Rally the Troops and Mobilize the Artillery

[JohnnyMorganWXJX]

Not to cause a ruckus, but over on the Oldies board David Eduardo, the knowledgable and successful LA and South America oldies and Spanish language PD and owner has declared war on us Clevelanders. (He was born and grew up here--and worked at WCUY/WJMO in the early 60s.)

David:

"What I _really_ want to know is why anyone, having freedom of choice, would live in the Cleveland area..."

<a target="_blank" href=http://www.radio-info.com/mods/board?Post=557784&Board=oldies>http://www.radio-info.com/mods/board?Post=557784&Board=oldies</a>

"Cleveland, with negative population growth and stagnant CSI is not exactly where the other 99.4% of America wants to move."

"It has not roced since Alan Freed left town for NY."

"Yeah, cities where the rivers catch fire have limited appeal."

<a target="_blank" href=http://www.radio-info.com/mods/board?Post=557920&Board=oldies>http://www.radio-info.com/mods/board?Post=557920&Board=oldies</a>


Are we gonna stand for this crap? HELL NO! Let's show that wussy LA guy what "lake effect" really means.

 

[bigwoody]

> Not to cause a ruckus, but over on the Oldies board David
> Eduardo, the knowledgable and successful LA and South
> America oldies and Spanish language PD and owner has
> declared war on us Clevelanders. (He was born and grew up
> here--and worked at WCUY/WJMO in the early 60s.)
>
> David:
>
> "What I _really_ want to know is why anyone, having freedom
> of choice, would live in the Cleveland area..."
>
h> ttp://www.radio-info.com/mods/board?Post=557784&Board=oldies
>
>
> "Cleveland, with negative population growth and stagnant CSI
> is not exactly where the other 99.4% of America wants to
> move."
>
> "It has not roced since Alan Freed left town for NY."
>
> "Yeah, cities where the rivers catch fire have limited
> appeal."
>
h> ttp://www.radio-info.com/mods/board?Post=557920&Board=oldies
>
>
>
> Are we gonna stand for this crap? HELL NO! Let's show that
> wussy LA guy what "lake effect" really means.
>

I went after him <P ID="signature">______________
Everyone is entitled to my opinion.</P>

 

[network]

> "Yeah, cities where the rivers catch fire have limited
> appeal."

So the best he can bring is a 30-plus year-old joke that has been worn out more than a prostitute?

 

[HHH]

>
> "What I _really_ want to know is why anyone, having freedom
> of choice, would live in the Cleveland area..."

A few reasons:

Lifestyle is nice. Cost of living is managable, and the metro area has some very pretty spots, including a major lakeshore, the lake erie islands, a beautiful metropark system completely surrounding the city, many nice restaurants, some cool nightspots, four or five interesting college radio stations, The Cleveland Orchestra (plus the new, world-class Severence Hall), major sports teams, two alternative weeklys (Free Times and Scene), one of the biggest and most extensive libraries in the country (CPL), one of the most prestigious technology schools in the country (CWRU), a Top 25 rated, world-class business school (Weatherhead), etc etc.


>
> "Cleveland, with negative population growth and stagnant CSI
> is not exactly where the other 99.4% of America wants to
> move."

So what? Like I want to live in LA where it takes 3 hours to drive 15 miles in rush hour? Or New York, SF, Washington, or Boston where you pay $3000 a month for a two bedroom apartment? Ridiculous!

>
> "It has not roced since Alan Freed left town for NY."

Oh brother. Some put-down. How old is this guy, like 17?

>
> "Yeah, cities where the rivers catch fire have limited
> appeal."


When was the last time this guy read the paper?


> Are we gonna stand for this crap? HELL NO! Let's show that
> wussy LA guy what "lake effect" really means.


Oh, who cares? This is just shitck. Ignore this boob, and I'll see you on the boat in Put-In-Bay knockin' back a cold one, lookng at the money in my retirement fund instead of in some landlord's pocket.

 

[JohnnyMorganWXJX]

> Oh, who cares? This is just shitck. Ignore this boob, and
> I'll see you on the boat in Put-In-Bay knockin' back a cold
> one, lookng at the money in my retirement fund instead of in
> some landlord's pocket.
>

Well said, HHH, well said.

PBR me!

 

[techie]

> Not to cause a ruckus, but over on the Oldies board David
> Eduardo, the knowledgable and successful LA and South
> America oldies and Spanish language PD and owner has
> declared war on us Clevelanders. (He was born and grew up
> here--and worked at WCUY/WJMO in the early 60s.)
>
> David:
>
> "What I _really_ want to know is why anyone, having freedom
> of choice, would live in the Cleveland area..."
>
h> ttp://www.radio-info.com/mods/board?Post=557784&Board=oldies
>
>
> "Cleveland, with negative population growth and stagnant CSI
> is not exactly where the other 99.4% of America wants to
> move."
>
> "It has not roced since Alan Freed left town for NY."
>
> "Yeah, cities where the rivers catch fire have limited
> appeal."
>
h> ttp://www.radio-info.com/mods/board?Post=557920&Board=oldies
>
>
>
> Are we gonna stand for this crap? HELL NO! Let's show that
> wussy LA guy what "lake effect" really means.
>


The guy's a prick. I doubt you'll have much luck convincing him of anything.

 

[nate81]

> > Are we gonna stand for this crap? HELL NO! Let's show that
> > wussy LA guy what "lake effect" really means.
> >
>
> I went after him
>

As have I. View my new thread here:

http://www.radio-info.com/mods/board.php?Board=oldies&Post=558822

- nate81
<P ID="signature">______________
Nathan Obral
University Partnership Representative: LCCC Student Senate, Elyria, Ohio

Soon-to-be-webmaster - http://www.lcccradio.com</P>

 

[davideduardo]

>
> The guy's a prick. I doubt you'll have much luck convincing
> him of anything.
>

Do I know you? ;-)

 

[davideduardo]

> > "Yeah, cities where the rivers catch fire have limited
> > appeal."
>
> So the best he can bring is a 30-plus year-old joke that has
> been worn out more than a prostitute?
>

How about the real reality.... much lower radio billing in the market than comparably sized markets like Denvery, Cincy and Sacramento... revenue growth from 2000 through 2009 (real and projected) at a rate less than inflation, and negative population growht projected by Claritas through 2010.

 

[network]

REAL Reality 4 U

> How about the real reality.... much lower radio billing in
> the market than comparably sized markets like Denvery, Cincy
> and Sacramento... revenue growth from 2000 through 2009
> (real and projected) at a rate less than inflation, and
> negative population growht projected by Claritas through
> 2010.

Radio billing? Yawn...who cares?! First you go on trashing the city and making a river burning reference from the sixties and now you're trying to save-face by referring to radio billing?! Excuse me while I get another cup....yawn...of coffee. What radio stations bill in the Cleveland market is irrelevant to its' tax base. Oh wait, one of the biggest billers in this market isn't even located in Cleveland. It's now even more irrelevant.

What's gonna be your next "line of defense"? National radio sales like :30 Radio Shack or Rite Aid ads?

Cleveland is having its' problems and it ain't perfect, but it seems like what's going on in the West Coast continues to get worse. I've been out there and I ain't impressed. I even passed up a gig out there. The furthest west I'll ever go is Vegas.

It's 2005, not 1969. Cities like Cleveland who had a HUGE manufacturing base for decades are in no different situation than us. At least this city was able to save part of it's huge steel making plant.

 

[network]

> A few reasons:
>
> Lifestyle is nice. Cost of living is managable, and the
> metro area has some very pretty spots, including a major
> lakeshore, the lake erie islands, a beautiful metropark
> system completely surrounding the city, many nice
> restaurants, some cool nightspots, four or five interesting
> college radio stations, The Cleveland Orchestra (plus the
> new, world-class Severence Hall), major sports teams, two
> alternative weeklys (Free Times and Scene), one of the
> biggest and most extensive libraries in the country (CPL),
> one of the most prestigious technology schools in the
> country (CWRU), a Top 25 rated, world-class business school
> (Weatherhead), etc etc.

Exactly! Cleveland is having it's difficulties (just look to 601 Lakeside as the reasonS for that problem) and it ain't perfect, but Cleveland has one of the premier cultural districts in the country. As you mentioned, Cleveland Orchestra...the Playhouse Square Theatre district, etc.) Take a walk around Severance Center. Cleveland Clinic where world leaders come for surgery (and IIRC Cleveland Clinic is supposed to be doing the first-ever face transplant in the world). Need we go on?

Plus, a report of some-sort came out earlier this past week stating Cleveland was one of the most livable cities -- in the country. It fell within the top 25, IIRC.

> So what? Like I want to live in LA where it takes 3 hours
> to drive 15 miles in rush hour? Or New York, SF,
> Washington, or Boston where you pay $3000 a month for a two
> bedroom apartment? Ridiculous!

This is Downtown Cleveland's biggest problem, IMO. The going rates for these new condos and apartments in the old factories and warehouses in Downtown (and closely surrounding) -- as spacious and beautiful as they are -- are really, really overpriced. I've looked at quite a few and they are very appealing, but who would want to spend, on average 160k for a condo in downtown Cleveland? Or on average $1,000/month rent on a 1-bedroom loft? Maybe if it was 1990 when there was shopping Downtown like May Company, Higbees, Tower City, Kresges, The Flats was packed from one bank to the other, etc. There's a huge vacancy rate in these buildings right now for a reason. And Steelyard Commons ain't gonna bring those prices down.

 

[bigwoody]

> > > Are we gonna stand for this crap? HELL NO! Let's show
> that
> > > wussy LA guy what "lake effect" really means.
> > >
> >
> > I went after him
> >
>
> As have I. View my new thread here:
>
http:> //www.radio-info.com/mods/board.php?Board=oldies&Post=558822
>
>
> - nate81
>

Wow! Very well written. I'm impressed! I think I'm older (38) than you, yet I can't remember half of what you wrote, lol!<P ID="signature">______________
Everyone is entitled to my opinion.</P>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: REAL Reality 4 U

> > How about the real reality.... much lower radio billing in
>
> > the market than comparably sized markets like Denvery,
> Cincy
> > and Sacramento... revenue growth from 2000 through 2009
> > (real and projected) at a rate less than inflation, and
> > negative population growht projected by Claritas through
> > 2010.
>
> Radio billing? Yawn...who cares?!

Well, I was slammed for not being more radio-specific, for one.

Radio billing in a market is an indication of the strength of the market and its desirability by advertisers. When smaller Cincy outbills Cleveland by $10 million, and Sacramento by $20 million (not ot mention same-size Denver by $75 million), it says something about both the local radio environment and the market.

Specifically, in radio, it says that the pay scales and operations are going to run at a lower level than other markets of the same size since there are less fish biting.

> First you go on trashing
> the city and making a river burning reference from the
> sixties and now you're trying to save-face by referring to
> radio billing?!

The "fire on the river" always gets attention. That's why I used it. It's sort of like focusing on the couple of decades when The Tribe could not get out of the cellar...

> Excuse me while I get another
> cup....yawn...of coffee. What radio stations bill in the
> Cleveland market is irrelevant to its' tax base.

Actually, several of the issues are inter-related. For, example, zero population growth means that property is has no demand surplus, so values do not escalate and the tax base does not increase, while inflation raises the costs for ever town from Lorain to Chardon.

Radio billing is symptomatic... in fact, advertising activity is a true economic indicator... of the vigor of the local economy.

> Oh wait,
> one of the biggest billers in this market isn't even located
> in Cleveland. It's now even more irrelevant.

Market billing from BIA include stations that are "above the line" in the book, irrespective of COL.

If you are talking about WQMX, it would, were its revenue base 100% Cleveland, only be the 13th biller in the market.
>
> What's gonna be your next "line of defense"? National radio
> sales like :30 Radio Shack or Rite Aid ads?

Cleveland ranks under #30 in national billing... yet another indicator that the market is, for some reason, ignored on a lot of national campaigns.
>
> Cleveland is having its' problems and it ain't perfect, but
> it seems like what's going on in the West Coast continues to
> get worse.

What would that be that "is going on?" You mean growth in incomes, property values and, since this is a raido board, radio revenues (and, similarly, radio salaries)?

> It's 2005, not 1969. Cities like Cleveland who had a HUGE
> manufacturing base for decades are in no different situation
> than us. At least this city was able to save part of it's
> huge steel making plant.

It's a problem that covers a huge swatch of the Northeast, form western Massachussets through areas like Utica, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Erie, and ending in Toledo and the Detroit / Flint corredor. Cleveland is not alone, but certainly you can see how this effects the radio environment.
>

 

[bigwoody]

Re: REAL Reality 4 U

> > > How about the real reality.... much lower radio billing
> in
> >
> > > the market than comparably sized markets like Denvery,
> > Cincy
> > > and Sacramento... revenue growth from 2000 through 2009
> > > (real and projected) at a rate less than inflation, and
> > > negative population growht projected by Claritas through
>
> > > 2010.
> >
> > Radio billing? Yawn...who cares?!
>
> Well, I was slammed for not being more radio-specific, for
> one.
>
> Radio billing in a market is an indication of the strength
> of the market and its desirability by advertisers. When
> smaller Cincy outbills Cleveland by $10 million, and
> Sacramento by $20 million (not ot mention same-size Denver
> by $75 million), it says something about both the local
> radio environment and the market.
>
>

"Smaller Cincy".... Cincy is market 26, Cleveland is 25. Cincy will surpass Cleveland soon.

Other than that...good points. The "North" is losing jobs left and right, mostly tech. The "South" is growing like wildfire. No unions, a good thing IMHO. Unions had their day. With that said I believe in a fair wage, but the unions have taken it too far. Having lived in Raleigh-Durham for five years (00-04) I can say it's booming! It'a a 100 million plus retail market. On average over 5,000 people A MONTH move to the "Triangle" (Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill). It's predominately tech/computer/bio med/health/communication fields. I've never seen a building boom like the Triangle. They build $250k homes like crazy, with no contracts. People just show up and buy them. Not to mention a great climate (4 seasons but less harsh winters than the North), a 2 hour drive to the ocean. Three hours to Myrtle Beach. Cary NC, a suburb of 100k plus to Raleigh, was voted the #1 place to live on the entire East Coast. Impressive. Cary is like a Rockwell painting come to life. Radio in Raleigh...as homogenized as most other places. Worse I think though since it's the "south". Radio is not aggressive. The rock stations there pale next to even those in Toledo.


<P ID="signature">______________
Everyone is entitled to my opinion.</P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by bigwoody on 10/08/05 07:14 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: REAL Reality 4 U

> > > > How about the real reality.... much lower radio
> billing
> > in
> > >
> > > > the market than comparably sized markets like Denvery,
>
> "Smaller Cincy".... Cincy is market 26, Cleveland is 25.
> Cincy will surpass Cleveland soon.

Nit picking, I guess. But Cincy, ranked _outside_ the top 25 actually bills better. There are some national advertising break points at top 0, 10, 25, 50, 100, etc. But that is a slippery slope, as some of the embeded or fringe makrkets (Nassau-Suffolk or Riverside-San Berdoo) are often not counted as they are mostly served from the core market.
>
> Other than that...good points. The "North" is losing jobs
> left and right, mostly tech. The "South" is growing like
> wildfire. No unions, a good thing IMHO. Unions had their
> day. With that said I believe in a fair wage, but the unions
> have taken it too far. Having lived in Raleigh-Durham for
> five years (00-04) I can say it's booming! It'a a 100
> million plus retail market. On average over 5,000 people A
> MONTH move to the "Triangle" (Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill).

I hears a demographer call this the "Dakota Syndrome." The more attractive, better climate areas are attracting the most upwardly mobile urban professionals, as well as a huge blue collar group to provide workers to the building trades and service and retail industries. The Dakotas have actual growth in 45+ as a percentage of population, yet a large part of the youth in those two states is leaving. The end result is localized stagnation, and economies that do not keep up with the rate of inflation insofar as growth.

> It's predominately tech/computer/bio
> med/health/communication fields. I've never seen a building
> boom like the Triangle. They build $250k homes like crazy,
> with no contracts. People just show up and buy them. Not to
> mention a great climate (4 seasons but less harsh winters
> than the North), a 2 hour drive to the ocean. Three hours to
> Myrtle Beach. Cary NC, a suburb of 100k plus to Raleigh, was
> voted the #1 place to live on the entire East Coast.
> Impressive. Cary is like a Rockwell painting come to life.
> Radio in Raleigh...as homogenized as most other places.
> Worse I think though since it's the "south". Radio is not
> aggressive. The rock stations there pale next to even those
> in Toledo.
>

That is kind of like the rock scene in many sunbelt growth markets. It seems that the combination of liefestyle, differing ehtnicity mix and, maybe, the absence of those non-stop overcast days of winter, makes for a different sound.

 

[nate81]

> > > > Are we gonna stand for this crap? HELL NO! Let's
> show
> > that
> > > > wussy LA guy what "lake effect" really means.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I went after him
> > >
> >
> > As have I. View my new thread here:
> >
> http://www.radio-info.com/mods/board.php?Board=oldies&Post=558822
>
> >
> >
> > - nate81
> >
>
> Wow! Very well written. I'm impressed! I think I'm older
> (38) than you, yet I can't remember half of what you wrote,
> lol!
>

Thanks, Chuck.

Yes, I am only 23 years young. (Scary, huh?) But it's always fun to do!

;D

- nate81
<P ID="signature">______________
Nathan Obral
University Partnership Representative: LCCC Student Senate, Elyria, Ohio

Soon-to-be-webmaster - http://www.lcccradio.com</P>

 

[KlunkLetter]

> Not to cause a ruckus, but over on the Oldies board David
> Eduardo, the knowledgable and successful LA and South
> America oldies and Spanish language PD and owner has
> declared war on us Clevelanders. (He was born and grew up
> here--and worked at WCUY/WJMO in the early 60s.)
>
> David:
>
> "What I _really_ want to know is why anyone, having freedom
> of choice, would live in the Cleveland area..."
>
h> ttp://www.radio-info.com/mods/board?Post=557784&Board=oldies
>
>
> "Cleveland, with negative population growth and stagnant CSI
> is not exactly where the other 99.4% of America wants to
> move."
>
> "It has not roced since Alan Freed left town for NY."
>
> "Yeah, cities where the rivers catch fire have limited
> appeal."
>
h> ttp://www.radio-info.com/mods/board?Post=557920&Board=oldies
>
>
>
> Are we gonna stand for this crap? HELL NO! Let's show that
> wussy LA guy what "lake effect" really means.
>
The times I have been in Cleveland recently have been very pleasant. Granted I haven't spent much time there, but I have had only good experiences. The R&R Museumn is fantastic along with Jacob's Field (I apologize, I'm a White Sox fan!).

BTW, I live in LaPorte County, IN, which is just south of Lake Michigan. David
has had the heat go to his head. He needs to spend more time dealing with midwest winters to bring him back to reality

 

[network]

Re: REAL Reality 4 U

> Well, I was slammed for not being more radio-specific, for
> one.

Well I was responding to your "blanket statements" regarding Cleveland , which were linked by JM who created this thread. I can careless about radio billing in this market. What a radio station bills is not going to pull this city out of a recession. So if all one wants to talk about is billing...hey, have fun discussing that while you're watching paint dry.

> The "fire on the river" always gets attention. That's why I
> used it.

By who? Someone who hasn't known what the hell they're talking about regarding this city since about 1992? Even then that joke was prehistoric given the quality of the Cuyahoga today. The Cuyahoga is a huge seasonal attraction (and it would be even more if the city wasn't hell bent on making sure the Flats became the ghost town it is today).

> Actually, several of the issues are inter-related. For,
> example, zero population growth means that property is has
> no demand surplus, so values do not escalate and the tax
> base does not increase, while inflation raises the costs for
> ever town from Lorain to Chardon.

Anyone who's been paying attention knows this. Population in Cleveland will continue to drop while the suburbs are building out (Avon and Medina particularly). That is what is keeping this region population somewhat flat. Cities that barely had anyone even a decade ago are becoming the "new place" to live and they are building up something drastic. Too bad people who make decisions in this city think that building these expensive condos and apartments with nothing to bring them in is going to do it. Cleveland's problem is lack of a long-term REALISTIC plan. They're more worried about a Convention Center.

> Radio billing is symptomatic... in fact, advertising
> activity is a true economic indicator... of the vigor of the
> local economy.

This is exactly the kind of response you get from someone who hasn't been here since ________. Again, radio advertising is NOT going to pull this city from its' recession. Period.

> What would that be that "is going on?" You mean growth in
> incomes, property values and, since this is a raido board,
> radio revenues (and, similarly, radio salaries)?

So you West Coast folk have become immune to the problems out there? What's the cost of living, on average, out there? Again, my response was your general statement you made about Cleveland. You make a statement like that and you've opened the flood gates.

Cleveland ain't perfect, but I'll defend it -- somewhat LOL. Heck, even Akron has got it going on more than Cleveland. Yeah, I did see someone take potshots at Akron, but obviously he's blind or hasn't bothered to leave his house since 1998. Even the long-timers in Akron should be able to notice significant changes. Akron has lost some significant manufacturing jobs, too. Unlike Cleveland, Akron was able to turn their Downtown around from a mile of boarded up/abandoned buildings between Exchange and Market, into a great mix of sporting/entertainment/nightlife and office in just a matter of a few years.

When I look on the news and see the destruction going on in other parts of the country, almost regularly every year, I'll take shoveling several feet of snow a year over having to run like hell for another state a few times a year because of a hurricane or worrying about a huge mountain of mud or a big crack destroying my property.

> It's a problem that covers a huge swatch of the Northeast,
> form western Massachussets through areas like Utica,
> Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Erie, and ending in Toledo and
> the Detroit / Flint corredor. Cleveland is not alone, but
> certainly you can see how this effects the radio
> environment.

Every Metropolitan city in the US has its' problems. Obviously Cleveland, along with the cities you mentioned are above the norm because of the obvious. It ain't gonna improve overnight.

Before declaring open season with such a vague "slam" at a city you're not that familiar with anymore, know what your talking about. Reciting stats you read here and there doesn't mean anything. They all have their spin to them.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: REAL Reality 4 U

>
> > Actually, several of the issues are inter-related. For,
> > example, zero population growth means that property is has
>
> > no demand surplus, so values do not escalate and the tax
> > base does not increase, while inflation raises the costs
> for
> > ever town from Lorain to Chardon.
>
> Anyone who's been paying attention knows this. Population
> in Cleveland will continue to drop while the suburbs are
> building out (Avon and Medina particularly).

Oddly, this is _supposed_ to be a radio forum (said toung in cheek as I was the one who originally got "off" radio) and radio fols are generally savvy about referring to the whole market (ususally the OMB definition of MSA) rather than the central city the market built up about.

The Cleveland MSA or Arbitron MSA has been stagnant or in slight decline, and projections through the end of the decade indicate a tiny total population decline for the Metro. The fates of individual towns is irrelevant when one compares metros.

> That is what
> is keeping this region population somewhat flat. Cities
> that barely had anyone even a decade ago are becoming the
> "new place" to live and they are building up something
> drastic. Too bad people who make decisions in this city
> think that building these expensive condos and apartments
> with nothing to bring them in is going to do it.
> Cleveland's problem is lack of a long-term REALISTIC plan.
> They're more worried about a Convention Center.

The reason areas and cities look for growth is the same one I mentioned earlier... tax revenue base. You build a convention center, and the tax base for business increases. Further, the hotel taxes, etc., all inccrease, giving a city or area more revenue, often more than needed to pay off the bonds used to construct the facility.

To radio, it is all about billing. To cities, it is all about what can be taxed.
>
> > Radio billing is symptomatic... in fact, advertising
> > activity is a true economic indicator... of the vigor of
> the
> > local economy.
>
> This is exactly the kind of response you get from someone
> who hasn't been here since ________. Again, radio
> advertising is NOT going to pull this city from its'
> recession. Period.

You are missing the point that advertising, radio and otherwise, is an economic indicator. There are a number of activities that indicate economic activity, confidence, etc. Advertising is ofent part of these indicators. By the way, it is generalized: TV in the cleveland DMA underindexes the population in revenue, as does the Plain Dealer.
>
> > What would that be that "is going on?" You mean growth in
> > incomes, property values and, since this is a raido board,
>
> > radio revenues (and, similarly, radio salaries)?
>
> So you West Coast folk have become immune to the problems
> out there?

The fact that I live, for a few years, in LA, means that is where the better income opportunities are, not that I am a "west coast person." Based on where I have live the longest and have the most family, I guess I am Puerto Rican... with Cleveland a close second.

That said, people on the western coast are not really that different than those elsewhere. Take out the 0.01% who are movie stars or professional kooks or whatever, and foks are the same.

> What's the cost of living, on average, out
> there?

Except for housing in three metros, LA, SD and San Francisco, it's not all that different.

>
> Before declaring open season with such a vague "slam" at a
> city you're not that familiar with anymore, know what your
> talking about. Reciting stats you read here and there
> doesn't mean anything. They all have their spin to them.

I actually spend time in Cleveland, as there are 4 or 5 generations of family history there. It's just not a place I would want to stay in... which is a matter of choice based on seeing much more of the world and comparing. Interestingly, the part of the family that is still there is very active with things like the art museum, etc.
>