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questions and comments on 1360 format change

i am a listener with a slight connection to the broadcasting business (had a 3rd class radio telephone license with broadcast endorsement in the late 70's and worked the board in small markets during high school / college). I liked the local programming on 1360....the syndicated stuff was crap, but the morning show was OK, pugs and kelly were good, and dick hunter is better. hifi club was also a treat. not the smoothest operation in the world, not the slickest, but it had a local feel and was different than the pack.

so how could that format not pay the light bill ?

i kind of expected it to go under when the "home shopping show" or whatever it was called got started. my guess is they traded spots for those coupons, and then kept the cash....which makes maybe $100 a show ? they should have gone all the way with the sponsored obituaries, and high school sports. but wait, small time AM's can make a living doing that...what is wrong with DFW.

how does the biz radio network make a go ? they have to have a tiny audience. is it better sales or lower talent cost ?

thanks for any insight...


budman
 
Stations sell one of 2 things- ratings or results. If you've got ratings, you sell ratings, if you don't you sell how many people you'll get to order the clients product, eat at their resturant, etc.

The problem being that any company with enough money to pay for any decent amount of advertising also has many more options than a station that could barely get a .1 in the ratings.

So why would I drive past dozens (if not hundreds) of other Mexican resturants to get to the one in Mesquite advertising on 1360? That's right, I wouldn't, you wouldn't, and most people won't. You're more likely to go to one of the sit-down chains (Don pablos, Mercado Juarez, etc) a fast food mex (Bell, Bueno, Cabana, etc) , or their local mom-and-pop Mexican place (there's one on every block, in some neighborhoods 5 on every block)

The chains are going to have an agency, do TV or big time radio, most local places are smart enough to advertise locally (Plano newspaper, cable ads, etc). It's onlythe suckers who ended up paying to advertise to an audience unlikelyto visit their resturants.

And there's just not that many suckers out there anymore. You can go to stations in the 20's and 30's in the ratings and get deals on advertising. WHy drop all the way to station number 45 unless you just LOVE the format? And that's what killed them. It's having an audience, and being able to sell that audience. They didn't have an audience to speak of and couldn't monetize what they had...
 
budman1 said:
hifi club was also a treat.
Thank you!

I dunno...AM skews so much older these days (average age 56) and it's a tough sell to get younger listeners to go from surround sound down to AM scratchiness and, gasp, MONO. The station also treaded on forbidden waters, since "we Texans" seem to require only ultra-conservative talk that tells us exactly what to think, and anything outside of the conservative viewpoint these days comes off as unfocused and a "catch-all" for any other non-conservative opinion. Using the term "progressive" instead of "liberal" was a good idea, but it just didn't spell ratings success. Even KSKY, who programs conservative talk, has made absolutely no inroads on WBAP after nearly 6 years. And KRLD, bless its 80+ year old heart, has suffered greatly since the 90s with their pseudo-"lifestyle talk." At Rational, add all of that to no strong marketing effort (sorry Dave) and you've got a station that got lost in the fray. But in Dave's defense, leasing time is not a cheap proposition, and even the best-lined pockets can't always afford to compete with the big boys, and especially when you're trying your damndest to first SELL the format idea onto an unorganized, varied group of listeners. That's different than just trying to randomly attract listeners. 910 struggled, too, with progressive talk, and they were all automated...at least Rational understood the "outdated" term, "live-and-local." Me, I think taking a page out of the Limbaugh playbook is not the way to bring the non-conservatives together...and that's what Rational was getting with the syndie programming from Air America and NovaM--loudmouths who were just as vile about THEIR opinion as Rush is about his. Progressives are softer-hearted by nature, and maybe a day full of shows like Ron Reagan's would have been less offensive and more palatable to such an audience. But there's no shock value to a Ron Reagan, and sometimes a show like that gets tedious and boring. I still think that, if programmed and sold properly, a politically-moderate station might have some level of success.

I don't know.

But Rational took a turn away from politics and into more of that "lifestyle" programming when Pugs and Kelly and Dick Hunter became available. And it did work to some degree...some of the disenfranchised, ex-KLLI listeners gravitated over to 1360, and the station actually showed up in the mainstream ratings for the first time since 1976 when the station was still the former FW powerhouse, KXOL. But hitting #50 is nothing you can take to potential advertisers, and I'm sure Rational was never able to get the rates they wanted to charge. And P&K's and BDH's presence changed the focus of the station. I'm betting that drove away some of the original, progressive audience there, but hey, there's bills to pay, and the other benefit to P&K/BDH is that you'll get the station NOTICED.

As for BizRadio, their #1 target is affluent males, any age (but assuming that it's going to skew older.) They go to potential advertisers and tell them that the target audience for the station is not going to show up in any ratings book, but THIS is the place to hit those affluent folks. To some degree, it works. And the underlying idea of the whole operation is to drive business over to owner Dan Frishberg's financial services/investment company...which makes the entire schedule into one big infomercial. So the entire business model there defies conventional radio wisdom.
 
thanks for the info.

i have come to hate wbap. self declared experts patting themselves on the back on hundreds of stations. with the exception of mark davis, whom i enjoy.

the noon show on kera is good, and it was good when glen mitchel was hosting it.

when a local station put's on programming from a national syndicator, do they pay cash, get cash, or have to run spots to pay for it ?

--bud
 
budman1 said:
when a local station put's on programming from a national syndicator, do they pay cash, get cash, or have to run spots to pay for it ?

--bud
Totally depends on the syndicator, the station, and what kind of deal they can work out.

For the most part, in major markets, the syndicator is happy to be clearing programming, and is willing to just have the X number of spots per hour on the air in a major market. (So they can go to Advertiser and say something like: "we're on in 19 of the top 20 markets,100 markets total, and can run your spots at a lower rate than if you were to go try and buy time on those 19 different stations, etc etc" .

That's why if you ever see syndicated commercial logs, there's a lot of Johnson and Johnson, Proctor and Gamble, Gold Bond powder, Sears and the like- products or stores that are nation wide, in every store, etc.


The hour (or more) block programming that you hear on KRLD, KLIF< WBAP, etc are paid for- the mortage hour, the vitamin hour, the car guy hour,.

And I know of at least a couple of shows/features that require a minute per day of commercial time as 'payment'. There's a couple of the prep services that have the same structure- they'll give you the info, show prep material, etc, and in payment they get one spot that runs every day (which they can then sell to their clients and make money that way)
 
MikeShannon914 said:
I dunno...AM skews so much older these days (average age 56) and it's a tough sell to get younger listeners to go from surround sound down to AM scratchiness and, gasp, MONO. The station also treaded on forbidden waters, since "we Texans" seem to require only ultra-conservative talk that tells us exactly what to think, and anything outside of the conservative viewpoint these days comes off as unfocused and a "catch-all" for any other non-conservative opinion. Using the term "progressive" instead of "liberal" was a good idea, but it just didn't spell ratings success.

Even the northeast newspapers and magazines have admitted in articles in recent months that the stereotype of Texas being "ultra-conservative" is overdone. The fact that Houston is the largest city in the country with an openly gay mayor and that the majority of elected folks in the largest counties in the state -- Dallas, Harris, Bexar, Travis -- are Democrats would seem to make it obvious that not everyone in Texas is an ultra-conservative.

If the reason progressive talk radio fails in a market is because the people there won't stand for anything non-conservative, why does progressive talk not work in almost every market it is in -- including places like Los Angeles -- and not just Dallas?

910 struggled, too, with progressive talk, and they were all automated...at least Rational understood the "outdated" term, "live-and-local." Me, I think taking a page out of the Limbaugh playbook is not the way to bring the non-conservatives together...and that's what Rational was getting with the syndie programming from Air America and NovaM--loudmouths who were just as vile about THEIR opinion as Rush is about his. Progressives are softer-hearted by nature, and maybe a day full of shows like Ron Reagan's would have been less offensive and more palatable to such an audience. But there's no shock value to a Ron Reagan, and sometimes a show like that gets tedious and boring. I still think that, if programmed and sold properly, a politically-moderate station might have some level of success.

The irony is KXEB had far more listeners than Rational ever had.

The old KXEB 910 was getting about a half a share in the overall ratings before it was sold and format changed from the Air America line-up. KMNY got a 0.1 twice and not enough to register in any other month. Considering KXEB had a weaker signal and covered less of the population than KMNY did, it was far more successful than Rational was. (KXEB's ratings were similar to what KTLK Los Angeles gets now...and KTLK's transmitter is located in Los Angeles, not rim-shotting).

But Rational took a turn away from politics and into more of that "lifestyle" programming when Pugs and Kelly and Dick Hunter became available. And it did work to some degree...some of the disenfranchised, ex-KLLI listeners gravitated over to 1360, and the station actually showed up in the mainstream ratings for the first time since 1976 when the station was still the former FW powerhouse, KXOL. But hitting #50 is nothing you can take to potential advertisers, and I'm sure Rational was never able to get the rates they wanted to charge. And P&K's and BDH's presence changed the focus of the station. I'm betting that drove away some of the original, progressive audience there, but hey, there's bills to pay, and the other benefit to P&K/BDH is that you'll get the station NOTICED.

KMNY didn't show up in the ratings in the latest PPMs.

If the feelings in your post are shared by the folks that run Rational Radio, they are just as bad as the corporate owners: it couldn't be what they put on the air, it must be the audience at fault (in this case, stereotype everyone in Texas is a backwoods conservative). Since Air America/KXEB had listeners and the difference between that progressive talk station and KMNY is the line-up, perhaps the issue was Rational's line-up?
 
txchipk said:
MikeShannon914 said:
I dunno...AM skews so much older these days (average age 56) and it's a tough sell to get younger listeners to go from surround sound down to AM scratchiness and, gasp, MONO. The station also treaded on forbidden waters, since "we Texans" seem to require only ultra-conservative talk that tells us exactly what to think, and anything outside of the conservative viewpoint these days comes off as unfocused and a "catch-all" for any other non-conservative opinion. Using the term "progressive" instead of "liberal" was a good idea, but it just didn't spell ratings success.

Even the northeast newspapers and magazines have admitted in articles in recent months that the stereotype of Texas being "ultra-conservative" is overdone. The fact that Houston is the largest city in the country with an openly gay mayor and that the majority of elected folks in the largest counties in the state -- Dallas, Harris, Bexar, Travis -- are Democrats would seem to make it obvious that not everyone in Texas is an ultra-conservative.

If the reason progressive talk radio fails in a market is because the people there won't stand for anything non-conservative, why does progressive talk not work in almost every market it is in -- including places like Los Angeles -- and not just Dallas?

910 struggled, too, with progressive talk, and they were all automated...at least Rational understood the "outdated" term, "live-and-local." Me, I think taking a page out of the Limbaugh playbook is not the way to bring the non-conservatives together...and that's what Rational was getting with the syndie programming from Air America and NovaM--loudmouths who were just as vile about THEIR opinion as Rush is about his. Progressives are softer-hearted by nature, and maybe a day full of shows like Ron Reagan's would have been less offensive and more palatable to such an audience. But there's no shock value to a Ron Reagan, and sometimes a show like that gets tedious and boring. I still think that, if programmed and sold properly, a politically-moderate station might have some level of success.

The irony is KXEB had far more listeners than Rational ever had.

The old KXEB 910 was getting about a half a share in the overall ratings before it was sold and format changed from the Air America line-up. KMNY got a 0.1 twice and not enough to register in any other month. Considering KXEB had a weaker signal and covered less of the population than KMNY did, it was far more successful than Rational was. (KXEB's ratings were similar to what KTLK Los Angeles gets now...and KTLK's transmitter is located in Los Angeles, not rim-shotting).

But Rational took a turn away from politics and into more of that "lifestyle" programming when Pugs and Kelly and Dick Hunter became available. And it did work to some degree...some of the disenfranchised, ex-KLLI listeners gravitated over to 1360, and the station actually showed up in the mainstream ratings for the first time since 1976 when the station was still the former FW powerhouse, KXOL. But hitting #50 is nothing you can take to potential advertisers, and I'm sure Rational was never able to get the rates they wanted to charge. And P&K's and BDH's presence changed the focus of the station. I'm betting that drove away some of the original, progressive audience there, but hey, there's bills to pay, and the other benefit to P&K/BDH is that you'll get the station NOTICED.

KMNY didn't show up in the ratings in the latest PPMs.

If the feelings in your post are shared by the folks that run Rational Radio, they are just as bad as the corporate owners: it couldn't be what they put on the air, it must be the audience at fault (in this case, stereotype everyone in Texas is a backwoods conservative). Since Air America/KXEB had listeners and the difference between that progressive talk station and KMNY is the line-up, perhaps the issue was Rational's line-up?

The reason is MOSTLY that its on AM. Most dont want to listen to AM, the buzzing, the scratching, the strange squeals, the drive time signal cutbacks at 530pm for gosh sakes...its antiquated...id listen to rational on FM. I listened to it on AM on the weekend if KERA was boring me, but you have to advertise it, you can{t just wait for people to stumble onto it...i seldom listen to am except for krld for news (at least i used to get news there). AM is just intolerable. Its time to end it and create an extended FM (HD only) band. Give all AMs a new FM HD freq and give them several years to phase out AM altogether by simulcasting on FM. (#2 restore ownership rules that restore local ownership over time)
 
dfwrunner said:
The reason is MOSTLY that its on AM. Most dont want to listen to AM, the buzzing, the scratching, the strange squeals, the drive time signal cutbacks at 530pm for gosh sakes...its antiquated...id listen to rational on FM. I listened to it on AM on the weekend if KERA was boring me, but you have to advertise it, you can{t just wait for people to stumble onto it...i seldom listen to am except for krld for news (at least i used to get news there). AM is just intolerable. Its time to end it and create an extended FM (HD only) band. Give all AMs a new FM HD freq and give them several years to phase out AM altogether by simulcasting on FM. (#2 restore ownership rules that restore local ownership over time)

Now Now AM isnt that bad at all. In fact some AM stations can sound just as good as any FM MONO Station. The problem is that, yes it suffers interference from EVERYTHING!
Now that statement about AM being the ruin of their ratings is just not true. Look at the Ticket and WBAP! They're both on AM and doing quite well.
The problem with 1360 is that for whatever reason, despite being 50 kW their signal sucks!
hell KGVL 1400 being a graveyard 1 kw Station comes in better and sounds better!
1360 is in desperate need of fixing up or something. Their Night Signal is probably also what killed it for Rational.

also FM HD? really? Now FM HD is O.K and thats about it. The signal is significantly worse than Analog FM. If anything the best thing for am's if they were to go to fm would be an FM Mono signal. as FM mono goes farther than any other form of FM.
 
LibertyNT said:
Now Now AM isnt that bad at all. In fact some AM stations can sound just as good as any FM MONO Station. The problem is that, yes it suffers interference from EVERYTHING!
Now that statement about AM being the ruin of their ratings is just not true. Look at the Ticket and WBAP! They're both on AM and doing quite well.
The problem with 1360 is that for whatever reason, despite being 50 kW their signal sucks!
hell KGVL 1400 being a graveyard 1 kw Station comes in better and sounds better!
1360 is in desperate need of fixing up or something. Their Night Signal is probably also what killed it for Rational.

I agree, AM can sound great on a analog wideband tuner, but today's digital tuners chop the frequency down to a telephone range. Then add all the RF interference from computers, florescent lights etc.. it's the reason its doomed.

And besides that 1360 has a mediocre signal, it's sound quality hasn't been great. Real tinny, flat with no punch.

Again I dont know why people are spending big money on AM stations. Maybe they are praying that HD radios will catch on, or the FCC will eventually turn their AM licenses into FM golden tickets.
 
little1 said:
Stations sell one of 2 things- ratings or results. If you've got ratings, you sell ratings, if you don't you sell how many people you'll get to order the clients product, eat at their resturant, etc.

So why would I drive past dozens (if not hundreds) of other Mexican resturants to get to the one in Mesquite advertising on 1360? That's right, I wouldn't, you wouldn't, and most people won't. You're more likely to go to one of the sit-down chains (Don Pablos, Mercado Juarez, etc) a fast food mex (Bell, Bueno, Cabana, etc) , or their local mom-and-pop Mexican place (there's one on every block, in some neighborhoods 5 on every block)

The chains are going to have an agency, do TV or big time radio, most local places are smart enough to advertise locally (Plano newspaper, cable ads, etc). It's only the suckers who ended up paying to advertise to an audience unlikelyto visit their restaurants.

little1, I would recommend Mi Pueblo http://www.mipueblorestaurants.com/ for great local Mexican food at very reasonable prices. They have several outlets, my favorite being the location near the "Bermuda Triangle" at 8010 Bedford Euless Road in Richland Hills. I rate their food best, with Taco Cabana second.
 
txchipk said:
Even the northeast newspapers and magazines have admitted in articles in recent months that the stereotype of Texas being "ultra-conservative" is overdone. The fact that Houston is the largest city in the country with an openly gay mayor and that the majority of elected folks in the largest counties in the state -- Dallas, Harris, Bexar, Travis -- are Democrats would seem to make it obvious that not everyone in Texas is an ultra-conservative.

If the reason progressive talk radio fails in a market is because the people there won't stand for anything non-conservative, why does progressive talk not work in almost every market it is in -- including places like Los Angeles -- and not just Dallas?


The reason liberal talk radio doesn't work is that there is no market for it. The liberal viewpoint is well represented in most newscasts, movies, tv shows, and pop culture in general. That's not the case for conservatives. Talk radio fills the void. I'd also add that most liberal talk radio that I've run acorss is poorly done. They are more concerned with "being liberal" than being entertaining or interesting.
 
tested said:
The reason liberal talk radio doesn't work is that there is no market for it. The liberal viewpoint is well represented in most newscasts, movies, tv shows, and pop culture in general. That's not the case for conservatives. Talk radio fills the void. I'd also add that most liberal talk radio that I've run acorss is poorly done. They are more concerned with "being liberal" than being entertaining or interesting.

The reason liberal talk hasn't worked is as has been stated before. Liberals want to hear reasoned debate of both sides of an argument, not someone preaching to the choir four hours at a stretch. There is a market for such "liberal" programming, and until commercial broadcasting stops trying to ape the conservative outlets that market will continue to be dominated by NPR.

The far right are more interested in proselytizing than discussion. Hence, programs like Limbaugh, Beck and Hannity are entertaining to them; not so much to someone interested in being fully informed on the issues. The so-called MSM, for all their faults, at least make the effort to present both sides and so will always be accused of being liberal by hard care conservatives.
 
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