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Radio and Older Demos

D

dbdigital

Guest
OK, I knew there was some evidence to support the idea that, for advertisers, older listeners are worth going after. Here is an article on that subject in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer.

"As for listeners 55 and older, "It depends on who the client is," and on what the station's format is, (Larry) Roberts says.(VP Fisher Communications).

"But advertisers may yet grow more enamored with older listeners, for a couple of reasons. One is that "the older you are, the more likely you are to listen to the radio," Roberts says. And then there's the sheer number of baby boomers moving into that 55-plus demographic. "The demo has a lot more attraction today than it did even five years ago.""

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/tv/321339_radiobeat28.html

Although you can't hear me, I'm giving a rousing Bronx cheer to all those who think that only the 18-49 demographic matters.

db
 
dbdigital said:
OK, I knew there was some evidence to support the idea that, for advertisers, older listeners are worth going after. Here is an article on that subject in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer.

"As for listeners 55 and older, "It depends on who the client is," and on what the station's format is, (Larry) Roberts says.(VP Fisher Communications).

"But advertisers may yet grow more enamored with older listeners, for a couple of reasons. One is that "the older you are, the more likely you are to listen to the radio," Roberts says. And then there's the sheer number of baby boomers moving into that 55-plus demographic. "The demo has a lot more attraction today than it did even five years ago.""

Although you can't hear me, I'm giving a rousing Bronx cheer to all those who think that only the 18-49 demographic matters.

That is one radio owner with some old-leaning stations immagining what it would be like if pigs could fly.

99% of ad agency buys are in the 18 to 54 year range for buying specs. There are essentially none for 55+. And, over age 25, there is no group with a dignificant diffence in radio usage.
 
Not surprising to see David pounding the drum here with his same old failed business model. He should just use a template by now.

My real question is why is this on the HD board?
 
DavidEduardo said:
That is one radio owner with some old-leaning stations immagining what it would be like if pigs could fly.

99% of ad agency buys are in the 18 to 54 year range for buying specs. There are essentially none for 55+. And, over age 25, there is no group with a dignificant diffence in radio usage.

"Taking Seth Godin's Advice on Radio"

"Godin agrees that radio is on the decline... HD radio is not a new business. Hell, stations won't even invest in its programming... For those of you who read me regularly you know that the future of terrestrial broadcasting is in question due mainly to the fact that the next generation which hasn't fully impacted broadcasters yet is rejecting radio."

http://insidemusicmedia.blogspot.com/2007/06/taking-seth-godins-advice-on-radio.html

What are you going to do, Eduardo ? ;)
 
wgliradio said:
Not surprising to see David pounding the drum here with his same old failed business model. He should just use a template by now.

My real question is why is this on the HD board?

If you recall, some time back a discussion on HD-Radio turned to the issue of programming which, in turn, began a debate on "broad" casting, that is, appealing to a mass audience of a certain younger-skewed age range, verses specialized programming and appealing to older, 50+ demographics.

I thought it was interesting that there was a news article which addressed the topic of radio and the value of older listeners and, since I have you all here, decided to post it. Simple as that.

Of course, like a fly to a trout, the news item attracted the attention of the usual suspect.

db
 
I tell you if I had the programming and consulting responsiblilites this guy has.... or claims he has... I wouldn't be on this board at all.
 
wgliradio said:
Not surprising to see David pounding the drum here with his same old failed business model.

First, radio is not a failed model. While the growth is slow, it is growth. And the good stations are very profitable.

But it is fact that agency advertisers do not buy 55+ demos; you can deny that fact all you want, but it is a fact.
 
What a coincidence. First WCBS-FM jettisons 'Jacked' for Oldies and now AARP is joining fight over radio programming for the 50+.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/06/AR2007070600481.html

I don't care what any self-proclaimed, out-of-touch "expert" says, 50+ is going to be the next big market for radio and probably the music industry.

"...industry analyst Sean Ross says he's seeing tentative signs of rebirth for oldies. Even as the format is dropped in some cities, there's some evidence that the growing desperation over the young generation's turn from broadcast radio is prompting some companies to look anew at oldies."

db
 
dbdigital said:
What a coincidence. First WCBS-FM jettisons 'Jacked' for Oldies

Actually, CBS-FM is going to a new format for them, classic hits of the 70's and into the 80's with a bit of late 60's. This, but standard industry definitions, is not "oldies."

and now AARP is joining fight over radio programming for the 50+.

First, there are plenty of formats that appeal to 55+, even if that group is not the main target; country, talk, AC, Urban AC, Smooth Jazz, Spanish adult hits, etc.

It's the formats that only appeal to over-55 that do not succeed because there is little or no advertiser demand for them.

Oldies was never more than a niche format in 55+, so your point as to oldies is mistaken.

I don't care what any self-proclaimed, out-of-touch "expert" says, 50+ is going to be the next big market for radio and probably the music industry.

When advertisers can get decent ROI's on advertising on the radio to 55+, this may happen. As it is, today, time sales demos do not include 55+.
 
DavidEduardo said:
First, radio is not a failed model. While the growth is slow, it is growth. And the good stations are very profitable.

But it is fact that agency advertisers do not buy 55+ demos; you can deny that fact all you want, but it is a fact.

Events over the past week give hope that maybe some people are waking from their slumber.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Actually, CBS-FM is going to a new format for them, classic hits of the 70's and into the 80's with a bit of late 60's. This, but standard industry definitions, is not "oldies."

Pretty much what they were doing just before the plug was pulled in 2005.

It's just a shame that AARP has to stand up to make rich people richer, when this is so obvious.
 
wgliradio said:
DavidEduardo said:
Actually, CBS-FM is going to a new format for them, classic hits of the 70's and into the 80's with a bit of late 60's. This, but standard industry definitions, is not "oldies."

Pretty much what they were doing just before the plug was pulled in 2005.

It's just a shame that AARP has to stand up to make rich people richer, when this is so obvious.

Actually, as we have discussed elsewhere, playing 20% songs from, mostly, the early 70's and 80% 60's songs is oldies by any standard... and that is what the pre-Jack CBS was. Classic Hits is playing mostly (around 70% give or take) 70's with the bulk of the rest in the 80's and a smattering of 60's in lower rotations. Some classic hits stations, like WBIG, have up to 40% 80's tunes, and no 60's at all.

I have no idea what your AARP comment means, but I am confused by a lot of what you say.
 
DavidEduardo said:
wgliradio said:
DavidEduardo said:
Actually, CBS-FM is going to a new format for them, classic hits of the 70's and into the 80's with a bit of late 60's. This, but standard industry definitions, is not "oldies."

Pretty much what they were doing just before the plug was pulled in 2005.

It's just a shame that AARP has to stand up to make rich people richer, when this is so obvious.

Actually, as we have discussed elsewhere, playing 20% songs from, mostly, the early 70's and 80% 60's songs is oldies by any standard... and that is what the pre-Jack CBS was. Classic Hits is playing mostly (around 70% give or take) 70's with the bulk of the rest in the 80's and a smattering of 60's in lower rotations. Some classic hits stations, like WBIG, have up to 40% 80's tunes, and no 60's at all.

I have no idea what your AARP comment means, but I am confused by a lot of what you say.

Oldies is, by definition, 55-74 with maybe some selections from the disco era. That was not CBS-FM on 7-3-05.

Classic Hits can be a very vague term and should be applied market to market. I feel the term fit for the music and market it was playing in at the time.

The AARP comment means that it is a shame that it takes someone like AARP to have to put forth an effort to make broadcasters aware that there is money for them to be made by serving demos not being served.
 
wgliradio said:
Oldies is, by definition, 55-74 with maybe some selections from the disco era. That was not CBS-FM on 7-3-05.

No, oldies by definition is a 60's based format. A little 50's and it is still oldies. A little early 70's and it is still oldies.

Classic hits is a 70's and early 80's based format. A little more 80's and it is still classic hits. A tiny bit of 60's and it is still classic hits. Just look at how stations file their own format names with Arbitron...

Classic Hits can be a very vague term and should be applied market to market. I feel the term fit for the music and market it was playing in at the time.

Classsic hits is based in the 70's and early 80's, and can swing a little either way at the ends. That is not what CBS-FM was... it was oldies with a tad of early 70's.

The AARP comment means that it is a shame that it takes someone like AARP to have to put forth an effort to make broadcasters aware that there is money for them to be made by serving demos not being served.

The AARP comments have done nothing to convince advertisers to target 55+. There are no more 55+ campaigns coming out today or tomorrow than there were last year or the year before. The AARP has absolutely no influence over advertisers... sales data does have influence, and there is no profit in advertising to 55+.

Broadcasters are even less influenced by the AARP. We know there is no 55+ money to be had, as there are no 55+ campaigns. So we would be foolish, not to mention fired, if we focused any programming on purely 55+.

In Spring, 1998, the average age of CBS-FM listeners was 45. By Winter, 2005 it was 51. In Jack's first book, it was 43. With classic hits, it should be around 44, so they will get a younger, salable audience than the 60% over 50 audience they had with oldies and avoid the horrible declines in revenue they were experiencing.
 
DavidEduardo said:
We know there is no 55+ money to be had, as there are no 55+ campaigns.

I know that is the conventional wisdom, but I can't agree. I'm sure you have all kinds of stats that will prove me wrong, but like Winston Churchill said, "The only statistics you can rely on are the ones you falsified yourself."

I think you are a little younger than I am, but not by a lot. I recently turned 60. My observation is my friends are buying Harley Davidson's, taking expensive trips, buying motor homes, and HDTV sets. Second homes are not that uncommon. Some of us spend way more than we should on collector cars. Take look at the Barret Jackson car acutions in Scottsdale to see the biggest pising match ever assembled. There is lots of money in gray hair.

It's not just big ticket items. We pamper our pets. We eat out a lot. We buy al kinds of consumer goods. We buy boats, personal watercraft and lots of other toys. I buy a new car every few years and (horror of horrors) actually switch brands from time to time. I don't know of very many people in my age group who are locked into any particular brand name. In fact, as children of the '60's we tend to pride ourselves in "sticking it to the man." The problem is, frequently, we are "the man."

If we are not buying stuff for ourselves, we are spending our money on things for our grand kids, nieces and nephews. There is money out there in the 55+ age group. So far, very few companies have woken up to that reality. This is not your grandfather's retirement. The rules have changed. The longer this group is ignored, the more money you are leaving on the table.
 
Chuck is correct, there is money on the table.
David is also correct, the agencies aren't buying over 55...
But the reality is, the stations that rely on direct sales and build long term relationships with local sponsors are more stable, and more likely to weather the arbitrary ups and downs of Arbitron.
Any broadcaster who figures this out, and has the luxury of time to develop a format and cultivate an audience can do very well. Poor corporate programmers... they've got to tap the fickle agency buyers RIGHT NOW, or look for another job.
g
 
Chuck said:
I think you are a little younger than I am, but not by a lot. I recently turned 60. My observation is my friends are buying Harley Davidson's, taking expensive trips, buying motor homes, and HDTV sets. Second homes are not that uncommon. Some of us spend way more than we should on collector cars. Take look at the Barret Jackson car acutions in Scottsdale to see the biggest pising match ever assembled. There is lots of money in gray hair.

That is irrelevant. Nobody doubts that many over-55+s have lots of money, and, as a group, a large percentage have spendable income beyond the basics of life.

What I have explained over and over is that agency accounts, like P&G and Coke and Honda and so on do tons of research on ad effectiveness as well as even more on the prime prospects for their goods and services. They do even more research to design products, right down to the labels and packaging, to appeal to specific age groups.

What they universally find is that advertising to over 55 may create sales, but the cost per sale is higher than the profit on the sale, becasue the more mature a person is, the more difficult it is to change as much as two decades of consumer habit-building.

This is not about consumer spendable income. It is about return on investment. And for most products, and for nearly all those advertised on the radio, going after 55+ is not profitable.

Remember why Oldsmobile was discontinued as a marque of GM? It was because the brand only had appeal to 55+ consumers, and no hope of growth because generally, the 55+ conusmer bought one and then died. A bit extreme, but that was the published reason... no sales growth, and no interest in the brand by younger folks.

It's not just big ticket items. We pamper our pets. We eat out a lot. We buy al kinds of consumer goods. We buy boats, personal watercraft and lots of other toys. I buy a new car every few years and (horror of horrors) actually switch brands from time to time. I don't know of very many people in my age group who are locked into any particular brand name. In fact, as children of the '60's we tend to pride ourselves in "sticking it to the man." The problem is, frequently, we are "the man."

The truth is that advertisers have quantified the issue, and do not advertise towards 55+ on the radio. I asked our local GM in radio's #1 market how many 55+ campaigns had been up in the last 12+ in this huge, billion dollar plus market (stations know what campaigns are up because stations are asked to submit cost per point quotes against the target demo) and I was told that not a one could be recalled.

If we are not buying stuff for ourselves, we are spending our money on things for our grand kids, nieces and nephews.

It does not matter if you are paying off the national debt of both Benin and Burkina Fasso... advertisers know they can not make money when the advertise to you. So they prefer to ride on the spillage for more focused campaigns, since the spillage is free (what I mean is that a great 35-54 buy may also give lots of 55+.... but the agency only pays for the target demo... the rest is free, so to speak) and they get a little bang in 55+ from news/talk, sports, oldies, classic hits, AC, country, Spanish adult hits, Urban AC, etc. But they do not go out to buy 55+ as it is not productive.

There is money out there in the 55+ age group. So far, very few companies have woken up to that reality.

They know it is out there. They also know that by age 65, over 60% of households live on social security alone, close to the poverty level.

In any case, they also know there is no ROI on any over-55 radio advertising.

This is not your grandfather's retirement. The rules have changed. The longer this group is ignored, the more money you are leaving on the table.

Try to tell P&G the couple of hundred million they spent on consumer research is wrong, just because you buy your grandkids toys. The fact is, you are judging all America by your obviously affluent and luxurious lifestyle. Most people over 55 can´t even consider early retirement because they can not afford it.
 
grantchester said:
Chuck is correct, there is money on the table.
David is also correct, the agencies aren't buying over 55...
But the reality is, the stations that rely on direct sales and build long term relationships with local sponsors are more stable, and more likely to weather the arbitrary ups and downs of Arbitron.
Any broadcaster who figures this out, and has the luxury of time to develop a format and cultivate an audience can do very well. Poor corporate programmers... they've got to tap the fickle agency buyers RIGHT NOW, or look for another job.
g

To a point, you are right. But in many larger markets, the direct business pays much lower rates and demands far more "moochendising" than the agecy accounts. I was in one top 15 market where it was not even viable to have direct sellers... what they brought in was minimal, and half of it was slow pay or no-pay. We were the market's #1 biller selling only to agencies.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Classic hits is a 70's and early 80's based format. A little more 80's and it is still classic hits. A tiny bit of 60's and it is still classic hits. Just look at how stations file their own format names with Arbitron...

And you're the authority on this? CBS-FM was playing early 80's hits in May and June 2005. It can still be Classic Hits, as far as I'm concerned, with mid-late 60's music.

There are no defined lines here David. What's the difference between an AC and a Hot AC? Would WALK be an AC? What about LTW? Fresh is a Hot AC? When it was still Mix as Classic Dance it was listed as Hot AC. It's still listed as Hot AC. Is Fresh and Mix the same thing?

DavidEduardo said:
Classsic hits is based in the 70's and early 80's, and can swing a little either way at the ends. That is not what CBS-FM was... it was oldies with a tad of early 70's.

As someone who listened to the station for 6-7 hours a day right up to the end....

No.

DavidEduardo said:
In Spring, 1998, the average age of CBS-FM listeners was 45. By Winter, 2005 it was 51. In Jack's first book, it was 43. With classic hits, it should be around 44, so they will get a younger, salable audience than the 60% over 50 audience they had with oldies and avoid the horrible declines in revenue they were experiencing.

And the presentation will be much better and the proof is in that the station should have been LEFT alone. It was ALREADY classic hits by June of 05 and it should have been allowed to continue to evolve while keeping the billing it HAD. Instead the ratings and revenue were flushed.
 
No sense in banging our heads against a wall on this. I know there's money to be made in the 50+ market and many of you do too. I also know for a fact that AARP has spent millions researching the 50+ market as have other research firms such as Age Wave. They know there's money to be made in the 50+ market and have published reports to prove it.

If agencies and broadcasters want to cling to the tired bromides that there's no money in older Americans that's their funeral. Personally, I would treat this thinking as the toxic waste that it is; encase it in cement, bury it in a mountain and forget it. Then I would develop a campaign to capture this lucrative and growing market while their still listening to radio.

db
 
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