKTV in Utica from
> 13 to 2. THis allowed a channel 13 in Rochester (which also
> became an ABC affil), and also made 13 possible in Albany.
> The problem was that Albany is only about 150 miles from
> NYC, and FCC regs required at least a 175 mile separation
> between high band VHFs in the Northeast. The problem was
> solved by making WAST directional (nulled) towards the
> south. THis caused WAST/WNYT to continue to strugle for
> ratings, since reception was not good in the Hudson Valley,
> and I'm sure did not help WNET either. That situation
Don't quote me on any of this, but this is what I recall reading.
Before the FCC got involved, the lineup looked like this:
6 WRGB
19 WCDC (rebroadcasting WCDA)
29 WCDB (rebroadcasting WCDA)
35 WAST
41 WCDA
Now, at the time, the FCC was looking at trying to foster competition, and since they wouldn't require TVs to have UHF tuners and the UHF tuners of the time were poor in quality, it was obvious that in Albany, WRGB would get all the viewers. In order to level the playing field, the FCC moved WKTV from 13 to 2, allowing for 13 in Rochester and Albany (although it was shortspaced to WNET in New York). WAST moved from 35 to 13. They also merged WCDA and WCDB into one station on channel 10, which is short-spaced to WJAR.
> continues today, with WNYT being directional. In the same
> era, the FCC tinkered with other channel assignments, hoping
> to improve ABC's status. One example was WVEC in Norfolk
> VA. CHannel 13 was dropped in there (though not technically
> short-spaced to WJZ, Baltimore) and WVEC moved from channel
> 15 to channel 13.
But no stations were short-spaced in that move. WNBE-13 in New Bern was moved to channel 12 (which does conflict with WWBT in Richmond to this day, though it's not technically short-spaced) to make way for WVEC-13 in Norfolk as well as allowing WBTW-8 to move to channel 13 down in Florence. WBTW moving from 8 opened the door for WGHP in Greensboro and WFXI in Morehead City.
- Trip
<P ID="signature">______________
Visit my website, www.rabbitears.info! It's eventually going to be your one resource for television info! Digital television, histories, and technical information for the entire USA from one source!</P>
> Albany market back when the FCC was hot, it seemed, to
> abolish UHF TV stations. Supposedly, the FCC was trying to
> level the playing field for ABC, which at the time was a
> poor number 3 in ratings, and in some important markets on
> UHF. That included ALbany--I think WAST was on channel 35.
> In the case of Upstate NY, they changed WKTV in Utica from
> 13 to 2. THis allowed a channel 13 in Rochester (which also
> became an ABC affil), and also made 13 possible in Albany.
> The problem was that Albany is only about 150 miles from
> NYC, and FCC regs required at least a 175 mile separation
> between high band VHFs in the Northeast. The problem was
> solved by making WAST directional (nulled) towards the
> south. THis caused WAST/WNYT to continue to strugle for
> ratings, since reception was not good in the Hudson Valley,
> and I'm sure did not help WNET either. That situation
Don't quote me on any of this, but this is what I recall reading.
Before the FCC got involved, the lineup looked like this:
6 WRGB
19 WCDC (rebroadcasting WCDA)
29 WCDB (rebroadcasting WCDA)
35 WAST
41 WCDA
Now, at the time, the FCC was looking at trying to foster competition, and since they wouldn't require TVs to have UHF tuners and the UHF tuners of the time were poor in quality, it was obvious that in Albany, WRGB would get all the viewers. In order to level the playing field, the FCC moved WKTV from 13 to 2, allowing for 13 in Rochester and Albany (although it was shortspaced to WNET in New York). WAST moved from 35 to 13. They also merged WCDA and WCDB into one station on channel 10, which is short-spaced to WJAR.
> continues today, with WNYT being directional. In the same
> era, the FCC tinkered with other channel assignments, hoping
> to improve ABC's status. One example was WVEC in Norfolk
> VA. CHannel 13 was dropped in there (though not technically
> short-spaced to WJZ, Baltimore) and WVEC moved from channel
> 15 to channel 13.
But no stations were short-spaced in that move. WNBE-13 in New Bern was moved to channel 12 (which does conflict with WWBT in Richmond to this day, though it's not technically short-spaced) to make way for WVEC-13 in Norfolk as well as allowing WBTW-8 to move to channel 13 down in Florence. WBTW moving from 8 opened the door for WGHP in Greensboro and WFXI in Morehead City.
- Trip
<P ID="signature">______________
Visit my website, www.rabbitears.info! It's eventually going to be your one resource for television info! Digital television, histories, and technical information for the entire USA from one source!</P>
K
KML0224
Guest
> By the way---"real" network affiliates are
> not necessarily on VHF. A few examples---WVIT/NBC/30 in
> Hartford, WCNC/NBC/36 in Charlotte, KCST/NBC/39 in San Diego
> are a few that come to mind that are located in major
> markets and are quite competitive. Now, Bob, I hope you
> feel better and will be nice the rest of the day.
>
WVIT-TV/DT (NBC) channel 30/D 35 of New Britain/Hartford is usually #1 at 11 PM here. They transmit from Rattlesnake Mountain in Farmington with over 3 million watts visual ERP.
> not necessarily on VHF. A few examples---WVIT/NBC/30 in
> Hartford, WCNC/NBC/36 in Charlotte, KCST/NBC/39 in San Diego
> are a few that come to mind that are located in major
> markets and are quite competitive. Now, Bob, I hope you
> feel better and will be nice the rest of the day.
>
WVIT-TV/DT (NBC) channel 30/D 35 of New Britain/Hartford is usually #1 at 11 PM here. They transmit from Rattlesnake Mountain in Farmington with over 3 million watts visual ERP.
T
TXengineer
Guest
> viewers. In order to level the playing field, the FCC moved
> WKTV from 13 to 2, allowing for 13 in Rochester and Albany
And IIRC, WKTV analog operates at lower than normal power due to short spacing towards Canada.
(However at 34kW, their signal still very much visible almost into Albany)
> WKTV from 13 to 2, allowing for 13 in Rochester and Albany
And IIRC, WKTV analog operates at lower than normal power due to short spacing towards Canada.
(However at 34kW, their signal still very much visible almost into Albany)
> Don't quote me on any of this, but this is what I recall
> reading.
You've got a lot of the details right, Trip. Here are a few more.
When it was on 35, the station later known as WAST/WNYT operated under the WTRI calls. It was a sister station to WTRY 980, which was licensed to Troy. 35 was licensed to Albany, and you couldn't then share calls between stations not licensed to the same community, hence WTRI for the TV station.
It was by no means clear, as the 1950s drew to a close, how TV allocations would play out in a three-network world. There was a strong push for something called "deintermixture" - taking markets such as Albany, Fresno and Bakersfield that had one VHF allocation and making them all-UHF. At one point, WRGB was actually assigned channel 47, and it might well have been forced to make the move, just as KMJ-TV Fresno (12 to 24) and KERO-TV Bakersfield (10 to 23) were forcibly shifted to UHF. (There were even some serious calls to abandon VHF entirely and move all TV to UHF, just as much of Europe would do a couple of decades later.)
GE, however, had tremendous political pull (remember, this was the era in which Ike coined the phrase "military-industrial complex"), and so the FCC was persuaded to tweak the rules a bit to squeeze two more Vs into the Albany market and to allow WRGB to stay on 6.
The 10 allotment had actually been in Vails Mills, near Amsterdam about 40 miles west of Albany, and WCDB Hagaman (which had been on 29) moved to 10 around 1958 as a west-side Albany rimshotter. WCDA remained on the air in Albany on 41 as a simulcast, along with WCDC Adams MA on 19.
In addition to allowing 35 to move to 13 at Bald Mountain, 10 was allowed to move from Vails Mills to Albany (with transmitter in the Helderbergs) and a certain amount of short-spacing to WJAR was tolerated. Once 10 was in the Helderbergs, 41 was shut down in Albany.
There had been one more CP in the market: WPTR-TV 23. It was never built, and the channel would much later be revived as indie WXXA, once the whole idea of deintermixture was dead and nearly every market had both Vs and Us.
(Ironically, I'm writing this in Fort Wayne, Indiana, one of the handful of markets where the FCC successfully experimented with an all-UHF dial, still the case to this day.) <P ID="signature">______________
Tower Site Calendar 2006 JUST RELEASED! - <a target="_blank" href=http://www.fybush.com/nerw.html#calendar>www.fybush.com</a></P>
> reading.
You've got a lot of the details right, Trip. Here are a few more.
When it was on 35, the station later known as WAST/WNYT operated under the WTRI calls. It was a sister station to WTRY 980, which was licensed to Troy. 35 was licensed to Albany, and you couldn't then share calls between stations not licensed to the same community, hence WTRI for the TV station.
It was by no means clear, as the 1950s drew to a close, how TV allocations would play out in a three-network world. There was a strong push for something called "deintermixture" - taking markets such as Albany, Fresno and Bakersfield that had one VHF allocation and making them all-UHF. At one point, WRGB was actually assigned channel 47, and it might well have been forced to make the move, just as KMJ-TV Fresno (12 to 24) and KERO-TV Bakersfield (10 to 23) were forcibly shifted to UHF. (There were even some serious calls to abandon VHF entirely and move all TV to UHF, just as much of Europe would do a couple of decades later.)
GE, however, had tremendous political pull (remember, this was the era in which Ike coined the phrase "military-industrial complex"), and so the FCC was persuaded to tweak the rules a bit to squeeze two more Vs into the Albany market and to allow WRGB to stay on 6.
The 10 allotment had actually been in Vails Mills, near Amsterdam about 40 miles west of Albany, and WCDB Hagaman (which had been on 29) moved to 10 around 1958 as a west-side Albany rimshotter. WCDA remained on the air in Albany on 41 as a simulcast, along with WCDC Adams MA on 19.
In addition to allowing 35 to move to 13 at Bald Mountain, 10 was allowed to move from Vails Mills to Albany (with transmitter in the Helderbergs) and a certain amount of short-spacing to WJAR was tolerated. Once 10 was in the Helderbergs, 41 was shut down in Albany.
There had been one more CP in the market: WPTR-TV 23. It was never built, and the channel would much later be revived as indie WXXA, once the whole idea of deintermixture was dead and nearly every market had both Vs and Us.
(Ironically, I'm writing this in Fort Wayne, Indiana, one of the handful of markets where the FCC successfully experimented with an all-UHF dial, still the case to this day.) <P ID="signature">______________
Tower Site Calendar 2006 JUST RELEASED! - <a target="_blank" href=http://www.fybush.com/nerw.html#calendar>www.fybush.com</a></P>
- Status