Question: Dual Cities of License

[C Murder]

So this is a topic I've been curious about...

How does a station end up with dual cities of license? (i.e., KDGE's Fort Worth-Dallas and KVIL's Highland Park-Dallas)

One theory that I have is that the station is the result of a merged time-share where each station had a different city of license, for example: KVRX (Austin) and KOOP (Hornsby), which share 91.7. Am I correct in this assumption?

I'm not sure on which board it belongs, but since there are a couple such stations in the Metroplex, I figured this would be the board to ask. I ran a search, but admittedly, I didn't go very far into the archives, so if it's been brought up before, I apologize.

 

[Sgt. Hans G. Schultz]

So this is a topic I've been curious about...

How does a station end up with dual cities of license? (i.e., KDGE's Fort Worth-Dallas and KVIL's Highland Park-Dallas)

One theory that I have is that the station is the result of a merged time-share where each station had a different city of license, for example: KVRX (Austin) and KOOP (Hornsby), which share 91.7. Am I correct in this assumption?

I'm not sure on which board it belongs, but since there are a couple such stations in the Metroplex, I figured this would be the board to ask. I ran a search, but admittedly, I didn't go very far into the archives, so if it's been brought up before, I apologize.

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After you ID the calls with the COL:
"KXXX, Podunk" or
"KXXX-FM, Podunk"
you can add just about whatever you want.
KTLR-FM in Terrell (RIP) used to ID:
"KTLR-FM, Terrell, Rockwall, Garland, Mesquite.
The official station of 1988!"

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[LibertyNT]

on KDGE's actual License it is Fort Worth-Dallas
on KVIL's actual License it is Highland Park-Dallas

That's what C Murder was asking about.

 

[Steve Eberhart]

As I understand it, the actual legal station identification requires call letters, immediately followed by city of license.

KVIL originally was "KVIL, Highland Park" for the AM (when there was one) and "KVIL FM, Highland Park-Dallas". Later, KVIL petitioned the FCC to be able to add "Ft. Worth" to the city of license, mainly so they could say that in the ID and make people in Ft. Worth believe it was a "Ft. Worth station" as well as "Dallas station". Thus, the FM ID became the famous "KVIL Highland Park, Dallas, Ft. Worth".

For many years, during simulcast times, KVIL had one of the longest legal station identifications in the country which was: "KVIL Highland Park, KVIL FM Highland Park, Dallas, Fort Worth".

As long as you are putting a city grade signal over the service area, you are usually able to add the name to the city of license.

Some stations will add them without the legal approval to do so, but in the case of KVIL, I know it was on the license that way because I have seen it. Granted, that was years ago, I have no idea what it might say today.

 

[Ryan Williams]

The station I work for, KBBW in Waco, had a dual city of license for several decades before we modified it in 2009.

As I understand it, the station started off being a daytimer licensed to Marlin (KAWA). Later, the station upgraded power and added nighttime coverage to better serve the much larger city of Waco, which is about 30 miles to the northwest of Marlin. Somewhere in this timeframe Waco was added to the license and the calls changed to KKIK. The call letters then changed again to KBBW and for some 26 years the station was "KBBW Waco-Marlin". Now it is simply KBBW Waco.

So in KBBW's case, it was to upgrade to a larger adjacent market. KDGE might have added Dallas to the license to better tap the larger and richer Dallas ad market before the two markets were merged.

 

[Bob E. Nelson]

KVIL originally was "KVIL, Highland Park" for the AM (when there was one) and "KVIL FM, Highland Park-Dallas". Later, KVIL petitioned the FCC to be able to add "Ft. Worth" to the city of license, mainly so they could say that in the ID and make people in Ft. Worth believe it was a "Ft. Worth station" as well as "Dallas station".

The current FCC CDBS database entry (http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?call=KVIL) shows:

KVIL TX HIGHLAND PARK-DALLAS USA

The FM suffix is no longer present nor is Ft. Worth listed in what is now known as the community (not city) of license.

Over in the TV world, there's an interesting one (http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KJJM) in terms of punctuation with an ampersand used rather than a hyphen between the two communities.

KJJM-LD TX DALLAS & MESQUITE USA

 

[jd]

Here's one from an AM talk station on 610 up in the Northwest, with an ID that's so long it exceeds the database space:

KONA WA KENNEWICK-RICHLAND-P USA

KONA bills itself as "the Voice of the Tri-Cities;" the third city is Pasco.

 

[davideduardo]

on KDGE's actual License it is Fort Worth-Dallas
on KVIL's actual License it is Highland Park-Dallas

That's what C Murder was asking about.

Yes, you present good examples of stations where a dual city appears on the license.

Most stations that have more than one city in the top of the hour ID don't have a dual city license. As a prior post pointed out (say 10 times fast), a station can add whatever they want, as long as the "real" city/community of license is first. WBAP-Ft. Worth-Dallas is an example. The license is only for Ft Worth, but they can add Dallas (or Krum or Austin or Tulsa or Nome) if they want, as long as they say Calls (optional: licensee) Community of License together. They can say "Serving Dallas, Ft Worth and the entire Metroplex, KZZZ-FM, Corsicana" too!

Dual city IDs can come from a variety of root causes. One is simply petitioning the FCC and establishing that the COL is served (generally by another station that keeps the COL) or something else convincing. In one case, I saw a city annexed by another and the station got first a dual city ID, then an ID for the surviving city... and that was long before the FCC allowed tagging the real COL with others. (WUNO, Rio Piedras became WUNO San Juan Rio Piedras and then WUNO San Juan). Changing COL involves demonstrating the requirements for signal coverage of the new COL be met, too.

 

[Bob E. Nelson]

In one case, I saw a city annexed by another and the station got first a dual city ID, then an ID for the surviving city... and that was long before the FCC allowed tagging the real COL with others. (WUNO, Rio Piedras became WUNO San Juan Rio Piedras and then WUNO San Juan). Changing COL involves demonstrating the requirements for signal coverage of the new COL be met, too.

When did the FCC change from the term "city of license" to "community of license"?

I ask because of the old WENO licensed to Madison, Tennessee in the late 1950's. Several years later, Metro government was formed and Nashville absorbed all but a few cities in Davidson County. Madison ceased to exist as a governmental entity. In contrast, WVOL's COL of Berry Hill (totally surrounded by Nashville) continued as a city in its own right.

The hour ID (during the era of Cal Young ownership) was "WENO, Madison in Metro Nashville", with Madison pronounced almost as a parenthetical.

I don't know if Young could have made a case back then that WENO should have or could have borne Nashville as the COL.

 

[sidchase]

As I understand it, the actual legal station identification requires call letters, immediately followed by city of license.

KVIL originally was "KVIL, Highland Park" for the AM (when there was one) and "KVIL FM, Highland Park-Dallas". Later, KVIL petitioned the FCC to be able to add "Ft. Worth" to the city of license, mainly so they could say that in the ID and make people in Ft. Worth believe it was a "Ft. Worth station" as well as "Dallas station". Thus, the FM ID became the famous "KVIL Highland Park, Dallas, Ft. Worth".

For many years, during simulcast times, KVIL had one of the longest legal station identifications in the country which was: "KVIL Highland Park, KVIL FM Highland Park, Dallas, Fort Worth".

As long as you are putting a city grade signal over the service area, you are usually able to add the name to the city of license.

Some stations will add them without the legal approval to do so, but in the case of KVIL, I know it was on the license that way because I have seen it. Granted, that was years ago, I have no idea what it might say today.

Sould'nt it be Todays refreshing lite rock formeryly the great KVIL FM Highland Park Dallas Ft Worth

 

[davideduardo]

When did the FCC change from the term "city of license" to "community of license"?

I did a quick check through the rules from the 40's into the 90's.

Back in the 40's we saw stations referred to by their "location" and location was determined, in a somewhat circular argument, to be the city or town where the station was located. ID's specified "location" and not city or community of license.

"Community" did not enter in until some time in the 80's when the word crept in as a definition of "location" and in reference to moves in station or studio location. By the 90's, "community" was used instead of location, and reference to service became references to the community.

I've been told (and can't disproved from the condensed FCC rules in Broadcasting's Yearbooks at www.americanradiohistory.com) that "city of license" was a broadcasters' term, and not used in the rules. And, consequently, that the rules went from "location" to the concept of community in part because the proliferation of stations caused many to be licensed to, at the extremes, unincorporated places with a few people.... communities.

 

[unclepudd]

If the rule is the same it is Calls followed immediately by city of license with NOTHING between. After the city of license you can add anything your little heart and ego desires since it outside the ID and considered "programming". There can be only one city of license unless multiple transmitters are in play. The station must completely cover the city of license with at least a certain power strength (.05 millivolt or some such). The only exception I can remember was when WFAA and WBAP shared 570/820. Then, and only then, the frequency was required between the call letters and the city of license. Even though they shared the same transmitters, the city of license for BAP was Fort Worth and FAA was Dallas. There was no problem since the transmitters were located between the cities (i.e. at Grapevine and at North Lake) and 570 & 820 covered both equally with the required amount of power.... Remember the rule and you can tell which stations are licensed to which city. KPLX Fort Worth-Dallas, KTXQ Fort Worth-Dallas, KSCS Fort Worth-Dallas and others are Fort Worth stations. KRLD Dallas-Fort Worth, KAFM Dallas-Fort Worth, KLUV Dallas-Fort Worth are all Dallas stations. WRR had to use WRR-FM as long as WRR 1310 was on the air. Aften WRR changed to KAAM then the FM could drop "FM" since it was now the only WRR in the market. Whoever got the call letters FIRST could keep them the longest. When KRLD-TV and KRLD radio split in '71 TV assumed they would remain KRLD-TV until someone remembered the rule and KDFW-TV was born.

KVIL-Highland Park (followed by) KVIL-FM-Highland Park-Dallas Fort Worth were actually two I.D.s.

 

[jd]

If the rule is the same it is Calls followed immediately by city of license with NOTHING between.

That's not quite correct. Here's the applicable section of the rules, courtesy of www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2010/73/1201/

Official station identification shall consist of the station's call letters immediately followed by the community or communities specified in its license as the station's location; Provided, That the name of the licensee, the station's frequency, the station's channel number, as stated on the station's license, and/or the station's network affiliation may be inserted between the call letters and station location.

 

[davideduardo]

If the rule is the same it is Calls followed immediately by city of license with NOTHING between.

That's not quite correct. Here's the applicable section of the rules, courtesy of www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2010/73/1201/

Official station identification shall consist of the station's call letters immediately followed by the community or communities specified in its license as the station's location; Provided, That the name of the licensee, the station's frequency, the station's channel number, as stated on the station's license, and/or the station's network affiliation may be inserted between the call letters and station location.

There is some suggestion that the network is a permitted insert for TV only. Of course, a network affiliation, for radio, is not necessarily something most stations would put, today, in the ID. But if you were Red or Blue or CBS in 1938, it would be very important. Similarly, the channel thing is apparently TV in origin... unless we feel that some FM on 92.3 would want to be "WCUY, Channel 222, Cleveland Heights."

There is also a gray area on "licensee" (the one I cited) as to whether you have to do the full license name ("CBS North Shore License Holding, LLC") or whether you can say "A CBS Station" since CBS is the parent of CBSNSLH, LLC.

At some point, the simplification of the rules ended up consolidating some service-specific rules. And they say that consolidation was good for us.

 

[davideduardo]

]Whoever got the call letters FIRST could keep them the longest.[/b][/i][/glow] When KRLD-TV and KRLD radio split in '71 TV assumed they would remain KRLD-TV until someone remembered the rule and KDFW-TV was born.

No, not really. There are cases of different owners using calls shared among different services. KABC TV and KABC radio in LA are not commonly owned.

The use of calls when a combo or cluster breaks up is generally handled by the sales contract. Sometimes TV keeps the heritage calls, sometimes an AM... or an FM. And sometimes both parties keep them, in a mutual agreement.

In Albuquerque, KOB TV split from KOB (AM) and KOB-FM. The AM, which dates back to the 20's when it was established by a university, had to become KKOB as the deal ceded the calls to TV. It's a deal point, not a rule.

 

[jh]

Dual city IDs can come from a variety of root causes. One is simply petitioning the FCC and establishing that the COL is served (generally by another station that keeps the COL) or something else convincing. In one case, I saw a city annexed by another and the station got first a dual city ID, then an ID for the surviving city... and that was long before the FCC allowed tagging the real COL with others. (WUNO, Rio Piedras became WUNO San Juan Rio Piedras and then WUNO San Juan). Changing COL involves demonstrating the requirements for signal coverage of the new COL be met, too.

I remember talking with Bruce Elving about dual-city IDs back in the 70s, and I think he may discuss it in one edition or another of the FM Atlas in that era. Back then the FCC would only allow a dual city ID if the station was licensed that way... and the station had to put a city-grade signal over the 2nd city and the station was required to do the public file ascertainment for both cities.

 

[radioeye]

My understanding is that today, the legal id can be the CALL SIGN, City of License, Whatever.. example KKKK, Dallas-Waco you don't need the state and the other city mentioned really don't matter. It's common with the move-ins, but in the reverse. KKKK, Waco, Dallas with the target city after after the city of license.

I've never heard a network identifier between the calls and city of license. It might be happening, I've just never heard it done.

 

[Sgt. Hans G. Schultz]

For many years, during simulcast times, KVIL had one of the longest legal station identifications in the country which was: "KVIL Highland Park, KVIL FM Highland Park, Dallas, Fort Worth".


One of the longest I recall (you should too, Steve) was channel 12 in Sherman before KERA acquired channel 2. "KXII-TV, Sherman, Ardmore, Denison, Paris Translator - Channel 2"

 

[davideduardo]

I remember talking with Bruce Elving about dual-city IDs back in the 70s, and I think he may discuss it in one edition or another of the FM Atlas in that era. Back then the FCC would only allow a dual city ID if the station was licensed that way... and the station had to put a city-grade signal over the 2nd city and the station was required to do the public file ascertainment for both cities.

Keep in mind that the rules have changed over time. Dual ID's come from dual "location" licenses, which could come from a variety of reasons including consolidation of a city, etc.

Ascertainment was not done for the public file, but for license renewal... and the license renewal had to be put in the public file. Ascertainment and the public file came about across the time period of the late 60's and early 70's. I recall first doing ascertainment for a new station application in 1970, and the public file came a bit later.

In any case, ascertainment was not done just for the city of license, but for the community served. The application I refer to was for a new FM that EZ Communications was going to apply for in Elizabeth City, NC. Ascertainment was done in two counties of NC, as well as Norfolk, Portsmouth, Chesapeake and Virginia Beach, VA. While it would likely have raised questions were a station to not include the city of license in ascertainment, it would have been similarly odd to ignore the main communities in the primary coverage of a station. Community leader ascertainment was only in effect from around '70 up to about 1990 (I don't recall the exact year) when the method of ascertainment was given to stations (and readio was deregulated, with licensing for more than 3 years), meaning community leader interviews all but ended; those same leaders were generally royally pissed when 30 or 40 stations all called them to comply.

I was saddened to learn (Via Radio World) of Bruce Elving's passing last month. I have nearly all his FM Atlas publications and also had the opportunity to chat with him in the past.

 

[unclepudd]

Everything written here so far has been correct by everyone. My memories are from long ago while most of you guys have kept up with the changes and I salute you for your efforts and your love of radio. Keep in mind that when I took part in the WFAA/WBAP switches that was 40 years ago this year, the last being midnight April 30, 1970. I really enjoy reading your opinions and posts, keep it up!