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Radio Positioning
- Thread starter qman
- Start date
qman said:
Only if it was tomorrow's country yesterday.
country is listened to people that really dont care about music. so does it really matter?
qman said:
It depends on what country. I hear Bulgarian music is funky but Cuban music is hot.
I always liked the concept of "future gold" on "oldies" or "classic hits" stations. It's kind of like "tomorrow's music yesterday".
B
Bob1370
Guest
"Reminds me of the oldies format on WVOR back in the '70s when they featured "future gold" hits twice an hour."
They got that idea from WCBS-FM, which made similar use of current hits as "future gold" from the time it pioneered the oldies format back in 1972 and was an inspiration for WVOR's gold years. Later on in the decade WVOR morphed into the gold-heavy personality AC it became at its peak--an approach borrowed, in turn, from WHEN and WGR, which pioneered the gold-heavy personality AC format in the early 70s. Back between 1973 and 1977 WHEN ran, in a typical 10-song stretch, roughly 60% current, 40% gold or recurrent, and if memory serves, WVOR eventually came to sound a lot like a Rochester version of WHEN, while Jack Palvino was running 'VOR and doing mornings in the middle to late 1970s.
The idea of blending a lot of current hits with golds and recurrents eventually influenced a lot of AC stations. Some used a 60-40 ratio like WHEN or WVOR. Others that had format competition in their markets and wanted to skew their audiences a little younger, like WBEN in Buffalo, leaned more heavily on current AC hits and less on gold. IIRC, while I was working there (1978-81) WBEN was running roughly a 75-25 current-to-gold mix. You still hear the same basic concept of blending currents with a lot of recurrents and golds today on AC mainstays like Star 102.5.
They got that idea from WCBS-FM, which made similar use of current hits as "future gold" from the time it pioneered the oldies format back in 1972 and was an inspiration for WVOR's gold years. Later on in the decade WVOR morphed into the gold-heavy personality AC it became at its peak--an approach borrowed, in turn, from WHEN and WGR, which pioneered the gold-heavy personality AC format in the early 70s. Back between 1973 and 1977 WHEN ran, in a typical 10-song stretch, roughly 60% current, 40% gold or recurrent, and if memory serves, WVOR eventually came to sound a lot like a Rochester version of WHEN, while Jack Palvino was running 'VOR and doing mornings in the middle to late 1970s.
The idea of blending a lot of current hits with golds and recurrents eventually influenced a lot of AC stations. Some used a 60-40 ratio like WHEN or WVOR. Others that had format competition in their markets and wanted to skew their audiences a little younger, like WBEN in Buffalo, leaned more heavily on current AC hits and less on gold. IIRC, while I was working there (1978-81) WBEN was running roughly a 75-25 current-to-gold mix. You still hear the same basic concept of blending currents with a lot of recurrents and golds today on AC mainstays like Star 102.5.
Part of the 'VOR Story
It's always interesting to read the posts of those observers on the outside looking in. Bob1370, you're not altogether on the money regarding any possible similarity between WHEN and WVOR. 'VOR was one of the early clients of the Research Group. They were developing stations of this type in a few markets at the time. Magic in Cleveland was one of their earliest successes and probably a lot closer to being the prototype of what WVOR would become.
I worked at 'VOR in sales for 2 or 3 years before becoming involved in the programming "braintrust" that included among others Palvino and a very bright Chief Engineer named Bob Mallery. We cleaned up the music library which had been somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of thousand songs and developed some new clocks and music rotations. Mallery wrote a "homebrew" Apple-based music program and with guidance and music testing from the Reseach Group, we were off and running. I was then named the station's Assistant GM to work with Jack Palvino, the GM and part owner.
By the early 80s, ‘VOR had become a strong number one in demo and eventually hitting a 10 share to be the 12+ champion under PD John Elliott.
In the fall of 1983, I was sent to Buffalo 2 or 3 days a week as an in-company program consultant and we installed the same basic format at WBUF. Even though Buffalo legend, Stan Roberts, had been hosting mornings for awhile, the station had been struggling trying to compete with ‘BEN and “KB” with an AM-type AC format.
In the fall of ’83, ‘BUF jumped from a 4.7 to a 7.0 12+ with some very strong gains in demo, 24-54. In the summer of '84, I was named VP/GM of ‘BUF when the GM resigned to take a job back in Canada.
With strong support from corporate (Palvino and Bud Wertheirmer), strong promotion, programmers like Paul Warren, Jay Meyers, Art Wander and Bob Mallery’s input and “homebrew” music program, ‘BUF became a leading station in the market in short order with strong 25-54 ratings and billings to match. A position it held for a several years.
Hell, we even hit a 10 share 12+ for number one honors a couple of times.
It's always interesting to read the posts of those observers on the outside looking in. Bob1370, you're not altogether on the money regarding any possible similarity between WHEN and WVOR. 'VOR was one of the early clients of the Research Group. They were developing stations of this type in a few markets at the time. Magic in Cleveland was one of their earliest successes and probably a lot closer to being the prototype of what WVOR would become.
I worked at 'VOR in sales for 2 or 3 years before becoming involved in the programming "braintrust" that included among others Palvino and a very bright Chief Engineer named Bob Mallery. We cleaned up the music library which had been somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of thousand songs and developed some new clocks and music rotations. Mallery wrote a "homebrew" Apple-based music program and with guidance and music testing from the Reseach Group, we were off and running. I was then named the station's Assistant GM to work with Jack Palvino, the GM and part owner.
By the early 80s, ‘VOR had become a strong number one in demo and eventually hitting a 10 share to be the 12+ champion under PD John Elliott.
In the fall of 1983, I was sent to Buffalo 2 or 3 days a week as an in-company program consultant and we installed the same basic format at WBUF. Even though Buffalo legend, Stan Roberts, had been hosting mornings for awhile, the station had been struggling trying to compete with ‘BEN and “KB” with an AM-type AC format.
In the fall of ’83, ‘BUF jumped from a 4.7 to a 7.0 12+ with some very strong gains in demo, 24-54. In the summer of '84, I was named VP/GM of ‘BUF when the GM resigned to take a job back in Canada.
With strong support from corporate (Palvino and Bud Wertheirmer), strong promotion, programmers like Paul Warren, Jay Meyers, Art Wander and Bob Mallery’s input and “homebrew” music program, ‘BUF became a leading station in the market in short order with strong 25-54 ratings and billings to match. A position it held for a several years.
Hell, we even hit a 10 share 12+ for number one honors a couple of times.
JustCallMeSherlock said:
WBUF at the time was a runaway train, a station that was instrumental in taking WBEN, WGR and WKBW down a few notches, if not causing their eventual demise. WBUF offered well-known air personalities that seasoned the stew in a music intensive format that also featured news from a veteran news department (who can forget Carl Spavento and Jack Mahl), well-placed daily music features and weekend specialties. Ahhh, the 80s; when music from the 60s was only 20 to 25 years old and the 50s were enough of a novelty and sufficiently relevant to get sprinkled in every once in a while. These days, seems like it's music from the 80s that's 20-25 years old, with the 70s and 60s getting sprinkled in every once in a while. Congratulations on a very successful radio station that holds and deserves its place in Buffalo radio history.
B
Bob1370
Guest
"'VOR was one of the early clients of the Research Group. They were developing stations of this type in a few markets at the time. Magic in Cleveland was one of their earliest successes and probably a lot closer to being the prototype of what WVOR would become.
I worked at 'VOR in sales for 2 or 3 years before becoming involved in the programming "braintrust" that included among others Palvino and a very bright Chief Engineer named Bob Mallery. We cleaned up the music library which had been somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of thousand songs and developed some new clocks and music rotations. Mallery wrote a "homebrew" Apple-based music program and with guidance and music testing from the Reseach Group, we were off and running. I was then named the station's Assistant GM to work with Jack Palvino, the GM and part owner."
Thanks for the background, Larry...nice to know the full details.
Guess my reaction as a listener/observer, was that 'VOR's sound stirred memories of what we'd been doing at WHEN in '73 and '74 under John Patton and Jim Ashbery--what they had in common other than a general feel and concept was that they were both fun to listen to (and I'd venture a guess 'VOR was also a fun place to work, just as WHEN was back in the day). Wish we had more stations like them today.
Think it's possible now to take a station and recreate that feeling for today's listeners?
Can we afford not to try?
I worked at 'VOR in sales for 2 or 3 years before becoming involved in the programming "braintrust" that included among others Palvino and a very bright Chief Engineer named Bob Mallery. We cleaned up the music library which had been somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of thousand songs and developed some new clocks and music rotations. Mallery wrote a "homebrew" Apple-based music program and with guidance and music testing from the Reseach Group, we were off and running. I was then named the station's Assistant GM to work with Jack Palvino, the GM and part owner."
Thanks for the background, Larry...nice to know the full details.
Guess my reaction as a listener/observer, was that 'VOR's sound stirred memories of what we'd been doing at WHEN in '73 and '74 under John Patton and Jim Ashbery--what they had in common other than a general feel and concept was that they were both fun to listen to (and I'd venture a guess 'VOR was also a fun place to work, just as WHEN was back in the day). Wish we had more stations like them today.
Think it's possible now to take a station and recreate that feeling for today's listeners?
Can we afford not to try?
FUN?
FUN? Have you BEEN in a radio station lately? "Bunker mentality" is a lot more evident than "fun". And corporate is convinced that they can "afford not to try".
Bob1370 said:
FUN? Have you BEEN in a radio station lately? "Bunker mentality" is a lot more evident than "fun". And corporate is convinced that they can "afford not to try".
Bob1370 said:
John Patton and my old college friend, Jim Ashbery, were among the very best at what they did. One only need look at Jim's resume to realize just how good he was - WNBF-Binghamton, WHEN-Syracuse, WFLA-Tampa, WCCO-Minneapolis, WSB-Atlanta among others - all legendary in their individual markets. Patton programmed some great stations as well.
Bob, of course it's possible. But very unlikely, as we both realize, in today's radio climate and the current economy. Perhaps if some of these mega-corps collapse soon enough, as many are predicting, and the business returns to individual owners (with plenty of money) - there's a chance!. A slim chance as we know since the clock is ticking. Unfortunately, the business has done little in the last 20 years to bring new listeners into the fold - add to that the ipod, the internet, video games and a paucity of good music being produced and you see the problem.
Today, a station of this type would only entertain those who are older and grew up listening to the radio as folks our age did. Maybe the answer, as some have suggested, is to turn the radio business as a "blank canvas" over to some of the 18-30 year olds and see what they come up with. It worked for guys like
Todd Storz, Gordon McClendon, Bill Drake, Tom Donahue and others years ago.
While I'd like to share your optimism, I'm just not willing to hold my breath until it happens.
Radknowski said:
Thanks for the kind words, Mike. Much appreciated!
qman said:You should know Sherlock that you were one of the people influential in getting me interested in this business. I used to listen to you, Jack Palvino, Matt Rinaldi, Ferdinand J & others.
Joe, the way the business is today, I don't know whether to say thank you or apologize. I hope you've had an enjoyable ride!
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