• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Question: What Years Constitute "Oldies"?

Re: paper adds-Some Examples

WCBS-FM, until 2001 played The 81 by Candy and The Kisses and It's Gonna Take A Miracle by The Royalettes. Two songs that did not do well on Billboard but were big hits in town.

WOGL also played them, and I think they played Let's Get Lost On A Country Road by The Kit Kats.

I am glad that these songs were played. When I went through Cincinatti, I heard Walk Tall by The 2 Of Clubs. Not a national hit, but loved in the Queen City.


> > [Remember kids - hindsight is 20/20. All thoes cover songs
>
> > from the 50's sucked wind and should never see radio
> airplay
> > again....]
>
>
>
> Maybe they did suck wind. But if you're programming to an
> audience that remembers the '50s (and I'm not talking about
> Oldies geeks) then they probably DON'T remembrer the
> original, unplayed versions.
>
<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected]</P>
 
playlist

And that small a number of (still questionable, in my book) hits will not make or break you. Remember, many folks who may have heard those titles for a short time way back then may not even live in your area anymore PLUS all those who've since moved there may have NEVER heard them. A noble thought but a useless exercise.

Oldies library in the thousands? First, most digital storage systems do not have unlimited drive space. If you're never going to play them, why have them hog drive space? Long term, that just bogs down the system.

My .02-- if you're playing Oldies, you may have a full-time everyday playlist around 600-750 (with about 400 of those being the biggest, most in-demand hits).
After that, for special programming, theme weekends, etc., there really are no more than about another 500-750 worth mixing in occasionally. Having "thousands" just so you can say you have that many titles may feel good but it won't get you any more listeners or make you any more revenue.

Please don't let the whole Variety Hits or iPod craze get us going overboard here. Oldies playing 200-300 titles is criminal- Oldies over-reacting and trying to have THOUSANDS of titles to play is also nuts.

>
> Yeah, but we're talking about some very small number of very
> BIG regional/local hits. Like the local garage band that
> had one big dance hall hit, but never got out of the city.
>
> And, again, it's not regularly programmed. But, as I
> contend, SHOULD at least be in the record library.
>
> Your *library*, even if you never play them, should be in
> the thousands. If you're any oldies station of worth,
> you've snatched up the library of your local Top 40
> powerhouse(s) of the 60s and 70s (unless they sold those 45s
> and LPs to the local merchant).
>
 
Paper adds vs. regional hits

And sticking with songs like that led to CBS-FM's demise. Those kinds of songs give a woody to a handful of listeners but 90% of those who hear them look at their radio and say "what the HELL was that?!".

BTW- paper adds are not the same as regional hits. Paper Adds are songs radio stations put on their surveys and reported to record companies to get favors. Most were barely (or even not) played and did not amount to much. Yet, the mass of paper adds nationally could indeed fuel a run on the charts long enough to con other stations watching those markets to also play them for awhile. Of course, everybody discovered they were stiffs anyway and pretty quickly dropped them completely.

> WCBS-FM, until 2001 played The 81 by Candy and The Kisses
> and It's Gonna Take A Miracle by The Royalettes. Two songs
> that did not do well on Billboard but were big hits in town.
>
>
> WOGL also played them, and I think they played Let's Get
> Lost On A Country Road by The Kit Kats.
>
> I am glad that these songs were played. When I went through
> Cincinatti, I heard Walk Tall by The 2 Of Clubs. Not a
> national hit, but loved in the Queen City.
 
Re: paper adds

Sorry, man- Bobby The D is absolutely 100% correct on this one.

CHARTS CHARTS CHARTS- listeners don't care, period. The Little Richard version is THE hit version, ain't no doubt about it.

>
> The Pat Boone version reached a higher position on the
> NATIONAL charts than the Little Richard version (#12 vs
> #17). But sometimes we can have it both eays. WRLL, the
> great station that it is, played "I Hear You Knocking" by
> Gale Storm last week. It reached #2 in 1955. Today they
> played the Smiley Lewis version. It didn't even chart.
>
 
Re: paper adds

> Sorry, man- Bobby The D is absolutely 100% correct on this
> one.
>
> CHARTS CHARTS CHARTS- listeners don't care, period. The
> Little Richard version is THE hit version, ain't no doubt
> about it.

Yes, you can't go by charts.


> > The Pat Boone version reached a higher position on the
> > NATIONAL charts than the Little Richard version (#12 vs
> > #17). But sometimes we can have it both eays. WRLL, the
> > great station that it is, played "I Hear You Knocking" by
> > Gale Storm last week. It reached #2 in 1955. Today they
> > played the Smiley Lewis version. It didn't even chart.
> >
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin

</P>
 
Re: Paper adds vs. regional hits

> And sticking with songs like that led to CBS-FM's demise.
> Those kinds of songs give a woody to a handful of listeners
> but 90% of those who hear them look at their radio and say
> "what the HELL was that?!".

Excuse me - CBS-FM hasnt played thoes songs in YEARS! WOGL, which is doing VERY well in the raitings, plays both on Sunday nights. The 1st time I heard either of thoes songs was with Hyski or Bob Pantano. And guess what...I didnt tune out! Even local hits can be good....

> > WCBS-FM, until 2001 played The 81 by Candy and The Kisses
> > and It's Gonna Take A Miracle by The Royalettes. Two
> songs
> > that did not do well on Billboard but were big hits in
> town.
> >
> >
> > WOGL also played them, and I think they played Let's Get
> > Lost On A Country Road by The Kit Kats.
> >
> > I am glad that these songs were played. When I went
> through
> > Cincinatti, I heard Walk Tall by The 2 Of Clubs. Not a
> > national hit, but loved in the Queen City.
>
<P ID="signature">______________

AOL IM: wnjoldies or jamminoldies105
CBS-FM lives at http://67.83.117.32:8010
Oldies Board co-moderator</P>
 
Re: playlist

> And that small a number of (still questionable, in my book)
> hits will not make or break you. Remember, many folks who
> may have heard those titles for a short time way back then
> may not even live in your area anymore PLUS all those who've
> since moved there may have NEVER heard them. A noble
> thought but a useless exercise.

But in areas like Cleveland, the maxim still holds: if you're about 50 and live in Cleveland, chances are you grew up there. (Same doesn't hold true for NYC, Washington, Florida, Phoenix, LA, etc.) It's a Rust Belt mentality. That being the case, I'm willing to chance the fact that 70% or more of the audience remembers that song. Maybe I'm just more a chancer than most. Which is why CC will never hire me (though they should, I work cheap).

> Oldies library in the thousands? First, most digital
> storage systems do not have unlimited drive space. If
> you're never going to play them, why have them hog drive
> space? Long term, that just bogs down the system.

I wasn't talking hard drive space, but you have a point. Maybe it's because I subscribe to the Thomas Jefferson school (paraphrasing his statement about the Library of Congress): THERE IS NO OLDIE THAT A JOCK (OR PD) MAY NOT, FROM TIME TO TIME, WISH TO PLAY. So, devote a spare room in the studio complex for records (!) and CDs. Request shows and specialty shows/weekends should be open-ended, not just "Oh, I'll wait and see if someone requests something from our 300 song playlist".

> My .02-- if you're playing Oldies, you may have a full-time
> everyday playlist around 600-750 (with about 400 of those
> being the biggest, most in-demand hits).

Agreed. 400 big in-demand is bigger than some stations' ENTIRE playlist.

> After that, for special programming, theme weekends, etc.,
> there really are no more than about another 500-750 worth
> mixing in occasionally. Having "thousands" just so you can
> say you have that many titles may feel good but it won't get
> you any more listeners or make you any more revenue.

Question for you, which I noticed recently on a WMJI Beatles Twin-Spin Weekend: on a theme like that, should not the Fab Four's entire 200+ catalogue, as well as outtakes and Anthology tracks be fair game? I mention this because 10 years ago, a WMJI Beatles Weekend had all those things. Now, the Beatles Twin-Spin is Hey Jude and Help, I Wanna Hold Your Hand and Yellow Submarine, Let it Be and Something. I wonder if they know you can look beyond just "Past Masters 1 & 2"?

> Please don't let the whole Variety Hits or iPod craze get us
> going overboard here. Oldies playing 200-300 titles is
> criminal- Oldies over-reacting and trying to have THOUSANDS
> of titles to play is also nuts.

Agreed again. Not thousands in the playlist, but thousands available in all media.
 
regional hits

The implication was they were playing them until a few years ago.

It all boils down to a matter of choice- every local PD has to determine if these songs really, REALLY do them any good. If they want to play some long-lost local hit on some Sunday night specialty show, fine.

But I continue to maintain that the population makeup of most markets has changed so dramatically since most of these local hits were on the radio- and I stand behind the statement that most of your audience won't know the tunes.

>
> Excuse me - CBS-FM hasnt played thoes songs in YEARS! WOGL,
> which is doing VERY well in the raitings, plays both on
> Sunday nights. The 1st time I heard either of thoes songs
> was with Hyski or Bob Pantano. And guess what...I didnt tune
> out! Even local hits can be good....
>
> > > WCBS-FM, until 2001 played The 81 by Candy and The
> Kisses and It's Gonna Take A Miracle by The Royalettes. Two
> > songs that did not do well on Billboard but were big hits in
> > town.
> > >
 
Re: playlist

But just because a jock may wish to play it doesn't mean it's right for the station. Think about all the jocks we worked with- if we left the music up to most of them, our stations would've been in ruins <LMAO>
>
> I wasn't talking hard drive space, but you have a point.
> Maybe it's because I subscribe to the Thomas Jefferson
> school (paraphrasing his statement about the Library of
> Congress): THERE IS NO OLDIE THAT A JOCK (OR PD) MAY NOT,
> FROM TIME TO TIME, WISH TO PLAY.
>

You could do it like that- the challenge with the Beatles is there are SO many to pick from. There are obvious b-side-type songs like This Boy and I'll Back that, for most listeners, are "Oh-wow!". You Can't Do That, Birthday, Don't Bring Me Down- there are just tons and I do think there is a point where you can play an album title that most really couldn't care less about hearing. But, for my percpetion of most audience's taste, a twin spin of Help b/w Birthday cooks.
Hey Jude followed by She's A Woman, Till There Was You or Act Naturdally makes sense because you have a stone smash followed by a "man, I haven't heard that in years!" song- familiar enough without an LP cut just for the sake of an obscure Beatles LP cut.
>
> Question for you, which I noticed recently on a WMJI Beatles
> Twin-Spin Weekend: on a theme like that, should not the Fab
> Four's entire 200+ catalogue, as well as outtakes and
> Anthology tracks be fair game? I mention this because 10
> years ago, a WMJI Beatles Weekend had all those things.
> Now, the Beatles Twin-Spin is Hey Jude and Help, I Wanna
> Hold Your Hand and Yellow Submarine, Let it Be and
> Something. I wonder if they know you can look beyond just
> "Past Masters 1 & 2"?
>
> > Please don't let the whole Variety Hits or iPod craze get
> us going overboard here. Oldies playing 200-300 titles is
> > criminal- Oldies over-reacting and trying to have
> THOUSANDS of titles to play is also nuts.
>
> Agreed again. Not thousands in the playlist, but thousands
> available in all media.
>
 
Re: paper adds

> [Sorry, man- Bobby The D is absolutely 100% correct on this
> one.
>
> CHARTS CHARTS CHARTS- listeners don't care, period. The
> Little Richard version is THE hit version, ain't no doubt
> about it.]


Depends on what audience you're programming to. If your wife is 55+, ask HER which version she likes best. Remember, teen females bought 50% of the records back in the '50s.
 
then/now

We understand what some people liked BACK THEN. All we care about today is what THEY care about TODAY. Has it ever occoured to you that people today don't think exactly the way they thought in 1960? They do not- people's tastes, desires and expectations change. It's part of human nature.

If you think EXACTLY the same way you thought when you were 15, I feel badly for you.


> Depends on what audience you're programming to. If your
> wife is 55+, ask HER which version she likes best.
> Remember, teen females bought 50% of the records back in the
> '50s.
>
 
Re: paper adds

>
> If you're any oldies station of worth,
> you've snatched up the library of your local Top 40
> powerhouse(s) of the 60s and 70s (unless they sold those 45s
> and LPs to the local merchant).
>


Ya, right. First of all, most of those local Top 40 powerhouses faded away by the late 70s/early 80s so those libraries are long gone (probably well-pillaged by staffers). Secondly, what modern-day FM would want a library of old cue-burnt 45s to begin with?
 
Re: playlist

>
> But in areas like Cleveland, the maxim still holds: if
> you're about 50 and live in Cleveland, chances are you grew
> up there. (Same doesn't hold true for NYC, Washington,
> Florida, Phoenix, LA, etc.) It's a Rust Belt mentality.


But there are relatively few cities to which this criteria would apply.


> Question for you, which I noticed recently on a WMJI Beatles
> Twin-Spin Weekend: on a theme like that, should not the Fab
> Four's entire 200+ catalogue, as well as outtakes and
> Anthology tracks be fair game? I mention this because 10
> years ago, a WMJI Beatles Weekend had all those things.
> Now, the Beatles Twin-Spin is Hey Jude and Help, I Wanna
> Hold Your Hand and Yellow Submarine, Let it Be and
> Something. I wonder if they know you can look beyond just
> "Past Masters 1 & 2"?

No out-takes, no alternate versions. Ever. Nor would I play album cuts other than fairly well-known ones...certainly nothing other than maybe "Obladi Oblada" or "Birthday" from the White Album. People wanna hear the hits, not stuff only of interest to collectors. Granted, your Beatles library should contain more than 10 songs, but 200 is waaay to far in the other direction.
 
"The Mighty 1190"

> How can you get 1190? I could not even get them at night in
> Hill County. That is less than fifty miles south of their
> transmitter.


Austin is about 200 miles in Dallas. The 5,000-watt nighttime signal is highly directional and has to protect among other stations WOAI on 1200 in San Antonio.

If you're in Dallas, take a listen. The audio is superb for AM. They must play double the number of songs that Jack does.

Once I heard "King Tut" by Steve Martin followed by Bad Company's "Can't Get Enough".


> Mighty 1190 does a good job and I wish I could get them here
> in Austin. It would be nice if there were variations of the
> format in other stations. But I starting to dream. So I
> will stop.
>
>
> Actually, that sounds a lot like what KFXR "The Mighty 1190"
> is doing in Dallas to counter Jack. When I'm getting it as
> nighttime DX, I usually linger for a while because they're
> playing great music.
>
> Oldies was originally "anything CHR hasn't played for at
> least a year or so" anyway, which basically is Jack. Or at
> least his broader-focused kin working for Entercom and CC.
>
 
Re: then/now

> [We understand what some people liked BACK THEN. All we care
> about today is what THEY care about TODAY. Has it ever
> occoured to you that people today don't think exactly the
> way they thought in 1960? They do not- people's tastes,
> desires and expectations change. It's part of human nature.]



I don't know who "we" is. But if you follow this thread backwards you'll see that it started with a discussion about stations like Chicago's WRLL who program to an audience that remembers Top 40 radio in the '50s & '60s, NOT an audience that was cultivated by so-called "oldies" programmers.
 
Re: "Oldies" Years

> > [Am I to presume WRLL has actual figures on sales and
> > jukebox
> > > play from their era? I doubt it. Radio station surveys
>
> > and
> > > even Billboard charts were not necessarily a very
> accurate
> >
> > > picture of popularity.]
> >
> >
> > Name a better source than Billboard.
> >
> >
>
> Alas, there really aren't any accurate charts from that era.
> Billboard's charts are only as good as the data they
> received, and there were no real ways to verify the accuracy
> of what was reported...either sales or airplay.
>
> Remember in the late 80s when "Dark Side Of The Moon" held
> the record for some phenominal number of weeks on the album
> chart? Dropped off like a stone once Soundscan was
> implemented. You'll notice the changes in the Hot 100 once
> BDS was implemented too...it marked the end of "paper adds".
>
"Dark Side of the Moon" did not drop like a stone! It slowly eased its way off the chart, came back and dropped off again after 14 years! I believe this happened before Soundscan was put into effect. Little Richards version of just about anything didn't do as well on the charts as it should have because stations refused to play his music and parents didn't allow their kids to buy it! Fats Domino had a similar problem: Enter Pat Boone. You can't put the Beatles in the same category as any other artist! Other than "Why Don't We Do It In The Road", "Revolution #9" and a handful of other songs, virtually their entire Capitol/Apple catalog should be fair game between Oldies and Classic Rock stations!
 
Re: "Oldies" Years

> > > [Am I to presume WRLL has actual figures on sales and
> > > jukebox
> > > > play from their era? I doubt it. Radio station
> surveys
> >
> > > and
> > > > even Billboard charts were not necessarily a very
> > accurate
> > >
> > > > picture of popularity.]
> > >
> > >
> > > Name a better source than Billboard.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Alas, there really aren't any accurate charts from that
> era.
> > Billboard's charts are only as good as the data they
> > received, and there were no real ways to verify the
> accuracy
> > of what was reported...either sales or airplay.
> >
> > Remember in the late 80s when "Dark Side Of The Moon" held
>
> > the record for some phenominal number of weeks on the
> album
> > chart? Dropped off like a stone once Soundscan was
> > implemented. You'll notice the changes in the Hot 100
> once
> > BDS was implemented too...it marked the end of "paper
> adds".
> >
> "Dark Side of the Moon" did not drop like a stone! It
> slowly eased its way off the chart, came back and dropped
> off again after 14 years! I believe this happened before
> Soundscan was put into effect. Little Richards version of
> just about anything didn't do as well on the charts as it
> should have because stations refused to play his music and
> parents didn't allow their kids to buy it! Fats Domino had
> a similar problem: Enter Pat Boone. You can't put the
> Beatles in the same category as any other artist! Other
> than "Why Don't We Do It In The Road", "Revolution #9" and a
> handful of other songs, virtually their entire Capitol/Apple
> catalog should be fair game between Oldies and Classic Rock
> stations!
>
I'm sorry about the confusing position of my previous post. I meant to place it at the bottom of this thread.
 
Re: then/now

I wasn't answering the original question- I was responding to your statement regarding original and cover versions of songs when you asked me:

"Depends on what audience you're programming to. If your wife is 55+, ask HER which version she likes best. Remember, teen females bought 50% of the records back in the '50s"

You're stuck on the merits of a handful of Pat Boone-like originals and making a mountain out of what amounts to no more than an ant hill. And my response AGAIN to your question IS:

> We understand what some people liked BACK THEN. All we
> care about today is what THEY care about TODAY. Has it ever
> occoured to you that people today don't think exactly the
> way they thought in 1960? They do not- people's tastes,
> desires and expectations change. It's part of humaN nature.
>
Re-read your statement (in quotes) then read my response. I answered directly.


> I don't know who "we" is. But if you follow this thread
> backwards you'll see that it started with a discussion about
> stations like Chicago's WRLL who program to an audience that
> remembers Top 40 radio in the '50s & '60s, NOT an audience
> that was cultivated by so-called "oldies" programmers.
>
> >
 
Re: "The Mighty 1190"

> > How can you get 1190? I could not even get them at night
> in
> > Hill County. That is less than fifty miles south of their
>
> > transmitter.
>
>
> Austin is about 200 miles in Dallas. The 5,000-watt
> nighttime signal is highly directional and has to protect
> among other stations WOAI on 1200 in San Antonio.
>
> If you're in Dallas, take a listen. The audio is superb for
> AM. They must play double the number of songs that Jack
> does.
>
> Once I heard "King Tut" by Steve Martin followed by Bad
> Company's "Can't Get Enough".

The Might 1190 sounds like a great station with a lot of variety. I wish I could listen to them.

> > Mighty 1190 does a good job and I wish I could get them
> here
> > in Austin. It would be nice if there were variations of
> the
> > format in other stations. But I starting to dream. So I
> > will stop.
> >
> >
> > Actually, that sounds a lot like what KFXR "The Mighty
> 1190"
> > is doing in Dallas to counter Jack. When I'm getting it as
>
> > nighttime DX, I usually linger for a while because they're
>
> > playing great music.
> >
> > Oldies was originally "anything CHR hasn't played for at
> > least a year or so" anyway, which basically is Jack. Or at
>
> > least his broader-focused kin working for Entercom and CC.
>
> >
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin

</P>
 
Re: regional hits

> The implication was they were playing them until a few years
> ago.
>
> It all boils down to a matter of choice- every local PD has
> to determine if these songs really, REALLY do them any good.
> If they want to play some long-lost local hit on some
> Sunday night specialty show, fine.

Agreed. If any oldies station is going to play a long lost local hit, a specialty show or weekend would be good, but I also think it would be ok to throw into the music mix ONCE in a blue moon. It adds a little variety. Of course, that would probably be the only station playing that song of course. For listeners that remember the song, it will probably be "oh wow". And even if someone never heard it before, doesn't mean they won't like the song. You never know.

> But I continue to maintain that the population makeup of
> most markets has changed so dramatically since most of these
> local hits were on the radio- and I stand behind the
> statement that most of your audience won't know the tunes.
>
> >
> > Excuse me - CBS-FM hasnt played thoes songs in YEARS!
> WOGL,
> > which is doing VERY well in the raitings, plays both on
> > Sunday nights. The 1st time I heard either of thoes songs
> > was with Hyski or Bob Pantano. And guess what...I didnt
> tune
> > out! Even local hits can be good....
> >
> > > > WCBS-FM, until 2001 played The 81 by Candy and The
> > Kisses and It's Gonna Take A Miracle by The Royalettes.
> Two
> > > songs that did not do well on Billboard but were big
> hits in
> > > town.
> > > >
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin

</P>
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom