• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Quinn and Rose contract dispute?

First of the Philadelphia analogy is one of apples and oranges. Rush and Hannity are now on WPHT, which is essentially like going to KDKA here. I'm not sure that it isn't a good trade to go from a 38,000 Watt FM station to a 50,000 AM station that is nationally known and is the new conservative talker in town with a lineup that includes, among others, Dick Morris.

Second, I don't know what the ratings of the former WWIQ (the station that essentially served as Philadelphia's conservative talker) were, but ratings were not why the conservative shows left and the station changed format. The station was sold to a group that programs religious stations and was owned by Merlin Media.

According to this article: http://www.chicagobusiness.com/arti.../merlin-media-may-shed-assets-after-missteps#, Merlin Media was looking to sell some of their assets because of a failed news station in Chicago.

As for the studies you're quoting anonymously ("Studies show"- I feel like I'm posting with Arthur Dietrich), to believe them requires me to believe that Generation Y will be the first generation in the history of society to not grow more conservative as they grow older.

Is Generation Y any more or less liberal than the Baby Boomers of the 1960s? Yet they voted in Reagan once they hit 35.

To make the comparison of swing and big band music to conservative talk is simply not accurate- if anything I would state a comparison of modern rock becoming big band might be more accurate (something I absolutely hate to say).

And if the arguement you make is solely on numbers, one wonders how WAMO has been around for so long in a market that is eight percent black.

But just as not all of WAMO's listenership is black, not all of conservative talk's listenership is white male.

But even if it were, 72 percent of the US population was listed as white according to the 2010 Census. If there aren't going to be enough white males to keep conservative talk going- then what demographics have enough population to support ANY radio format?

Again, if Clear Channel decides to scrap 104.7, it will be a disaster.
 
It's about revenue. More and more advertisers, particularly big national ones, won't touch the format anymore.

The audience is increasingly 55+. While DVE and 3WS also have aging listeners, their 25-54 numbers are better than 104.7s.

104.7 has the one of the lowest cume numbers on the FM dial. Basically a relatively small number of people listen for a long time. An advertiser does not reach very many new ears via the format.

I heard this week that CC will make a final decision after the first of the year, and it sounds like there is a pretty reasonable chance that they will pull the plug.
 
Part- I just want you to listen to what you have said.

You're talking about big national accounts and a single Pittsburgh radio station. Now, what big national accounts does any single radio station have- in any market?

And don't let Sandra Fluck fool you; Rush, Hannity, Savage et all have no problem getting sponsors, be they Lifelock or Soda Stream or whatever.

Furthermore, even if you wish to say "well, local sponsors don't want to touch them, either," this clearly doesn't add up from the Clear Channel standpoint. How could CC employ Mark Madden if that was the case?

CUME is always lower for talk stations than music stations. I attribute this to the fact the instant you hear a song you don't care for on a music station you're punching the tuner to find one you do. Talk listeners will listen longer, but that means they are a captive audience for advertisers.

Look, I know the rumors. But if 104.7 does change format, KDKA is going to be reaping the benefits and making a rise they otherwise wouldn't by picking up Rush and Co.

If they change 104.7 to a country format, Clear Channel is going to find their audience on the station is going to be less affluent than it was, they will find their numbers smaller, and they are going to find their competition strengthened.

So says Pratte4Life on Nov. 23, 2013. Etch it in stone.
 
I think the Philadelphia example is absolutely relevant. WWIQ's ratings with the top talk stars in the country were not stellar. Now WPGB appears to have done better in the ratings, but you're still dealing with a shrinking audience plus the revenue challenge mentioned. WWIQ - Merlin obviously thought this format would perform better in Philadelphia - and it didn't meet expectations, even on FM.

I have no ideological horse in this race, but I'm in the business of radio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority_minority#United_States_of_America

Now, when I take a look at those trends, and the formats available, the logical conclusion is that talk radio as we know it is only going to be in a more difficult position as the audience ages and the available younger audience becomes more diverse.

I would contend that the ideological battle within the GOP makes the point clearly that young adults are not getting more conservative, at least socially. GOP consultants and studies are constantly pointing out that the social issues have a narrowing base - which is the same demographic conservative talk radio targets. They're saying that if the party doesn't move leftward at least socially, they will LOSE Gen Y voters. I think talk radio is in the exact same position. Short of a major change in style and topics, they're set to lose Gen Y too.

WAMO isn't a very apt example because you're talking about a station that can dominate that 8 percent effectively. For a large group owner like Clear Channel, the goal is to maximize the mainstream audience on each property - WAMO can afford to be niche, WPGB has to appeal to the broadest possible number of people.

Country in many cases profiles as being the same audience as conservative talk - so I wouldn't assume flipping it to country would mean a huge loss of higher income listeners compared to what they program now. Country does fine in places like Boston with upper income adults. That stereotype hasn't been accurate in years.

Does KDKA really need the boost? Last period they rated 5.9 to WPGB's 3.6.

As to Madden, shows like that are highly local. I'm not sure they ping on the radar of controversial the way the national shows do. Plus, they're heavily dependent on local advertising. Pittsburg can support Madden just fine, but when you're in a full time talk format, there's a lot more network and national trends to be concerned with. I'm not saying Quinn & Rose didn't do decent local business, but the bulk of the product on 104.7 is national. If you're looking at the long term, CC might have decided it's not getting any better.
 
I talked last week to the programmer who put 104.7 on the air and hired Quinn (he's in another market now.)

His comment about 104.7 was "The cycle is over, they need to move on."

And why worry about big national advertisers? Because they are the easy money, and CC can put formats on that frequency that WILL get that money.
 
Last edited:
Did that programmer happen to mention "the cycle" he speaks of has the top rated shows in radio today? Or that the leader of this cycle has one of the top selling books out in the country- and said book caters to youth?

Guys, if Clear Channel does what you are talking about, all that's going to happen is the talk shows on 104.7 are going to go to KD; links to what the population demographics of the country in 2043 will be notwithstanding.

The day KDKA got rid of Rush was the day they quit being No. 1 (look it up). They bring back the top talk show host in the country, just as CBS did in Philly and they'll make a run at the top spot again.

Clear Channel, if they were to flip to country, will find that station to be one of three in the market. What is their niche going to be? Let's just say you cut into WDSY's audience. How much is that going to be? A point? They did this once 20 years ago with The Rebel and it was gone (despite heavy advertising) at the height of Garth Brooks' crossover popularity in something like a year.

Flip 104.7 to sports and I do think you could have a real war with The Fan. But I'm telling you all that is going to do is make KDKA a player again, because as sure as I'm writing this, that's where Limbaugh and at least one of his friends will go.

Meanwhile The Fan and 104.7 Sports club each other over the head while all the 104.7 listeners go to KDKA and they'll laugh all the way to the bank with more listeners and fewer talent costs.

The X then posts even worse numbers than before, all the youth advertisers go to Star and Kiss as Madden and Benz's advertisers go with them to 104.7 Sports.

I can't fathom how people can't figure this out! I can't fathom how some sort of population demographic projection for 2043 (!!!!!!!) is going to having any basis of how a radio station is going to program themselves in 2014, or even how such a projection for 30 years in the future could possibly be looked upon as concrete or relevant to 2014!

As far as the "ideological warfare in the GOP" goes, are you really going to tell me that if the same poll was taken in the 1960s you wouldn't find the exact same thing? Parties have internal battles. They will always have internal battles. There are internal battles within Democrat Party between, say, union types and social liberals.

I'll give you this. By 2043, I think Rush Limbaugh will not be on the air. He probably will have passed away by then.

But if he hasn't, I wouldn't be surprised if he's that generation's Paul Harvey.
 
Look, your point about KD losing Rush knocking them out of #1 is absolutely correct. But that was what, 10 years ago? The audience for that genre is not growing. 104.7 and the X are currently the two lowest rated commercial FMs in the market. You're right that talk gets low cume, but 104.7's is the lowest in the market, and their time spent listening is substantially less than KD's.

How much would a country station on 104.7 take from Y108? If it's a point or two, and that's enough to take Y108 out of the #1 rank, mission accomplished. That would be the station's #1 objective in this scenario. CC runs clusters so that some stations drive ratings and profit, others protect and dilute whether they make money or not.

The reason I brought up Rush going to 104.3 a while back is that he would still be on FM and not on CBS, a win-win for CC locally and the syndicator. But KD can make all the calls they want, CC owns Premiere and they will not give him back to a CBS station. Those days are over.

In the big picture I really think either 104.7 or the X ends up all sports, and as I said, I hear decision time is just a few weeks away. It will be interesting.
 
Part- I agree with you on the last paragraph. However, I would think that there would be a way for Rush and company to manuever such a move to KD. They aren't going to a spitkicker somewhere.

Add the most popular radio show in the country to a 5.9? Heck yes KD could become No. 1 again! Now, we can talk about demos, but frankly that would be the move that would get me to listen to the station again (haven't since they lost the Bucs and Rush) and I would lower the demos. I am but one listener, but I'm not the only one.

The idea of what you say, that CC isn't going to allow CBS to take Rush away, shows me that he IS viable in the first place, so why would they dismiss the format? I think there are as many dominos that would be tough to fall to make such a move- namely agreements they have with the syndicators- that it wouldn't work.


I'm just not sold that WDSY is the domino Clear Channel needs to have fall. To say they are the new No. 1 station in town; what about KDKA-FM? What about, gee, I don't know, WPGB about a year ago? I also don't think DSY would lose any listeners. You're telling me that generations of people who have listened to Jimmy Roach are suddenly going to move to 104.7 Country on a whim? Don't see that. They'd take away from the Frogs before WDSY.

I've thought about other things you say about the national advertisers. The national advertisers are fine. Look, there wasn't a bigger pariah in radio than Don Imus five years ago. Not only was he fired from MSNBC and the like, but American Express and P & G and a bunch of other big time national advertisers pulled out, never to return.

Somehow, he found sponsors and has returned. And it's like the hydra- for every sponsor Media Matters types say "Look! We've taken away from a conservative! Yay!" another one comes to replace him. If I'm a sponsor- I want No. 1. I don't want Lynn Cullen's webcast or the MacYipper blog.

We'll see. I know the signs are there. But you heard me. If Clear Channel blows up 104.7 for country it will be a disaster.

If they blow up 104.7 for sports they'll have blown up the wrong station. But I do wonder- would the Pens be able to make the switch of frequency if such a move were to occur? What about the Steelers?

It's gotten where we're at the "agree to disagree" point of the arguement, so let me take this to another direction.

What is your opinion on the Modern Rock format? I just saw Billboard's top ranked rock albums list. No. 1 was . . . THE BEATLES!

Do you see where my point that wealthy conservatives aren't going away but evidently the modern rock audience has is coming from?

Especially when said wealthy conservative station is pulling in a 3.6 and said modern rock is at 3.0?

You can tell me all you want to about demos; I like pocketbooks.

And as you've told me with your own daughters, Part, the rock demo ain't what it used to be.

If conservative talk isn't getting any new listeners, I suggest it is not so much the format but a cyclical phase. As I've said, there will always be conservatives and there will always be liberals.

Modern rock- not so sure.

What is this decade's Guns N Roses or even White Stripes? There isn't such a band.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, I think we've beaten the 104.7 horse to death. But a few other relevant comments...

The X's mission is to dominate 18-34 males. Kiss gets the 18-34 females for CC. I think Madden and the Pens are what prop up the station, and it would be dead if it was just modern rock. The Pirates' season threw a monkey wrench into that blueprint as listeners went to the Fan for baseball and stayed. Time will tell if hockey season sees a migration back to the X.

Clear Channel has a track record of tying things up to keep other competitors from getting them, even if that means the product in itself is very poor. They have Fox Sports parked on 540, not running at full power, selling zero spots through a side deal with Birach. But this way no legitimate competitor can get it. They are running just enough of ESPN on 970 to keep it tied up. They will find a way to keep Rush away from KDKA. And that doesn't prove he has value as much as it's their monopolistic mentality.

The problem with modern rock as a format is that it only appeals to a portion of the demo. I'm pretty much alone in this opinion, but I think that the genre needs to get back to the days of AOR where you heard a variety of styles... from the Grateful Dead, CSN and Joni Mitchell to the Allman Brothers and Skynyrd to Yes, Genesis and ELP to Peter Frampton to ZZ Top, Van Halen and Black Sabbath.

If you could find a way to play Mumford and Sons, Jack Johnson, Imagine Dragons, Pearl Jam, Linkin Park... the entire spectrum side-by-side, I think you might be able to broaden it out a bit. Plus not EVERY air personality needs to be a sarcastic party animal....

But what do I know?.....
 
Here's what I don't get about your theory on 104.3.

What power does CC have over Keymarket that they can program their stations?

Furthermore, what people are asking me to believe is that conservative talk (104.7) is no longer viable. So they will change the station to a country station and a country station (104.3) will change their format to conservative talk because the talent on the format is too viable to let a legitimate competitor (KDKA) get it.

WHAT?

I'm about ready to run off to the dog catcher because IT JUST DON'T ADD UP!!!!
 
Keymarket seems to be sort of an informal "side deal" partner with CC. As a for instance, Froggy and DVE will co-present things like the country shows at Ribfest every year, sometimes with people from both stations on stage together. One way that relationship would work is that if CC has a client that specifically wants to buy country, CC will encourage them to give the buy to Froggy so that CBS doesn't get it. Who knows what behind-the-scenes compensation may be involved....

So a side deal where Keymarket puts the political shows on an FM keeps the syndicators happy (versus 970) and keeps it away from CBS. A country station on 104.7 does better 18-34 than the talk shows (which have virtually zero impact in that area, and mostly listeners over 55). That combines with Kiss and the X to give CC a stranglehold on that demo, and brings Y108 out of the #1 ranking so that DVE slides back in. Again, who knows what behind-the-scenes compensation is involved...

So yes, as convoluted as that may sound, their logic is "we don't want it but we still don't want you to have it."
 
Last edited:
Somewhere mice have eaten 48 tons of cheese.

It still doesn't add up. With 104.3 as a country station and 104.7 as talk, WDSY is No. 1 (and has just landed here, no idea if they are going to be the new No. 1 in Pittsburgh radio longterm or not). So what we'll do is work some sort of backroom deal so that 104.3 will be talk and 104.7 will be country, and so then WDSY won't be number one any more.

HUH?

I'm telling you- somewhere there is a cat who has become suicidal because he doesn't want to eat mice anymore.
 
Last edited:
I'm also giving thought to this idea that CC will be able to keep their entites away from CBS. Pirates broadcasts made the jump, and the proof in your pudding about FOX on 540 doesn't really do it for me because there is a helluva a lot of difference between a third rate syndicated sports network that is just happy to be broadcast in the market and the most listened to radio programs in the country hosted by people ranked as some of the greatest radio professionals of all time.

Frankly, I don't know if the conservatives would stand pat for being moved to 104.3.

Disaster is being rumored. Disaster.
 
Clear Channel owns Limbaugh's syndicator. They don't own the Pirates.

104.7 is a better signal than 104.3. It doesn't need semi-simulcast stations from Steubenville and the Mon Valley, plus a translator on 105.5 to fill in the hole on 279 north of downtown the way 104.3 does. Yes, country would get better ratings on 104.7.

104.7 with Rush is in the position once eloquently communicated by Branch Rickey to Ralph Kiner... "we finished last with you, we can finish last without you."
 
To compare 104.7 to the 1952 Pirates is tremendously inaccurate. It's to compare Pam Anderson with Broom Hilda.

It also should be stated after Kiner was traded to the Cubs, the attendance at Forbes Field was halved and the team did nothing for five years.

Again, those who do not learn from history . . . . .
 
I am willing to put up money that if 104.7 were to switch, and I don't think they will but if they do, they will not do a 4.1 as 104.7 did, nor will they EVER be No. 1 as 104.7 was during the Presidential election.

I couldn't get 104.3 on my car radio the other day. Mark it down- no way are the talk shows going there.
 
As the article notes, CC is controlled by the bankers. I sincerely doubt they (the bankers, that is) care about anything but making money and getting their investment back (with interest).

The unceremonious firing of Quinn & Rose (who had the best ratings on the station) proves to me once and for all one thing: No matter how popular, important or essential you are, when financial cuts have to be made, you will be sacked. And absolutely no one is immune.

C.
 
Sparks' link to the Bloomberg story on CC's debt is the key to what's going on with Quinn & Rose. CC very likely looked at Quinn's age, 70 at last report. No matter how good he or his ratings may be, CC decided they didn't need a 70 year old host. And it will be a while before a competitor hires a 70 year old. This may be age discrimination, but it's fact, even in legacy markets like Pittsburgh. Countless companies do this and it happens to employees who are much younger, male and female. Those 52 to 58 are getting canned. Very likely, CC's debt load is the reason Darryl Parks caught a bullet in Cincy. More CC cuts are on the way. It won't be pretty. As the Bloomberg story notes, the debt load is crushing.
 
CC doesn't care how old Quinn is, they care how much money he makes. If he wanted to work for $300 a week, he'd still be on, at age 70.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom