Question for Music/Program Directors

[Sandscott]

I have always wondered this. One of the things I hear people complain about is the repetitious playlists. I will be honest. I get sick of hearing the same bands and artists all the time. There is no excuse for classic rock stations to play the same thing over and over every day. Everytime I have ever spoken to a program director, he always tells me they have done research etc. However, I have never been asked what I want to hear a day in my life, nor have I ever known anyone else has been either. Everyone I know despises what radio has become and has grown tired of the same old same old.

 

[SuperQ]

What's the question? This is a complaint.

 

[knoxbob]

What the PD means to say is," My hands are tied by the corporate B.S. and I must play what the consultant puts into our preprogrammed playlist".

 

[Sandscott]

Well smartass, basically I wonder just who gets surveyed on what they want to hear. I have never met anyone who has been polled and hear complaints all the time about how they don't regularly listen to radio anymore because of the repetition. What is the purpose of a program or music director since apparently they either have no control or lack enough creativitity to actually expand a playlist where people actually get to hear some songs they want to hear.

 

[SuperQ]

Well, that's a question so I will try and answer it. Stations of substance (revenue) regularly conduct music research to find songs that pass the least common denominator test. You may like three Heart songs but generally don't care for their other stuff but you want to hear everything AC DC ever did. Your next door neighbor may like every Heart song, but only like "highway to Hell." from AC/DC Multiply those disparities by however many thousand people are in your market area.

The holy grail of research is to find the three Heart songs, eight AC DC songs, six Seger songs, etc.... that the maximum number of people are comfortable with. Because for every "oh wow" a song generates for you, it generates some "oh craps" for someone else.

Thus the playlists are tight to try and focus on songs that the maximum number of people are comfortable with. the goal is not to educate the public but adapt to their pre-existing tastes.

Tens of thousands of people sit in on auditorium tests, telephone tests, and now online researchers. Stations tend to pick research subjects that they most think can be P-1"s for their station. If they hear that someone hates radio repetition, thinks nobody listens to radio any more, and generally acts negative about the whole radio experience, you don't get invited. You might have a chance at a focus group, but those are much smaller panels.

It was a lot easier to program in the good old days, because there was usually never more than one or two other stations to punch to. Now with twice as many radio stations, satellite, internet and Ipods, you can't afford to play "oh crap" songs. But I have been continuously employed in radio for almost 40 years, and I heard just as many complaints about repitition, tight playlists and crappy music in 1970 as I hear today. It's just today those complaints get spread around a lot more due to technology.

All that having been said, I think radio research is horribly flawed, and the advent of cheap computing power has made it really easy to do bad research. Worse, stations take other peoples bad research (via Mediabase) and use it as the framework for their bad research.

 

[SuperQ]

And for KnoxBob, very few PD's HAVE to play what the consultant recommends.

But the reality of corporate politics are this.

If you play what the consultant thinks is right, and it doesn't work, you have a fifty fifty chance of keeping your job and seeing the consultant get fired.

If you choose to ignore the consultant and it doesn't work, you have a 100 percent chance of getting fired.

If you ignore the consultant and it does work, you will be a hero until the first down book. Then it will be your fault again.

PD's with mouths to feed learn to deal with that unfortunate situation.

 

[SuperQ]

Oh and an addendum to the above post. Consultants rarely tell you what to play. They tell you to do research (do they get a kickback?), and that's what you should play. And then when it doesn't work, they blame the research hoping to fire the research company instead of themselves or the PD. Improves everyone's odds of survival.

Yes, corporate radio does suck, but that genie ain't goin back in the bottle anytime soon.

 

[Gregg Rivers]

SuperQ hit the nail on the head! Thanks!
Radio is a business! END OF STORY! It must be successful from both a listener and commercial stand point. That in and of it self is a very hard position to obtain and maintain! You have to have a well liked product to attract the greatest number of listeners possible in order to attract advertisers. But you'll NEVER please everyone! That's impossible! It's radio 101 and I thought SuperQ and I (in past posts) had gone to great extremes to explain this.
Sandy, I think you should take the next step and seek employment at a radio station. I also think you should try to get a job in BOTH sales and programming. I believe you'd get a very clear idea of how it all works and what it takes to be successful and profitable. You could very well be the next top sales rep or PD, or not! At the very least, you should visit a station and shadow someone for a day or two! This is a very tough business. It's highly competitive and there are a lot of folks sitting on the side lines with ideas about what will make it better. I'm all ears, but I'll go out on a limb here and tell you that it may look and sound easy, but it is NOT! That's the facts and when you're not successful in this business, you end up in another business VERY FAST!
I tell you something else I've learned in my 20+ years in this business. No matter how great a programmer or on air talent you are (or THINK you are), you're NOT irreplaceable and the station will NOT go dark when you leave! This is my THIRD ride on WYNU. The last two times I left, WYNU didn't miss a beat! The next time I leave (hopefully a LONG, LONG time for now) it will STILL be here! That goes for anyone at ANY station no matter the market size or the jocks fame or programming genius! You can take that to the bank!
Radio is for profit! Least we never forget THAT! But we are ALL are for profit, because we all have this annoying habit of liking to EAT and live in a HOUSE and drive a CAR! LOL. Thank goodness for it too!

 

[Meepster]

I had no idea that Gregg was a Reverend, too, but he DID just "preach" the word.
There is NO JOB IN RADIO THAT IS TOTALLY SAFE!!!
(with the possible exception of "Owner", and that's not always a given.)

In any station...I don't CARE what people say, there's "Us" and "Them".
"Us" in this case being Programming, and "Them" being Sales.
The arguments are , "If we in Programming didn't provide you with a product to sell, none of you would have jobs to provide for yourself and your families!"
And...
"If it weren't for us in Sales producing revenue, you "Jocks" wouldn't have a job!
Thus, each department thinks it is the cog that makes the whole wheel turn.
The actual fact is that it's a combination of the two into one "Solid" that is successful.

I've always tended to be a "Programming" side guy on the simple fact that people have to listen before you can sell commercials and get any type of results for advertisers. It's the "Chicken and Egg" thing all over, but you MUST have a good product to sell.

Your job becomes to make as many listeners (and potential listerners) as happy as you can-as often and as long as you can. Period.

Although, as a seasoned radio veteran, I may hear things that I don't like on a station, it doesn't matter as long as there are listeners who like it. If something (Alice) sounds great to us old heads but gets no ratings from overall listeners, then it has to go.

While I think it'd be perfectly wonderful to hear "No Anchovies, Please" during the midday shift-it may absolutely freak out the majority of the regular listeners. You must cast as wide a net as you can (within your chosen format), and tweak it from there.

I think Mr. Rivers will tell you that a real programmers job is never done and always evolving.

 

[Gregg Rivers]

LOL @ Meep! Sorry bro but I've tried repeatedly to answer the same question.... *steps down from soap box* I'm cool!

 

[Sandscott]

I did work briefly in radio, granted it was small radio. I quickly left the business because the manufactured playlist depressed me. I would get dozens of request a day and knew that unless it was on the "approved playlist" I couldn't play it, yet I was supposed to tell the listeners "I will try to get it on" or "sure" knowing I was lying to the customer because my job depended on it.

The thing is I never run into people who like their local radio stations anymore. I am in an area where I can pick up Memphis and Jackson both. I listen to WYNU slightly more than Memphis simply because your playlist is slightly less repetitive, Crock 103 and 98.1 are horrid. However, I listen to satellite even more because I can hear some things I never hear on regular radio.

I contend that if a station could find a true balance between playing the standard stuff but throwing in two or three deep cuts an hour and yes even occassionally playing a new song by a veteran artists, having a legit request hour, having an 80's hard rock show, carrying Rockline, etc. the ratings could be even bigger, but the problem is all stations now stay the same and that bores me and most listeners to tears.

 

[SuperQ]

Just remember Sandscott, your requests come from an incredibly small portion of your audience. And in almost all cases those people are not representative of the vast majority of your audience.

Way back in the day, the station I worked at played the song Rappers Delight for about two weeks. We got as many complaints about it as we did requests. We then played it 7 to midnight for a few more weeks. It was our number one most requested song by a factor of 2 or 3 times for almost 9 months. Had we played that song as often as it was requested, we'd have all been looking for work.

It is true that there is probably less satisfaction with radio these days. That's less a function of what radio is doing differently than it is with the wide variety of alternatives that are available. We keep hearing that no body under the age of 25 even owns a radio any more (check Jerry Del Colliano's daily blog). Yet since 1990, cume and average quarter hours for the 12-34 audience are down between 5 and 10 percent. They're mostly still listening, maybe just not as much, and they have alternatives.

When I got started there really was no alternative other buying the single or album. Then came MTV, VH1, CD changers, the Internet, satellite, and now IPods. Radio is pretty much doing what it's always done, it's just got twice as many radio stations and a whole bunch of other outlets to compete with. That generally means you have to narrow your focus rather than broaden it. In the old days if there was one Top 40 station in town, they prided themselves on breaking new records. As soon as they got a competitor, they tightened the playlist and really played the hits.

That legend lives on on a much bigger scale.

 

[firepoint525]

I did work briefly in radio, granted it was small radio. I quickly left the business because the manufactured playlist depressed me. I would get dozens of request a day and knew that unless it was on the "approved playlist" I couldn't play it, yet I was supposed to tell the listeners "I will try to get it on" or "sure" knowing I was lying to the customer because my job depended on it.

The thing is I never run into people who like their local radio stations anymore. I am in an area where I can pick up Memphis and Jackson both. I listen to WYNU slightly more than Memphis simply because your playlist is slightly less repetitive, Crock 103 and 98.1 are horrid. However, I listen to satellite even more because I can hear some things I never hear on regular radio.

I contend that if a station could find a true balance between playing the standard stuff but throwing in two or three deep cuts an hour and yes even occassionally playing a new song by a veteran artists, having a legit request hour, having an 80's hard rock show, carrying Rockline, etc. the ratings could be even bigger, but the problem is all stations now stay the same and that bores me and most listeners to tears.

I felt the same way about having to lie to listeners. At my first station, we couldn't play anything published, or even co-published by ASCAP, because the station owed ASCAP money! If you don't think THAT will slim down a playlist, just check the publishing on all the music you play!

 

[PedroOrange]

I agree with most of what our elder board statesmen have posted. However, if I want to hear More Than A Feeling, I can find it on my iPod. You, as a PD, have to give me a reason to tune into your station. I have to connect with your air-talent and establish a relationship with your station.

PD's with mouths to feed learn to deal with that unfortunate situation.

I understand and agree with your statement, but isn't that sad. It's like PD's are beat-down government mules. All the creativity and energy has been zapped out of their system.

I tell you something else I've learned in my 20+ years in this business. No matter how great a programmer or on air talent you are (or THINK you are), you're NOT irreplaceable and the station will NOT go dark when you leave!

I agree with you Gregg, but again, isn't that sad? If owners/GM's would let talented and motivated individuals put together ideas in order to build an audience for the long term, then wouldn't that benefit the station in the long run.

I know, I'm a hopeless optimist...which is why I don't work in radio anymore.

I love radio...I wish I could pursue my passion, but it's just not a fun environment...ironic, isn't it?

PeDrO

 

[Sandscott]

Thanks everyone. The thing is I never run into anyone passionate about radio anymore and at one time I was. People want to hear deejays they can relate to and frankly I can't relate to any of the on air talent anymore. Mr.Rivers, had a good thing going just a year ago with his Shut Up and Rock Request show and then it disappeared. You can tell Gregg cares about the listeners, I don't hear that anymore.

Concerning the playlist, you are so right about "More Than A Feeling." One time I counted how many days in a row a rock station was going to play the Scorpions "Rock You Like A Hurricane." I counted eighteen straight days. We are talking about the Scorps who have a ton of albums and hits and we can only get two or three songs from them. What if once a blue moon you played "I Can't Explain" instead (The old WHO song), I am willing to bet not a single person would change the station and for a Scorps fan like myself I would go "Oh wow, haven't heard that one in a while."

I contend you can play the standards, but you mean to tell me you can't play one or two deep cuts an hour? You mean to tell me that you will run off listeners if you play a song by The Moody Blues, who used to be classic rock staples? And why is that you can play Bon Jovi or Guns N Roses who were big in the 80's but can't play something like Dokken "Alone Again" which was also a hit in that time frame?

That is what drives me crazy. I remember seeing an interview with country legend Kenny Rogers and he said something that made me think. He mentioned it is very frustrating to still play over a hundred shows a year and have a new album out that is drawing critical reviews and look in the crowd and everyone has a blank stare on their face. It is because radio won't push artists anymore. It isn't about quality anymore, it is not about putting an album over the top. Most hits were formed in the early days because a few renegade program directors decided to take a few chances and things "caught on."

If I only represent a small portion of the listening audience then I must have been born in a strange area because everyone I talk to feels the same way. Let's look at 103 and then I will shut up. They tried the old tried and true formula of shortening the playlist, repetition, etc and now all their listeners are gone. Did people just grow tired of a 35 plus year format, or did they hear "Stairway" that they already have on their I-Pod's one too many times.

 

[SuperQ]

Most people blame consolidation. But I blame the Reagan era FCC for deciding that we needed another 2,000 or so radio stations, and allowing a few hundred more to gravitate into bigger adjacent markets. Having so many stations forces almost everyone into niche programming. Back in the day I could play Neil Diamond, Ted Nugent, Stevie Wonder and AC/DC in the same hour on a Top 40 station. Now we have Pop Top 40, Rhythmic Top 40, Adult Top 40.... We have mainstream AC, Hot AC, Oldies based AC, Soft AC.... and on and on. When you have such a narrow piece of the pie, there is no room for mistakes... Thus we must do safe radio.

When a small market like Jackson, Tennessee has 16 signals show up in Arbitron (not counting the Memphis signals), the passion is spread way too thin. And then you have good regional business towns like Paducah, Ky with 10 or 12 and they're not even a rated market.

I'll bet there many thousands of people in any classic rock audience that would be very happy if they never heard another Scorpions song for the rest of their lives. But at least some them would like more Devo. One man's "oh wow" deep cut is another man's "WTF is this." No, playing a deep cut won't drive off your audience. But if they become trained to think that twice an hour you're going to play a song they've never heard of, or don't like....you will eventually run them off.

One more thing. For you to know exactly how many days in a row a station plays the Scorpions song shows you're listening to waaay too much radio. I thought you didn't like us any more.

 

[PedroOrange]

I'll bet there many thousands of people in any classic rock audience that would be very happy if they never heard another Scorpions song for the rest of their lives. But at least some them would like more Devo. One man's "oh wow" deep cut is another man's "WTF is this." No, playing a deep cut won't drive off your audience. But if they become trained to think that twice an hour you're going to play a song they've never heard of, or don't like....you will eventually run them off.

Again, I agree with you. I remember working at an active rock station a few years ago and discussing adds for the week with the MD. He opted to go with the new Sammy Hagar song over a song from Theory of a Deadman. I didn't agree at the time...but he raised a valid point: People will listen to a new Sammy song because he is a brand name.

However, if MD's and PD's would take a few chances on really good songs (and there are a lot that get overlooked), they might find the listener actually enjoys them.

It's all in how you present the song... build it up...pre-sell and post-sell the song. You can't just throw it out there and let it go on it's own...of course folks will change the channel...I would. If you market the song...with hype and information on the band, it might pay off.

Again, you PDs and MDs have mouths to feed and it's hard to take chances. I completely understand where you're coming from.

But, it's always good to take in suggestions and comments (whether you use them or not)...because someone might have an idea that helps take the station in a positive and profitable direction.

PeDrO

 

[SuperQ]

You are quite correct....

It MIGHT pay off. But when jobs are on the line....
You know the rest of the story.

 

[PedroOrange]

It MIGHT pay off. But when jobs are on the line....
You know the rest of the story.

Then...passion and drive in radio is all but left behind.

I still grieve for it daily.



PeDrO

 

[Sandscott]

Actually sir, you are correct (And a bit of a smartass just for the record) I don't have the same passion for radio anymore. The thing is I WANT to like it. When I did my experiment concerning the Scorps. it was done a few years ago when I still listened more often and I would turn on the radio for just a few hours AT THE SAME TIME everyday between the hours of three and five. That is how predictable it was.

To use your example, I have no real affection for DEVO but I would be fine if a station played that band just because it would be something different. You know I am really a big fan of southern fried chicken. I love it and enjoy having it weekly, but I would grow sick of it if I ate everyday for almost every meal. True music fans like hearing a variety of music. The fact is,and there are a variety of reasons for this, radio is a dying art and people are sick of it, because it is not radio anymore. You are supposed to be in the entertainment business more or less, but people are not being entertained anymore.