radio..ice cold

[landtuna]

Now there's a scientific sampling! That settles it, then; there is only one "set" (couple?) of seniors in each state who listen to NPR, and none at all, anywhere in the US of A, who listen to right-wing talk.

I'm pretty sure readers know I am just giving my personal experiences and not trying to promote a common experience. However, I know a ton of other seniors and you would think that if listening to Big Mouth Radio were a common occurrence I would have run across more than none listening to it. Judging by this and another radio board the only people who listen to BMR are people in the 40-50 year bracket, White, male and mad at the world.

Of course, their commercials might entice listenership too - "git cher used brass reloaded at One-Eyed Lou's Gun and Fish Emporium fer cheap!".

 

[landtuna]

With regards to TV, network TV is NOT aimed at seniors. You may be talking about certain cable networks. But in that case, they get paid a fee by the cable company, plus additional money from advertisers.

I am specifically NOT talking about network TV but rather all the subnets that have popped up in the past few years. All of them seem to be aimed at and supported by senior advertising. I don't know what the cable channels do any longer as I was among the first cable-cutters and have remained cable-free since.

 

[landtuna]

Then why is the average age of a CBS viewer over 50?

If that is true, and I have reason to doubt it, it might be because most of the CBS properties exhibit a certain content maturity beyond what the other nets broadcast. ABC and Fox are pathetic in their offerings and NBC isn't far behind. You don't have to spend energy lifting the bar when your competition is letting it hit the floor.

 

[JRH]

I know of only one set of seniors who listen largely to NPR. I know of no senior who listens to the idiots on talk radio.

I found some ratings info I'd saved from Arbitron's website. As of a few years ago, the number one format 55-64 and 65+ was listed as news/talk/information. County was 2nd in both demos, AC was 3rd, classic hits 4th.

A lot of the seniors who listen to the talk stations are probably like my parents, who are 85+. They listen to the CC-owned talk station because they have literally always listened to it. They don't listen nearly as much as when it was a full-service MOR station decades ago, but they listen to the news/chit-chat AM drive program, and some of the local talk shows. The radio usually is off before Rush comes on in the afternoon, but they might hear him if they're in the car.

 

[TheBigA]

I am specifically NOT talking about network TV but rather all the subnets that have popped up in the past few years. All of them seem to be aimed at and supported by senior advertising. I don't know what the cable channels do any longer as I was among the first cable-cutters and have remained cable-free since.

I've said this to you before, and I'll say it again: Just because something is popular among your circle doesn't mean it's a potential goldmine. The only exception I'd make to that would be if your circle only uses and owns Apple products. Otherwise, not so much.

 

[landtuna]

That would appeal to nearly nobody, and certainly to no one advertisers want to reach. Standards and swing will pretty much drive off anyone under 75.

I think your speed reading is failing you. I did not promote a playlist consisting of a majority of Swing or Standards but rather a popular song from the genre every so often. Even my 20-something daughter has learned to appreciate Dean Martin and her favorite dance number is one by Gene Krupa. Takes all kinds.

"Very popular" is relative. When they were nostalgia, the average share was 0.4, and not much over a 1.5 in 55+... less than either of the country stations, for example.

Country is always going to be more popular than Nostalgia here in cowboy-land. But KOY (1230 or 1260) was hurt terribly by a very poor AM signal which alone would have punished that station beyond belief.

Yet half or more of the audiences for the two commercial talkers in PHX are 55 and older, and NPR has a large 55+ component to its listenership. Talk is, overall, the top format among seniors and geezers.

I would not consider NPR a "talkie" in the same class with those other two losers. NPR is apparently one place where you can get informed news and commentary so I would expect its listeners to be older than younger just on that basis alone. I doubt the Kardashians are discussed in great detail there. And I don't doubt that the two commercial talkers audiences are 55+ either. I would classify their listeners as the "Get Off My Lawn" group.

They can't only have 55+ numbers and make money.

Wasn't suggesting that. Only that 55+ shouldn't be totally ignored.

One of the reasons for the change came from those direct accounts you think can be so profitable: business owners and managers told the station, "you only bring in very old people, and that scares away the younger consumers".

Nothing I love better than moseying up to the checkout behind some 20-something and giving them the evil eye. My hero is Jack Nicholson. Of course, if they start to run, I'm screwed.

Remember that people over 40 want to feel younger than they really are. So things that feel "old" are not good in the world of marketing.

Yeah, thanks to American advertising we can't wait to throw grandma to the curb. Also any female with small breasts or a "fuller" figure. There is a lot of things wrong with advertising in the USA today but that is a different rant.

Even a local retailer has considerable research, often provided by the brands they sell or the franchiser they deal with. A car dealer will have loads of input from the manufacturer, with suggestions on how to advertise. Much of that support material identifies the hot spots for sales, which are generally not among seniors. If the account has a local agency, they will bring the manufacturer data to meetings... and this may be critical if the supplier provides support dollars for local campaigns.

Perhaps then you could explain the apparent dichotomy that Hyundai continues advertising based almost exclusively upon low price even when pushing its several luxury models. Then there is the Mercedes-Benz CLA. You'll pardon me if I don't buy into the intelligence of marketing people just yet.

Take the cruise line advertising. They don't sell cruises. They sell the feeling you will have when cruising with them. That requires video. Or take the medications for ED, COPD, frequent urination, osteoporosis and such. They don't sell the disease, they sell how fun a life you will have cruising in the convertible, walking on the beach with the dog, out with friends and such. That takes video. Or think of the walk-in tubs. They sell how easy to use they are and how bending and slipping and falling are minimized. Again, video needed.

While I agree that somethings are easier sold visually than orally I also believe that if done right radio can tweak the imagination of the listener every bit as much as watching a video.

All those lines are managed by agencies for big companies. They allocate their dollars to visual media. They don't put anything towards radio, so radio can't sell to them.

We are entering the Twilight Zone, home of circular reasoning. Back to my earlier comment of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You and Big A continue to say that it isn't the broadcaster's fault - it is the agencies, yet who goes under when the ad dollars stop? The agencies will continue with print or TV or even billboards but radio will either turn subscription or go silent. You can continue to blame the agencies and their clients for radio's failure to turn an advertising buck but that won't fix the problem. Radio must find a way, if it is to continue on an ad-supported basis, to sell to as many demos as possible. To just accept that another industry makes that decision for you is slow suicide.

I must indeed be unique because I am far more financially secure today than at any time during my working life. In fact, my main purpose in life these days is to figure out how to keep from giving the gubmint so much of my assets - legally of course. There was no trick to it. I just worked hard and lived below my means. I also had a bit of luck in the market but like a lot of investors I had to lose half before regaining it back again. Life is not without a few surprises. Trying to instill those same behaviors in my children has proved frustrating but then none of them are yet as old as I was when I learned my lesson either so perhaps there is still hope.

 

[davideduardo]

If that is true, and I have reason to doubt it, it might be because most of the CBS properties exhibit a certain content maturity beyond what the other nets broadcast.

It's true and the data is pretty freely available on the Internet.

 

[davideduardo]

I think your speed reading is failing you. I did not promote a playlist consisting of a majority of Swing or Standards but rather a popular song from the genre every so often. Even my 20-something daughter has learned to appreciate Dean Martin and her favorite dance number is one by Gene Krupa. Takes all kinds.

But, generally and ignoring the rare exceptions, an oldies fan will hate big bands and crooners and such. By merging eras and styles, you guarantee that nearly nobody will like the blend.

Country is always going to be more popular than Nostalgia here in cowboy-land.

It's likely going to be more popular in Cleveland and Detroit and Portland, too. Part of the reason is that country holds its listeners, introducing them to new music. Oldies tend to wear out and don't appeal to practically anyone beyond the folks that grew up on them.

But KOY (1230 or 1260) was hurt terribly by a very poor AM signal which alone would have punished that station beyond belief.

Yet that station was #1 in Phoenix at one time. It must have had enough signal to get a listener base then... so it should have performed fairly well as an exclusive format unless the format was just no longer appealing to anyone who was alive.

I would not consider NPR a "talkie" in the same class with those other two losers. NPR is apparently one place where you can get informed news and commentary so I would expect its listeners to be older than younger just on that basis alone. I doubt the Kardashians are discussed in great detail there. And I don't doubt that the two commercial talkers audiences are 55+ either. I would classify their listeners as the "Get Off My Lawn" group.

My only point is that spoken word formats of all kinds generally get better numbers than oldies stations and even than classic hits stations.

Wasn't suggesting that. Only that 55+ shouldn't be totally ignored.

If radio pays attention to that group, then we pay less attention to younger groups. 55+ = no revenue. Under 55 = all the market revenue. Easy choice.

Yeah, thanks to American advertising we can't wait to throw grandma to the curb. Also any female with small breasts or a "fuller" figure. There is a lot of things wrong with advertising in the USA today but that is a different rant.

This is not an advertising issue. THe older you get, the closer to death you are. People like to feel younger and to "cheat the grim reaper". It has nothing to do with advertising.... It was a theme for Shakespeare, Thomas Hardy and even James Joice. None of them were Madison Avenue types.

Perhaps then you could explain the apparent dichotomy that Hyundai continues advertising based almost exclusively upon low price even when pushing its several luxury models.

It's actually clever. Get the Luxury of a Mercedes for $20 k less. Very smart.

Then there is the Mercedes-Benz CLA.

What about it?

While I agree that somethings are easier sold visually than orally I also believe that if done right radio can tweak the imagination of the listener every bit as much as watching a video.

If that were true, radio would have a much bigger client base. Many advertisers have tried to do the theater of the mind thing and for certain classes of products it does not work. THose are the some of the ones I mentioned.

You and Big A continue to say that it isn't the broadcaster's fault - it is the agencies, yet who goes under when the ad dollars stop? The agencies will continue with print or TV or even billboards but radio will either turn subscription or go silent.

That is a fact. But there is nothing radio can do if a client... or most clients... feel that advertising to older people has a poor or negative ROI. It has been that way for decades.

You can continue to blame the agencies and their clients for radio's failure to turn an advertising buck but that won't fix the problem. Radio must find a way, if it is to continue on an ad-supported basis, to sell to as many demos as possible. To just accept that another industry makes that decision for you is slow suicide.

Radio is too busy trying to find a business model for the migration to new media platforms. The concerns are things like royalties and other issues that can be negotiated. THere is no way radio can change the buying behaviour of seniors.

I must indeed be unique because I am far more financially secure today than at any time during my working life.

Few feel that way. Maybe that is why you don't get how the rest of the folks behave.

 

[landtuna]

I found some ratings info I'd saved from Arbitron's website. As of a few years ago, the number one format 55-64 and 65+ was listed as news/talk/information. County was 2nd in both demos, AC was 3rd, classic hits 4th.

That's funny because when I was in my late 20ies I had a one-hour commute each way to work. I used to listen to News Radio almost exclusively during those drives because it was my only time when I could hear the news. Once I moved from Noo Yawk all news was no longer on my preset.

 

[b-turner]

In the major markets it is true the agencies will not buy and they control the advertising dollars of every account that can spent enough money to make the investment in time and effort worth the effort. When it takes $200 to make a $200 sale you get nowhere fast.

In smaller markets where the plus 50 audience is many times are larger percentage of the overall population, it might be relatively easy to have a successful station targeting the 50+ demographic simply because the business owner makes buying decisions and likely is at the 50+ or near the 50+ demographic. There are places where even a more contemporary version of the beautiful music format works in non-retirement communities, such as in Kansas.

I think what we have is Landtuna making an argument that a format for the 50+ audience can work and those of us in a position to provide a return on investor's money are saying we'd love to but it just won't work. In reality it is not our fault but involves issues beyond our control and influence.

 

[TheBigA]

I think what we have is Landtuna making an argument that a format for the 50+ audience can work and those of us in a position to provide a return on investor's money are saying we'd love to but it just won't work. In reality it is not our fault but involves issues beyond our control and influence.

It's just that I've never had the experience of working in a small market. But I hear that you're right.

 

[landtuna]

But, generally and ignoring the rare exceptions, an oldies fan will hate big bands and crooners and such. By merging eras and styles, you guarantee that nearly nobody will like the blend.

I was not suggesting a "blend" so much as just the occasional retro classic. If your target demo is 50+ I don't think anyone will be turned off by the rare Dean Martin vocal.

It's likely going to be more popular in Cleveland and Detroit and Portland, too. Part of the reason is that country holds its listeners, introducing them to new music. Oldies tend to wear out and don't appeal to practically anyone beyond the folks that grew up on them.

Country, as it is now, has some of the most repetitive music of any genre. Both male and female performers fit a very tight mold and they could all be singing off the same music. Oldies has a 30-year history of tens of thousands of titles and a huge repertoire of different sounds. There is no need ever to become too repetitious in an Oldies format. But I am not talking about Oldies exclusively but rather a playlist broken up with a variety of classics. There are even a ton of classic Country songs in a proper Oldies format because crossovers used to be common back then.

Yet that station was #1 in Phoenix at one time. It must have had enough signal to get a listener base then... so it should have performed fairly well as an exclusive format unless the format was just no longer appealing to anyone who was alive.

KOY was #1 while on 550 but never even close on 1230/1260 (can't remember which at the moment). 550 covered a large part of the entire state back then.

My only point is that spoken word formats of all kinds generally get better numbers than oldies stations and even than classic hits stations.

I suppose that might be true but combining niche formats seems like faulty statistics.

This is not an advertising issue. THe older you get, the closer to death you are. People like to feel younger and to "cheat the grim reaper". It has nothing to do with advertising.... It was a theme for Shakespeare, Thomas Hardy and even James Joice. None of them were Madison Avenue types.

I was much closer to death during my late teens and early 20's when carrying a radio through the mountains and jungles of S. Vietnam.

It's actually clever. Get the Luxury of a Mercedes for $20 k less. Very smart.

The CLA is a poseur luxo ride by all accounts in the automotive press. Reminds me of that abortion of a Cadillac that was, in fact, a rebadged Chevy Cavalier.

That is a fact. But there is nothing radio can do if a client... or most clients... feel that advertising to older people has a poor or negative ROI. It has been that way for decades.

If radio cannot solve that problem then it is doomed to die in several more decades because all its listeners will eventually become old. Right now it has a tenuous hold on the younger demos but the very young do not know radio exists - and it won't for them if the current problems continue.

Radio is too busy trying to find a business model for the migration to new media platforms. The concerns are things like royalties and other issues that can be negotiated. THere is no way radio can change the buying behaviour of seniors.

I fully agree radio has bigger problems, today, than trying to reach an underperforming demo but assuming the current problems with royalties can be successfully addressed the "demo issue" will eventually become your #1 problem as your listener base ages and there are few listeners in the prime demos.

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

The consensus on other forums seems to conclude that a combination of newer entertainment availabilities, station signal problems (especially AM), clueless programming, and demo concerns all combine to blame.
Only the order and percentages of all those concerns vary among those discussing the erosion.

Moreover, none of those problems is improving. They're like rust or a leak.

There had been a great thread on one of these Radio Discussion boards two years ago -- THOUSANDS of hits and responses. It dealt with WARM, formerly a huge market power in Scranton/Wilkes-Barre. I've seen the same thoughts and hopes and plans repeated elsewhere.

Dudn't look like it's going to be Springtime popping up on the radio dials soon, LandTuna -- if ever again. And I fear that as a radio person/DXer/casual listener/supporter, involved with some form of radio since grammar school and the transistor days.

 

[TheBigA]

The consensus on other forums seems to conclude that a combination of newer entertainment availabilities, station signal problems (especially AM), clueless programming, and demo concerns all combine to blame.

And yet, contrary to the opinions of "the consensus," the fact is that hundreds of millions of people tune in to OTA radio every day. It's very clear and specific information. We know where they are, how long they listen, and lots of other information about them. They must be the "silent majority."

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

Tick-tock tick-tock tick-tock.

Cool Response there though, Big A. We agree to somewhat agree. I'd merely been reporting what I'd seen and read.

(I do think Classic Hits will outlast Classic Rock, though ...... far bigger library; more crossover capabilities. That was my only theory or observation, throughout all of this finger-pointing)

 

[TheBigA]

Tick-tock tick-tock tick-tock.

Cool Response there though, Big A. We agree to somewhat agree. I'd merely been reporting what I'd seen and read.

Once again the facts indicate the audience decline has been a couple of percentage points in the last ten years. Not bad for a platform "the consensus" has given up for dead. One could quote Mark Twain. The younger audiences are more than making up for the loss of boomers. Particularly in formats like country, urban, and CHR. Contrary to Tuna's personal experience. No, the future is NOT in the past. The future is in the future, and radio is clearly presenting the kind of curated content today's listeners want.