• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

R&R Summit

Re: Unfair darts

The RadioFan wrote:
"The facts have been brought up in many ways."

I have not seen evidence of any FACTS. But I have read much assumption and conjecture.


"However, it seems you choose skirt around the issue with your own theories."

Exactly when did I skirt and what are my "theories"?


"The average Christian station states the obvious."

Which is?


"The average Christian station has a playlist containing either all Caucasian artists or all African-American artists. There are only a small few Christian stations without a color-code format."

Again, please site the specific stations that you know use this "color-code format".


"Again, Whatzthat gave some evidence as well when he attempted to promote Virtue and Yolonda Adam on Christian AC and his ideas were turned down."

whatzthat did not site evidence. whatzthat gave opinion and assumption based on a predetermined theory.


"Which side are you on, the right side or the wrong side?"

In general? Well, let's see... I am a Christian, so I suppose often times I'm on either one. That is why I need my Savior. As most (meaning all) human beings do.
<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Re: This all began from the R&R Summit

Look "E" - I am not the one looking at skin color. I don't think people do it deliberately but I do believe it happens. How else can you come to the conclusion that CCM radio is 95% white. It shouldn't be that way. Why are we not reaching all colors. I really don't want to hear the excuse of format. I have quoted the Kirk Franklin/Crystal Lewis song, I have given you the fact that I was in a position at one time to strongly "urge" songs for airplay based on releases to A/C and inspo. I recommended songs by Virtue, Yolanda Adams, Out of Eden, Mary Mary and more that were released to the appropriate formats of A/C & inspo formats. ( The Virtue songs sounded very much like ZOEgirl who has no problem landing on any format).
The only way any of these artists I mentioned were played at all were if their song sounded "white" (I hate to put it that way but it's true). Yolanda Adams and Donnie McClurken did a song together called "The Prayer". It was played on a few inspo stations. Their vocals sounded totally different than usual. You don't usually hear Donnie McClurken on A/C stations at all even though he had some beautiful songs, "We Fall Down" was a a redo that he did and "I Am". They fit on A/C or inspo and were also played on mainstream A/C secular stations.
Yolanda Adams had one big one on contempary Christian;"Fragile Heart" but she had many more that could have fit, "Open My heart", "I Think I Can Fly". Ce Ce Winans always shows up on CCM, she is the exception. Some of her music that shows up is very urban so the pieces don't fit. Stacie Orrico, the Katinas, older Anointed all have that pop urban sound and they had no trouble landing on A/C or inspo, so why not the ones I mentioned.

I actually do not see color so talking about this is difficult but it upsets me to see it happen. I have watched it for a long time. I notice the lack of it being played when I travel and listen to other stations. I prayed it would get better but I believe many are comfortable with the pegs they have put themselves in.

Have you even delved into this or do you want to believe that everything is rosey and we have nothing to overcome. I'm not condemning anyone, I have a sister that I gave a WOW Christmas CD that stated to me that she loved it except for "that black woman". I have no idea who turned her off but I gather my sister has a little problem inside that she hasn't come to terms with. She is older and came up in a different time. She is a very wonderful person but sometimes I hear labels come out of her mouth that make me cringe.

One of my best friends is a reporter on FOX News Network. He and I along with others have discussed this many times. I don't know how to distinguish his color with you without you getting offended although he has no problem bringing it up.

Are you on the air at a station currently? What do you play? Do you play any Kirk Franklin, Yolanda, Mary Mary, Out of Eden.

One last example; Kirk Franklin and Toby Mac were on an ERACE Tour and came to our area. ERACE is a race reconciliation ministry, I'm sure you know about that. They freaked when they found out that the promoter only gave the concert to the Gospel station, defeating the whole purpose of the tour. Toby was not happy, we were brought in at the last moment. Something is highly amiss. I don't think programmers or promoters even think about it. It's habit and it needs to change, and that goes for the other side of programming (Gospel) also. Thank you Martha Munizzi for putting a crack in that mold, but A/C doesn't play her even though she has music that would fit. We have played her.
 
Re: Unfair darts

>
> I have not seen evidence of any FACTS. But I have read much
> assumption and conjecture.
>
>
> "However, it seems you choose skirt around the issue with
> your own theories."
>
> Exactly when did I skirt and what are my "theories"?

You have been skirting around the issue on all you posts. You refuse to answer this simple question: Why CHR and Soft AC can have a non-color code playlist and not Christian AC?
>
>
> "The average Christian station states the obvious."
>
> Which is?
>
> Which is the average Christian music station: Christian AC, Christian CHR and Urban Gospel.
> "The average Christian station has a playlist containing
> either all Caucasian artists or all African-American
> artists. There are only a small few Christian stations
> without a color-code format."
>
> Again, please site the specific stations that you know use
> this "color-code format".

Come on now. This is more than obvious. Do most Christian AC stations play any non-caucasian artist in heavy rotation. The answer is no. Do most Urban Gospel play any music from non-African-Amercian artists. The answer is no. Don't play games. This is obvious.
>
>
> "Again, Whatzthat gave some evidence as well when he
> attempted to promote Virtue and Yolonda Adam on Christian AC
> and his ideas were turned down."
>
> whatzthat did not site evidence. whatzthat gave opinion and
> assumption based on a predetermined theory.

This is something that whatzthat has experienced. How can this be theoretic. There are plenty more examples.
>
>
> "Which side are you on, the right side or the wrong side?"
>
> In general? Well, let's see... I am a Christian, so I
> suppose often times I'm on either one. That is why I need my
> Savior. As most (meaning all) human beings do.

Yes, only the Savior can correct the issues. However, He will not solve any issue if we don't confess, repent, and decide to follow His ways instead of remaining in our own comfort zone of self-righteousness and self-centeredness. If a fornicator is seeking help from the Savior, yet he continues to spend time with a harlot, the Savior will not automatically change the life of the fornicator if he doesn't have the desire to turn away from his sin. So, we need to have a heart that wants to change and follow the Savior instead continuing in our own willful ways. I don't see how the divisions that exists in the Christian circles and Christian radio is pleasing to the Savior. However, for some reason, it is okay with most Christians and this is a shame. This is why the division exists.
>
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by The RadioFan on 12/18/05 12:57 PM.</FONT></P>
 
Re: Topic

> "You seem to only want to skirt around the issue or you are
> simply blinded or asleep."
>
>
> I just as soon not use colors to define or describe human
> beings or the music they make.
>
> Any human being. From any nation, culture, or race. Defining
> a person by the color of their skin IS the division.
>
> So, call me blind, asleep or whatever you wish...but I'll
> stand on that statement. I always have and I always will.
>
> Elizabeth
>
It would be nice if that was true. However, it still does not answer the simple question that has been raised plenty of times. Why a Mary Mary, Virtue and Out of Eden song can not be heard on a Christian AC station while Zoegirl, Staci Orrico and Crystal Lewis can have the same distinct sound and receive a heavy rotation on these same stations? Why Crystal Lewis, who mentioned tha she wanted to appeal to all audiences, is not heard on Urban Gospel stations? That is all I am trying to figure out. If CHR and Soft AC can break the color-code programming, why can't Christian music radio. You have yet to answer this simple question. If it is because listener don't want to hear the variety or programmers simply refuse to break the barrier, then the problem is on the inside of the people.<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by The RadioFan on 12/18/05 12:08 PM.</FONT></P>
 
Re: Unfair darts

The RadioFan wrote:
"You have been skirting around the issue on all you posts. You refuse to answer this simple question: Why CHR and Soft AC can have a non-color code playlist and not Christian AC? "


That isn't skirting. Your statement assumes a "color-code". Show me evidence. Until you can specifically site a situation where you know your assumption is correct, it is theory, and I'm not going to join with you in perpetuating that theory.

The RadioFan wrote:
"There are only a small few Christian stations without a color-code format."

radioelizabeth wrote:
"Again, please site the specific stations that you know use this "color-code format".

The RadioFan wrote:
"Don't play games. This is obvious."

Apparently not. Again, site specifics.


The RadioFan wrote:
"This is something that whatzthat has experienced. How can this be theoretic. There are plenty more examples."

No. whatzthat experienced singles being turned down for airplay. I can list hundreds of singles that get turned down every day (all formats) and find common factors with them all. The theory is that the singles were rejected due to an artist's skin color. It is theory until it can be substantiated as fact.

No one seems to be able to do that.




<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Re: This all began from the R&R Summit

whatzthat wrote:
"I am not the one looking at skin color. I don't think people do it deliberately but I do believe it happens. How else can you come to the conclusion that CCM radio is 95% white. It shouldn't be that way. Why are we not reaching all colors."

How can you in one breath say skin color is not what you are looking at, and in the next call for a reach to all colors. Apparently, it is a deliberate result you are hoping for, but your desire is based on skin color.

"I really don't want to hear the excuse of format."

Ignore format and lose listeners. Radio will never be all things to all people. Even your best at work network isn't going to top the ratings with M 25+. (obviously). People have preferences. Real preferences. And people listen to their selected stations at different times for different reasons. Radio usage varies from person to person, and Christian radio is no exception to that.


"I have quoted the Kirk Franklin/Crystal Lewis song, I have given you the fact that I was in a position at one time to strongly "urge" songs for airplay based on releases to A/C and inspo. I recommended songs by Virtue, Yolanda Adams, Out of Eden, Mary Mary and more that were released to the appropriate formats of A/C & inspo formats. The only way any of these artists I mentioned were played at all were if their song sounded "white" (I hate to put it that way but it's true)."

True? Then please, add credibility to your claim and site the station that told you those artist would only be played if their song sounded, as you put it, "white".


"...so why not the ones I mentioned."

You know, I can't tell you why those specific songs were not chosen by stations. You seem to have come up with your own reasons. But again, no credible source has been given to substantiate the claim.




"I actually do not see color so talking about this is difficult but it upsets me to see it happen. I have watched it for a long time. I notice the lack of it being played when I travel and listen to other stations."

If you do not see it, you wouldn't notice it or the lack thereof.

Let me ask you a question. How many artists are you spinning right now with blond hair. Or how about the number of artists that are brunette? Just off the top of your head. You can include males, females, groups...whatever. Just come up with a number.

It is a silly stupid thought to do that. And if you are like most programmers, that thought never even enters your mind when you are listening to a song. Sure, you might take a look at the label's imaging of the artist...but have you ever spun or not spun a single based on the hair color of the artist?

Yet, this discussion poses the assumption that programmers do just that. That the color of a person's skin is playing a factor in programming.

That in order to "reach" out, programmers ought to increase or decrease the number of artists of a certain "skin color". That is absurd.

I have seen all sorts of separation rules when it comes to setting a rotation...and skin color has never been on any clock I've ever worked with. Nor should it be on anyone's criteria list for selecting a single to promote, spin, or purchase.


"Are you on the air at a station currently? What do you play? Do you play any Kirk Franklin, Yolanda, Mary Mary, Out of Eden."

I'm on lots of stations now and various formats. We play lots of different artists. I don't stop to count the races.

I have a question for you: Tell me what those four artists have in common that you would group them together in your question? Call me blind...but I'd like to believe it is more than the color of their skin...and if that is the only reason you listed those individuals together...then this discussion is over.

Elizabeth
<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Re: Topic

The RadioFan wrote:
"...Why a Mary Mary, Virtue and Out of Eden song can not be heard on a Christian AC station while Zoegirl, Staci Orrico and Crystal Lewis can have the same distinct sound and receive a heavy rotation on these same stations"


You would have to address that question with each specific station. If you can site one station that answers in accord with your assumptions, then we've got an issue (with that station). Until you can, it's theory, and nothing more.


<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Re: To the superior "E"

You are so judgemental. I preceive you are pretty difficult to deal with. You seem to know everyone's heart and pretty much about everything else.
You win, I am a racist because I notice black music isn't being played, if caring about it makes me a racist then I will accept that "you think that". I know my heart amd anyone else that knows me will rebuke your opinions. These remarks of yours as you would put are "offensive and personal" to me. You always seem to come down from a discussion and slam someone or try to make them feel ignorant about a subject. You must love control.
You go head and continue to hide behind your pure assumptions and ignorance.
I really don't care to have any more of your darts thrown my way.
By the way you don't even know what color I am.
 
Re: From e

whatzthat wrote:
"You are so judgemental. I preceive you are pretty difficult to deal with. You seem to know everyone's heart and pretty much about everything else. You win, I am a racist because I notice black music isn't being played, if caring about it makes me a racist then I will accept that "you think that". I know my heart amd anyone else that knows me will rebuke your opinions. These remarks of yours as you would put are "offensive and personal" to me. You always seem to come down from a discussion and slam someone or try to make them feel ignorant about a subject. You must love control. You go head and continue to hide behind your pure assumptions and ignorance. I really don't care to have any more of your darts thrown my way. By the way you don't even know what color I am."


Maybe it is judgemental to balance the scales. Maybe it is difficult when assumptions are challenged. Maybe it is ignorance to pose an issue based on presumed theories and never substantiate them with any real evidence. Maybe it is control to not allow oneself to go "there".

I have challenged claims that have no credibility. Not one station has been sited, yet the entire industry has been accused. Not one situation has been substantiated, yet the whole group has been blamed.

That isn't a slam, unless it levels the discussion from hype to reality.

And we are all ignorant. And no one is pure.

And only God knows the hearts of Man.

And in case you haven't figured it out by now, I don't care what "color" you are.

Elizabeth
<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Re: Topic

> How do you know they won't listen to the song if it isn't
> added? Listeners certainly listen to R&B, soul and motown on
> secular radio. Why are Christian radio programmers so bent
> on keeping divisions (and I'm referring to both Gospel and
> CCM). We of all people are to be the examples of acceptance,
> and don't give me the baloney about formats.


Your paradigm is soooo top-down! "Why don't programmers add...?" "Why don't we...?" "Shouldn't we...?" "We must..." "We are to be...."

Does it not occur to you that listeners might have desires that they have expressed that are being mirrored on our stations that actually ask them?

For what will you plea and argue next? Authors of books about marriage must write to singles, too! Authors of books about singleness must write to marrieds, too! Inner-city pastors must speak to their congregations about issues of life in the suburbs! Youth pastors must target seniors! Churches offering "First Place" weight loss programs must offer programs for anorexics! After all, we must be about unity and inclusiveness, right?

In reality, authors concentrate on narrow subjects, churches target their surroundings and then divide their congregations into life groups to better serve, and ministries are defined by the specific need that is addressed and met.

Don't criticize the successful AC's. If you want to find fault, find fault with the second and third inspos and teaching stations that just about every market has. Endorse "unity" amongst Christian radio stations; don't demand it from within a single one. Work for mergers and the implementation of cluster strategies; end the money-driven duplication of formats and the ego-driven ownership of stations. It is in that and the resulting greater number of "non-inclusive" offerings that you will find the opportunities you want.
 
Re: Last Word to "E"

whatzthat wrote:
"You don't balance the scales, you tilt them in your direction on each subject that is discussed."

It is doubtful that I am the only person who shares this view. So, no, it isn't "my" direction.

But, that is your opinion...and of course, you are entitled to it.

Elizabeth
<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Re: Topic corrected - I left a word out

"Does it not occur to you that listeners might have desires
> that they have expressed that are being mirrored on our
> stations that actually ask them?"

I'm sorry but I don't think I understand this sentence. If you mean that listeners are letting stations know what they want and it's getting played. Not true but you don't program your station according to what is requested by listeners, you can listen to your listeners by doing testing. You do your best to reach those you are targeting. You can focus your target so tightly though that you become boring.

The rest you wrote has no reference to the report that 95% of Christian Contemporary Radio is white which was reported by Radio and Records at their summit. This is not about authors, it's about radio. You blast me and then you swing to my direction at the end of your comments.
>
" Don't criticize the successful AC's."

I'm not criticizing sucessful A/C's. There is the slightest possibilty that A/C's could have a lot more success and in turn find themselves with higher ratings and happier listeners. Read my words; I'm not criticizing anyone, I'm talking about something that most in the industry realize is a problem. I never said it's a deliberate choice. As I said before I believe it is not a conscious act.

"If you want to find fault, find fault with the second and third inspos and
> teaching stations that just about every market has."

Why would I criticize the inspos that have teaching. There is a need for that. Everyone has the right to program as they please, teaching, music, whatever. Programming should be in the interest though of meeting the needs of the area the station is in.

"Endorse unity" amongst Christian radio stations; don't demand it
> from within a single one. Work for mergers and the
> implementation of cluster strategies; end the money-driven
> duplication of formats and the ego-driven ownership of
> stations. It is in that and the resulting greater number of
> "non-inclusive" offerings that you will find the
> opportunities you want."

You have actually attempted to say exactly what I desire. More creative programming,not duplication of formats. With that comes freedom but it isn't going to come if a problem is hidden. I don't know why you are yelling at me:). I'm not the one who thinks that the creative programming you mentioned is "trying to be everything to all listeners" and won't work. I believe in taking chances and being different.

I can see that you are passionate about what you wrote and I appreciate that.
>
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by whatzthat on 12/19/05 04:49 AM.</FONT></P>
 
Re: Topic

whatzthat wrote:
"I'm not criticizing sucessful A/C's."

But you have. You have made claims that A/C stations have deliberately passed on music based on skin color.

"...the report that 95% of Christian Contemporary Radio is white..."

That is not technically what the report said.


"I'm not criticizing anyone, I'm talking about something that most in the industry realize is a problem. I never said it's a deliberate choice. As I said before I believe it is not a conscious act."

Just site one station. One song. One PD who told you "color" was the factor. One situation where this "problem" is proven. One source that validates what you say "most in the industry" realize. Show how this is not just a blanket assumption, but instead is shown to be fact.



"Everyone has the right to program as they please, teaching, music, whatever."

Exactly.

<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Re: Unfair darts

> You refuse to answer this simple question: Why CHR and Soft
> AC can have a non-color code playlist and not Christian AC?


Easy -- the first two formats have music being created that appeals to their respective audiences and, thus, fits what they do while the latter does not. You'll also want to look at the eras when the targets of those formats came of age.

Before leaving this question, though, I must point out a few things. First, there is no such thing as a "color code playlist." Second, that is not even a term anybody in the industry uses; somebody here just made it up. Third, Christian radio does not have what you're calling a "Soft AC" format; in Christian radio, it's called "inspirational," it tends to be targeted 10-20 years older than "soft AC," and it's much softer than just about any "soft AC" you'll find these days. Put all these things together, and I have to (1) not accept the premise and assumptions of the question and (2) believe you're not even close to this field. That means you should be much more eager to listen and learn than to pontificate.



> Do most Christian AC stations play any non-caucasian artist
> in heavy rotation. The answer is no.


No, you're wrong. The answer is "yes!"

Nicole C Mullen has two of the strongest-testing and, thus, most-played songs of the format -- "Redeemer" and "Call On Jesus." Many stations also play her "I Am," Mary Mary's "Shackles," Tait's "How Great Thou Art" and "Lose This Life," and songs from Anointed, Out Of Eden, Anthony Evans, Ruben Studdard, Kirk Franklin, God's Property, George Rowe, and Bebe & Cece Winans.




> Yes, only the Savior can correct the issues. However, He
> will not solve any issue if we don't confess, repent, and
> decide to follow His ways instead of remaining in our own
> comfort zone of self-righteousness and self-centeredness.


Ha! LOL!!

Isn't it the height of self-righteousness and self-centeredness to assume that you could sit atop a little ol' radio station and implement a top-down solution to this "problem" you say exists!

Look -- this is just radio, and Christian AC stations play the music the listeners say is the music that speaks to them. There is not a problem unless and until the listeners say there is.

You remain in a top-down paradigm; we're bottom-up. You want to speak and force; we want to listen and serve.

You have no top-down solution because listening is a voluntary action and liking is a matter of personal preference. You cannot force either.

You cannot force people to like music...period.
 
Re: Topic

whatzthat wrote:
"So you are Neutral Observer too?"


No. But obviously, I am not alone.

And that is refreshing.
<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Re: Topic

>
"No. But obviously, I am not alone.
>
> And that is refreshing."

Not quite, he was talking about programming the way you detest. I'm not alone either, we have agreement on both sides of the issue. That's called debating which is what we are supposed to be doing. I hate the low blows though, very unnecesary.
>
 
Re: Topic

> So you are Neutral Observer too?


If she knew I'm a male and just how unattractive I am, she would be deeply offended. I suggest you apologize in advance....! :)


No, she's not me, and I'm not her. There are similarities because we're both real radio people who have a clue about how successful radio is done, not because we're the same person. Plus, we have differences in thought about radio...probably 10-20%...and, if I've successfully discerned anything about her personality by reading her posts (and she/me/mine), we'd probably have some pretty good knock-down, drag-outs if we ever got into that 10-20%!

Actually, we probably wouldn't...I would know she's in a particular camp, she would recognize I'm in a particular camp, and we would both know that both camps have their success stories and their share of also-rans. So, everything would be fine...
 
Re: Topic To The Real Radio People

" No, she's not me, and I'm not her. There are similarities
> because we're both real radio people who have a clue about
> how successful radio is done"

Well that's nice for both you, I suppose being in radio for almost 20 years and keeping stations going doesn't make me a real radio person. Maybe I'll grow up someday and become sucessful:) Having different views evidentially makes me not successful.
I suppose that means that both of you currently are running radio stations, not voice tracking them.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom