Questions about KYW and WPHT's Signals

[Gregg]

KYW 1060 is a fulltime 50,000 watt station, a Class 1-B station according to the old FCC rankings. But they have quite a tortured signal, if you look it up on www.radio-locator.com

They null to the southwest to protect Mexico (1060 is a Mexican clear-channel frequency) and to the northeast to protect 1050 WEPN. But here are my two questions about KYW...

A) Doesn't this station pre-date WEPN? Why are they protecting a 50,000 watt NYC station that went on the air AFTER they did?

And B) Who are they protecting in Mexico? I got out my old Broadcasting Yearbook from 1977 and there doesn't seem to be any high-powered stations on 1060 in Mexico. There's a station in Mexico City but it's listed as only 1000 watts. Is KYW protecting a 1000 watt station 2000 miles away?

As for WPHT, this is an original Class 1-A station, on its own clear channel frequency, 1210. So why are they so hard to pick up in the NYC area? As you drive around Philadelphia, many NYC AM stations come in great. My scanner stops at 660, 710 and 770 with regularity in Philly. And 820, 880, 1130 and 1190 come in fairly well. So why is it so hard to hear Philadelphia's non-directional 50,000 watt station at 1210 in NYC? And no other Philly stations even create a blip in the NY area.



Gregg
[email protected]

 

[DToTheJ]

I will add that years ago, 1190's owner purchased the station WOWO on the same frequency in Fort Wayne, IN, primarily for the purpose of turning their transmitter down some, so that 1190 in New York can no longer be a daytimer.

 

[DanStrassberg]

KYW 1060 is a fulltime 50,000 watt station, a Class 1-B station according to the old FCC rankings. But they have quite a tortured signal, if you look it up on www.radio-locator.com

Yes, KYW predates WHN, which, AFAIK, was the original predecessor of today's WEPN. KYW started out in Chicago but was later (I don't know when) forced to move (and chose to move to Philadelphia) to comply with an FCC anti-duopoly rule. I don't know what frequencies WHN and KYW were on before the March 31 1941 NARBA agreement reshuffled AM channel assignments throughout North America and extended the band to 1600 kHz (OK, 1600 kc--the term Hz wouldn't be invented for about another 20 years). Before NARBA, the band extended only to 1500 kHz with three experimental high-fidelity channels on 1530, 1550, and 1570. You can probably find out somewhere on the Web what frequencies KYW and WHN were on pre-NARBA. In that area of the band, NARBA forced most stations to move up 40 kHz but I think that KYW or WHN or both may have been exceptions to the 40-kHz move in that part of the band.

Anyhow, NARBA granted 1050 to New York and 1060 to Philadelphia and allowed both stations to increase to 50 kW-U. Clearly, that wasn't going to work without the use of directional antennas. 1050 was a Mexican IA channel and WHN had to protect the Mexican border, which meant that it would automatically protect Philadelphia. It was written into NARBA that the full-time US Class II stations on the Mexican IA channels of 1050 (New York) and 1220 (Cleveland, originally WGAR, now, I believe, WHK) had to operate DA-1. Note that 1060 was a IB channel that was shared by the US and Mexico; it was NOT a IA channel like 1050 and 1220. Note also that, unlike KYW, which was a IB, WHN and WGAR were Class IIs.

Anyhow NARBA forced KYW to directionalize to protect both New York and Mexico. The arrangement will have been in effect for 68 years at the end of next month.

As for reception of WPHT in New York, first off, compare applies with apples. Check WPHT someplace in northern NJ AWAY from areas like Secaucus and Lyndhurst where the AM band is so crowded with HUGE signals that most radios will saturate and make all but the strongest signals disappear. Also remember that 1210 is not 660 or 710 or 770. The higher you go in the AM band, the more rapidly signals fall off with distance. Secondly, I suspect that the soil conductivity in the area of South Jersey where WPHT is located is not the equal of the conductivity in the Jersey Meadowlands, where all of the New York AMs are located--except for WFAN, WCBS, and WQEW. OK, I guess technically WABC (Lodi) is not in the Meadowlands, but it is very close. I don't think WPHT is in an area of poor conductivity, but the huge salt marsh of the Meadowlands is just about unequalled, particularly in major metropolitan areas of the US. Only San Francisco has anything roughly equivalent. Even Seattle with Vashon Island has nothing comparable to the Meadowlands because, once you come ashore from Puget Sound, the conductuvity is horrendous.

 

[kms575]

For what it's worth, I pick up a pretty decent nighttime signal of KYW and WPHT in the New Haven area, sometimes better that WABC.

 

[w9wi]

Yes, KYW predates WHN, which, AFAIK, was the original predecessor of today's WEPN.

True.

KYW started out in Chicago but was later (I don't know when) forced to move (and chose to move to Philadelphia) to comply with an FCC anti-duopoly rule.

Looking at the old magazines on David Eduardo's website, KYW was listed in Chicago in the February 1934 White's Radio Log and in Philadelphia in the April 1935 Radex. I have a vague recollection of reading the move happened in the summer of 1934.

I don't know what frequencies WHN and KYW were on before the March 31 1941 NARBA agreement reshuffled AM channel assignments throughout North America and extended the band to 1600 kHz (OK, 1600 kc--the term Hz wouldn't be invented for about another 20 years). Before NARBA, the band extended only to 1500 kHz with three experimental high-fidelity channels on 1530, 1550, and 1570. You can probably find out somewhere on the Web what frequencies KYW and WHN were on pre-NARBA. In that area of the band, NARBA forced most stations to move up 40 kHz but I think that KYW or WHN or both may have been exceptions to the 40-kHz move in that part of the band.

Actually they weren't - they did indeed move from 1020 and 1010 respectively. KYW was a completely clear channel (no other U.S. or Canadian station at night; during the day WDZ, then in Tuscola, Ill., also operated on 1020. WDZ moved up to 1050 (not 1060) with NARBA and later ended up in Decatur. (are WDZ and WHA the only two remaining Class D stations with three-letter calls?)

WHN shared 1010 with KQW San Jose (now KCBS-740 San Francisco), WNOX Knoxville (now WNML-990), and the time-sharing pair KGGF Coffeyville, Kans. (now on 690) and WNAD Norman, Okla. (now WWLS-640). There were also six low-powered Canadian stations on the frequency. (but CFRB was on 690) Almost all of them went elsewhere with NARBA; on 1050 WHN had only WDZ and a low-powered Cuban to share with -- and 150kw XEG Monterrey.

 

[DanStrassberg]

are WDZ and WHA the only two remaining Class D stations with three-letter calls?

I sure don't know, but I believe that there is more than one Class C AM (graveyarder) with a three-letter call. One of them, I believe, is KGY in Olympia WA. Another is somewhere in California's Central Valley (can't remember the call sign, the CoL--Stockton, maybe--or the frequency).

As for CFRB, that's fascinating! I knew that 690 was a Canadian clear channel before 740 became one and that NARBA moved 690 to Montreal (to move it away from WLW, I assume) and dropped 740 into Toronto as a replacement. But when I was a kid in the '40s (after NARBA), CFRB was on 860 and CJBC was on 1010. Back in those days, there was no CRTC; the CBC ran the radio networks and quite a few stations AND did the FCC thing for Canada (talk about conflicts of interest!) The CBC had acquired CJBC and wanted the 860 clear channel for it. So CFRB was ordered to swap frequencies with CJBC (which back then still broadcast in English). There was (and supposedly still is) an agreement on the books that if the CBC ever wants to give up CJBC, CFRB has first dibs on 860. I think that CFRB was Canada's first Class-I-in-name-only AM. Canada now has quite a few such stations but I think that, for decades, CFRB was the only Canadian station that was called a Class I even though it received none of the protections afforded to other Class Is.

 

[DG02816]

I think KYW protects XEEP in Mexico City; they're 100 kW-D, 20 kW-N, non directional. This is also why 1060 New Orleans cuts to 5 kW at night from 50 days......

 

[deepstblu]

(are WDZ and WHA the only two remaining Class D stations with three-letter calls?)

WEW in St. Louis is still around as a Class D.

 

[DanStrassberg]

(are WDZ and WHA the only two remaining Class D stations with three-letter calls?)

WEW in St. Louis is still around as a Class D.

Yup! Although I believe WEW was recently granted just under 250W of night power (directional to protect WABC) and 10 kW-D, so it can cover St Louis fairly well at night (and very well by day). I suspect that, thanks to the lower frequency, WEW covers the market better at night than does Class B KXEN, which runs 250W or just a little more at night on 1010 (and 50 kW-D from six towers).

 

[w9wi]

are WDZ and WHA the only two remaining Class D stations with three-letter calls?

I sure don't know, but I believe that there is more than one Class C AM (graveyarder) with a three-letter call. One of them, I believe, is KGY in Olympia WA. Another is somewhere in California's Central Valley (can't remember the call sign, the CoL--Stockton, maybe--or the frequency).

Well, Rick B. answered that one, adding WEW to the list...

The other Class C you're thinking of is indeed in Stockton, KWG.

I cheated & looked 'em up in the database:

There are six Class C's with 3-letter calls: KFH, KGY, KOY, KWG, KXO, and WOL.
We've already named all three Class D's with 3-letter calls. (WDZ, WEW, WHA) (I do see a CP for 10,000/200 DA-2 for WEW. Doesn't look like that's going to be enough to lift WEW from Class D status though.)
There are four 3-letter calls on FM stations: KDB, KSD, KUT, and WRR. ("WJZ-FM" is formally a five-letter call)
There are three 3-letter calls on TV stations: KGW, WIS, WJW. ("WHA-TV", again, is formally a five-letter call)

As for CFRB, that's fascinating! I knew that 690 was a Canadian clear channel before 740 became one and that NARBA moved 690 to Montreal (to move it away from WLW, I assume) and dropped 740 into Toronto as a replacement. But when I was a kid in the '40s (after NARBA), CFRB was on 860 and CJBC was on 1010. Back in those days, there was no CRTC; the CBC ran the radio networks and quite a few stations AND did the FCC thing for Canada (talk about conflicts of interest!) The CBC had acquired CJBC and wanted the 860 clear channel for it. So CFRB was ordered to swap frequencies with CJBC (which back then still broadcast in English). There was (and supposedly still is) an agreement on the books that if the CBC ever wants to give up CJBC, CFRB has first dibs on 860. I think that CFRB was Canada's first Class-I-in-name-only AM. Canada now has quite a few such stations but I think that, for decades, CFRB was the only Canadian station that was called a Class I even though it received none of the protections afforded to other Class Is.

Supposedly when WLW was running 500kw, a few months after they started they were ordered to install a second tower, creating a DA, to limit their radiation towards CFRB to what it would be if WLW were just 50kw. I might guess that even with the DA and WLW running only 50k the interference might still have been an issue.

It looks like CBL has been on 740 since NARBA. Before that they'd been on 840 since 1935 (when they were CRCT) - before that, 960, before that, 1120 sharing with a CFCA, and before that back to 840 since at least 1928.

CFRB, as you say, ended up on 1010 after swapping 860 with CJBC sometime around 1949. Before NARBA they were on 690. (it looks like about the same time NARBA changed the frequency from 840 to 860, use of that frequency was changed from CBL to CFRB when CBL went to the newly-available 740 channel.) CFRB was on 690 since 1931, though in 1932 they were sharing with a CNRX (presumably a second CN Railroad station, second to the CNRT-1120 that eventually became CBL); in 1931 with a CPRY (the CP Railroad station); then before that they shared 960 with CNRX, then 840 with 7 other stations (?!) then in 1927 which seems to be their first year on the air, they shared 1030 with CJBC and three other stations.

CJBC, as you say, ended up on 860 after swapping 1010 with CFRB sometime around 1949. Their call changed from CBY sometime during the war, and it looks like NARBA opened up the 1010 channel for them - they were on graveyard channel 1420 before the war. There seems to have been a brief period on 960 in the late 1930s, but before that they were still on 1420 as CRCY. Apparently purchased from commercial owners in 1936 when they changed calls from CKNC. CKNC was before that on 1030, then before that on 960, then before that sharing 580 with CFCL and CKCL, the station that is today CJCL-590, and before that sharing 840 with seven other stations including CNRT.

Gets a bit confusing north of the border.....

 

[DanStrassberg]

The other Class C you're thinking of is indeed in Stockton, KWG.

I cheated & looked 'em up in the database:

There are six Class C's with 3-letter calls: KFH, KGY, KOY, KWG, KXO, and WOL.

We've already named all three Class D's with 3-letter calls. (WDZ, WEW, WHA) (I do see a CP for 10,000/200 DA-2 for WEW. Doesn't look like that's going to be enough to lift WEW from Class D status though.)

I'd wager that WEW limited its application for night service to 200W expressly to avoid the hassles and not inconsiderable cost of becoming a Class B. I suspect that on 770, 200W will cover a lot of the market surprisingly well, and I believe it requires only two towers. The 10 kW D setup, which protects WBBM, uses two towers also but not the same pair as will be used at night. One tower is shared.

As for the three-letter Class Cs, we have Wichita, Olympia, Phoenix, Stockton, el Centro (also in the Central Valley) and DC; I'm pretty sure that KOY was on 550 for many decades and that the calls only moved to the Class C within the past few years. And while WOL has been on 1450 for ages, it wasn't always. Those calls were on 1260 in DC for an extended period (40 and 50s, I believe)

There are four 3-letter calls on FM stations: KDB, KSD, KUT, and WRR. ("WJZ-FM" is formally a five-letter call)
There are three 3-letter calls on TV stations: KGW, WIS, WJW. ("WHA-TV", again, is formally a five-letter call)

Santa Barabara, St Louis, Austin, and Dallas for the FMs, right?
And Portland (OR) Columbia (SC) and Cleveland for the TVs, right?

Supposedly when WLW was running 500kw, a few months after they started they were ordered to install a second tower, creating a DA, to limit their radiation towards CFRB to what it would be if WLW were just 50kw. I might guess that even with the DA and WLW running only 50k the interference might still have been an issue.

That was in the very early days of MW DAs. The WLW 500 kW DA used THREE towers in a triangular configuration and the pattern was not very sharply nulled at all. One of the towers in the DA was the famous Blaw-Knox diamond that still stands and is still used as WLW's main tower. The other two were shorter and I believe that one of those survived for many decades, but I've been told that the WLW auxilary tower is not either of the short towers from the 500 kW DA.

As for the CBL/CJBC/CFRB history, wow! A lot more complicated than I can get my arms around. Thanks!

 

[qtpieislit]

Radio-locator.com lists WEW as 1Kw daytime only. When did they go full time?

 

[Starbucks]

When I drove out west from Philly.....I picked up WCAU (WPHT) as far as Northeast Oklahoma and lost it once I roughly passed Bartlesville area. As you continue there is a station in the western panhandle of Oklahoma that is licensed on 1210. So obviously you will lose it. KYW still can be picked up in Northern Ontario and as far down south as Miami area. As far west....I lost it by passing Chicago area or about Mid-way into Illinois. WPHT has the best all around as far as 4 direction distance....because it's omni directional.
As far as the rest of AM philly nightime......I think once you passed Pottstown....it's all over.

 

[DanStrassberg]

Radio-locator.com lists WEW as 1Kw daytime only. When did they go full time?

The CP was granted but I don't recall just when--probably within the last year. I doubt whether it has been built out yet and I have no clue about whether construction has started. My guess is not yet.

 

[w9wi]

I'd wager that WEW limited its application for night service to 200W expressly to avoid the hassles and not inconsiderable cost of becoming a Class B. I suspect that on 770, 200W will cover a lot of the market surprisingly well, and I believe it requires only two towers. The 10 kW D setup, which protects WBBM, uses two towers also but not the same pair as will be used at night. One tower is shared.

With the disclaimer that my professional association is in TV, not AM, I guess I'm wondering what the incremental cost is in going from a 200-watt Class D to a Class B? Obviously there is the (trivial, IMHO) increase in utility costs for the extra 50 watts. (depending on the efficiency of the antenna system) And the antenna pattern would have to be a bit tighter to maintain the same protection to WABC/WBBM/whoever else.

I suppose the largest cost would be in having to change the city-of-license, presuming the night pattern is not able to maintain principal-community coverage of St. Louis. Of course nighttime principal community coverage is not an issue for Class D stations.

As for the three-letter Class Cs, we have Wichita, Olympia, Phoenix, Stockton, el Centro (also in the Central Valley) and DC; I'm pretty sure that KOY was on 550 for many decades and that the calls only moved to the Class C within the past few years. And while WOL has been on 1450 for ages, it wasn't always. Those calls were on 1260 in DC for an extended period (40 and 50s, I believe)

Yep. The KFH calls (Wichita) haven't been on 1240 for very long either - they were traditionally on 1330 and I *think* were off AM altogether for a few years. (they were on a suburban-licensed FM)

WOL appears on the graveyard channel of 1310 (now 1340) through 1937. They were on 1230 (now 1260) when NARBA went into effect but were on their current frequency by 1951. So it looks like they had a bit more than ten years on the regional channel.

There are four 3-letter calls on FM stations: KDB, KSD, KUT, and WRR. ("WJZ-FM" is formally a five-letter call)
There are three 3-letter calls on TV stations: KGW, WIS, WJW. ("WHA-TV", again, is formally a five-letter call)
Santa Barabara, St Louis, Austin, and Dallas for the FMs, right?
And Portland (OR) Columbia (SC) and Cleveland for the TVs, right?

Correct on all seven accounts.

That was in the very early days of MW DAs. The WLW 500 kW DA used THREE towers in a triangular configuration and the pattern was not very sharply nulled at all. One of the towers in the DA was the famous Blaw-Knox diamond that still stands and is still used as WLW's main tower. The other two were shorter and I believe that one of those survived for many decades, but I've been told that the WLW auxilary tower is not either of the short towers from the 500 kW DA.

Hadn't heard about *three* towers in that DA! It was really mentioned largely just in passing.

It really didn't have to be very sharply nulled as, as I understand it, it only had to limit WLW's radiation in the direction of Toronto to what it would be if WLW were 50kw non-DA. (i.e., only 10dB of null was required) That's pretty shallow compared to most modern DAs.

If I recall properly, there still is a second tower on the property, maintained as a backup. Don't know how long it's been there though, it may not date back to the 30s.

As for the CBL/CJBC/CFRB history, wow! A lot more complicated than I can get my arms around. Thanks!

Really you need to thank David for posting those scans which made it possible to read all that!

Things were done a LOT differently north of the border back then. Especially in the earliest days of the 1920s when they might licence four or five or seven or eight stations to one modest-sized city -- but put them all on the same frequency...

 

[DG02816]

Wow, some interesting history there! The 1210 in OK is KGYN, Guymon.
Believe they run 10 kW.

 

[DanStrassberg]

Wow, some interesting history there! The 1210 in OK is KGYN, Guymon.
Believe they run 10 kW.

I believe that is correct. But if some large group owner (I forget which one) had gotten its way, through a very large group of moves and swaps, 1210 in OK would now be 50 kW in Tulsa. Somewhere on the Internet, all of the machinations of this upgrade must be recorded. IIRC, the activity reached its peak two or three years ago and the KGYN move briefly appeared to be a done deal. I suspect that some vestiges (CoL and facilities changes by smaller stations) actually made it onto the air and live on as memorials to the failed plan. And I don't recall which element(s) of this grand plan became the straw(s) that broke the camel's back. But for whatever reason, the KGYN upgrade, which was what motivated the whole deal, came a-cropper. An interesting chapter in broadcast history.

 

[rtetro]

KYW still can be picked up in Northern Ontario and as far down south as Miami area. As far west....I lost it by passing Chicago area or about Mid-way into Illinois.

When I was living in Tri-Cities TN-VA, KYW blasted in at night at least as well, if not better than many 50kw stations in NYC or Philly. That KYW null toward Mexico is not nearly as severe as the null towards NYC. Looking back on other places I've live, I also recall receiving KYW occasionally in Colorado Springs, and it was a regular in Indianapolis at night. Of course, the best east coast signal I would receive at night in any of those locations was WBZ in Boston, with those half-wave towers and a pattern that blows the signal west.

 

[DanStrassberg]

Of course, the best east coast signal I would receive at night in any of those locations was WBZ in Boston, with those half-wave towers and a pattern that blows the signal west.

And don't forget the Tx location in Hull. MA. Hull is on a spit of land that juts into Boston Harbor. The salt water path for six or seven miles in almost all directions (thousands of miles to the east--but that doesn't help in North America) REALLY helps to launch the low-angle skywave that gets all of that distance. Of course the FCC formulas for calculating coverage don't take any of that into account, so there are two 1030 Class Bs in TN and a 1030 Class D just 50 or so miles west of Chicago. Also, KTWO, the ex-Class IIA on 1030, is the only such station (but see the next sentence) that uses only two towers to protect the co-channel ex-Class IA. All of the others use at least three towers except for KKOB, which, like KTWO, also uses two towers but is kind of a special case because of its long history of operating on 770 under STA.