Rant... Bad sounding songs with AGC pumping!

[dannyscott101]

It's bad enough when mastering engineers begin slamming audio to the wall with multiband and brick-wall CD releases, but now it seems to be sometimes 'cool' to process songs with that crappy wideband AGC pumping sound.

I just noticed it on Snow Patrol's "Just Say Yes", just added to our rotation. Just playing it clean out of the voice tracker system, it sounds like it's being forced through an old volumax!

The worst recent example of this is David Guetta's "Sexy Chick" (which we do not play) which has bass notes intentionally ducking the vocals with brute force!

Here we are with Bob, Frank, Leif and others designing their latest and best products to provide "cleaner" FM audio, and the industry continues to try to crap it up some more! It's like trying to redesign the car while they keep changing the road surface in front of it.

I know these examples are supposed to be intentional for 'artistic' reasons, but come on...

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

The Producer that began all that "wall of sound" thing was Phil Spector, now going on 50 years ago. For musical purists, it is probably fitting that he was finally convicted of murder.

 

[dannyscott101]

The Producer that began all that "wall of sound" thing was Phil Spector, now going on 50 years ago. For musical purists, it is probably fitting that he was finally convicted of murder.

"Wall of sound" was somewhat innovative... This is "Wall of crap"!

 

[Sgeirk]

Actually, there are a lot of producers that use old Volumaxes and Sta-Levels, etc to get a particular slammed sound. Either way, what you complain about is nothing new, it sucks...and it has been getting notably worse as time goes on.

It is to the point where labels really need to provide radio a less 'hot' version for airplay...but since they're trying to assess additional fees out of radio stations that play music, it's obvious they see no value in radio airplay.

Off subject, but if the performance fees come to pass, it will be the final nail in the coffin for major labels as we know it...their ability to mass market and promote music will die. The tide will turn and their business model will be further diminished...from the OTHER end.

 

[dannyscott101]

Off subject, but if the performance fees come to pass, it will be the final nail in the coffin for major labels as we know it...their ability to mass market and promote music will die. The tide will turn and their business model will be further diminished...from the OTHER end.

You're correct... the industry should be paying us performance fees for giving value to their product!

 

[boiseengineer]

"Sexy Chick" sounds like it was processed with the "Hard Limiter" in Audition on a home PC.
Morons.

 

[jesseg]

Actually... what's being done is the side-chain of the compression is being fed audio with really loud (or ONLY) kick drums, so that it's only compressing (a LOT) on the kick drums.

This leads back to J Dilla who's the first producer to get credit with using this idea, rest his soul. If you go back and listen to J Dilla's productions, it's also used MUCH more thoughtfully than some of this new stuff. For starters -A- he wasn't compressing nearly as much and -B- he wasn't compressing everything. Some stuff he had the brains to keep off of that bus... like the vocals.

 

[rrsounds]

Actually... what's being done is the side-chain of the compression is being fed audio with really loud (or ONLY) kick drums, so that it's only compressing (a LOT) on the kick drums.

This leads back to J Dilla who's the first producer to get credit with using this idea, rest his soul. If you go back and listen to J Dilla's productions, it's also used MUCH more thoughtfully than some of this new stuff. For starters -A- he wasn't compressing nearly as much and -B- he wasn't compressing everything. Some stuff he had the brains to keep off of that bus... like the vocals.

J Dilla, the first producer to popularize this effect? Hah!

Listen carefully to the cymbals on the Beatles' "She Said, She Said" recorded in 1966.
Ducking from the bass drum is very apparent!! The effect is on Ringo's whole drum kit, but really noticeable on the cymbals, and especially just before the fade (2:18). Beauty!

Kudos go to producer George Martin, skillfully engineered by Geoff Emerick.

And that was 44 years ago, ladies and gentlemen! ;D (Eight years before J Dilla was even born!)

Kind Regards,
David

 

[nd2023]

I prefer hearing 'Sexy Chick' on a station that heavily processes the music than unprocessed.

 

[dannyscott101]

I prefer hearing 'Sexy Chick' on a station that heavily processes the music than unprocessed.

Heavy multiband processing might SLIGHTLY "undo" this effect to make it more listenable.

Many songs used SANE amounts of wideband-style compression for effect. "Desire" by U2 had a very hard 'attack' sound that was actually tamed by most radio processing of the era.

 

[jesseg]

J Dilla, the first producer to popularize this effect? Hah!

Listen carefully to the cymbals on the Beatles' "She Said, She Said" recorded in 1966.
Ducking from the bass drum is very apparent!! The effect is on Ringo's whole drum kit, but really noticeable on the cymbals, and especially just before the fade (2:18). Beauty!

That's broadband compression same as J Dilla, but not using a separate side-chain specifically for the purpose of selective ducking. Have you ever heard J Dilla?

 

[dannyscott101]

Another song I remember from just before the 'hypercompression era' to have a ducking effect was "Show Me Love" by Robin S.
(not to be confused with the later "Show Me Love" by Robyn)

 

[speakerman]

And to think...they used to stick knitting needles in guitar amp speakers to get a fuzz effect (before they discovered overdriven germanium transistors). Fads.

 

[rrsounds]

J Dilla, the first producer to popularize this effect? Hah!

Listen carefully to the cymbals on the Beatles' "She Said, She Said" recorded in 1966.
Ducking from the bass drum is very apparent!! The effect is on Ringo's whole drum kit, but really noticeable on the cymbals, and especially just before the fade (2:18). Beauty!

That's broadband compression same as J Dilla, but not using a separate side-chain specifically for the purpose of selective ducking. Have you ever heard J Dilla?

Have you ever read "Recording the Beatles"?

Kind Regards,
David

 

[rrsounds]

J Dilla, the first producer to popularize this effect? Hah!

Listen carefully to the cymbals on the Beatles' "She Said, She Said" recorded in 1966.
Ducking from the bass drum is very apparent!! The effect is on Ringo's whole drum kit, but really noticeable on the cymbals, and especially just before the fade (2:18). Beauty!

That's broadband compression same as J Dilla, but not using a separate side-chain specifically for the purpose of selective ducking. Have you ever heard J Dilla?

Have you ever read "Recording the Beatles"?

Kind Regards,
David

Specifically, page 145, in describing the Fairchild 660 limiter, which came into use at EMI (Abbey Road) 24 January 1964.

"The Control input ("sidechain input") allowed an external signal to control the action of the unit. Normally a Fairchild responds to the audio signal fed through it. With a Control Input plugged in, external signals could "process" the original sound being fed through the 660, making it rise and fall in relation to the external signal level."

Then follows a description of how, for example, the feature had been used in 1969's "Octopuses Garden" on the background voices during the instrumental break.
This NOT some recent development!

Kind Regards,
David

 

[jesseg]

I stand corrected. Then I guess what I should reword my comment as... is that J Dilla is credited with popularizing this technique among today's producers that are using it.

It's not a horrible technique, if it's not abused. Most people don't have a clue how just plain wrong it sounds when it's abused. The ones that do have a clue (charting producers i mean), but do it anyways, well... those are the people I would love to hear their take on it.

 

[rorban]

The record industry needs to research this processing the same way that the broadcast industry has been doing for at least four decades. Judging from declining music sales, *something* that they are doing isn't working. My first guesses would be a combination of distortion and lack of dynamics is reducing the amount of enjoyment that great songs, performers, and arrangements can provide listeners. But I could be wrong.

Bob Orban

 

[vxo]

ＬＯＵＤＮＥＳＳ∿∿∿∿∿凸(･`Д･´o)⊓⊔⊓⊔⊓⊔⊓⊔ＷＡＲ

I don't like the AGC pumping at all. I suspect a lot of it is a result of mastering engineers trying to put their own volume boost on top of the studio recordings. In some cases, it's so strong that the audio is almost obliterated after each beat.

It's always surreal to watch the Optimod try to figure out what to do with this... Our trusty old Optimod-FM 2200 actually manages to make mixes that are squashed to death by a midrange/high frequency blast on each beat listenable, even if they sound terrible on the studio monitors. The effect of excessive AGC pumping makes me feel sick, like my ears are broken and stuck in a whirlpool of suck.

 

[dannyscott101]

The record industry needs to research this processing the same way that the broadcast industry has been doing for at least four decades. Judging from declining music sales, *something* that they are doing isn't working. My first guesses would be a combination of distortion and lack of dynamics is reducing the amount of enjoyment that great songs, performers, and arrangements can provide listeners. But I could be wrong.

Bob Orban

I believe this could only happen if major-market programmers said "enough is enough!", and started REFUSING to add songs in rotation due to "unacceptable" levels of clipping distortion. This would at the very least, force producers to release a milder 'radio mix', something suggested in the Bob Orban/Frank Foti writing of almost ten years ago.

All of the songs we now get here at the station look like a FAT BRICK when displayed on a wave program... Of course, they've been "normalized" for broadcast by being lowered about 8db, making it look like a smaller brick.

I just listened to part of the Miley Cirus track "When I Look at You" through the voice-tracker system. Our production monitors aren't exactly perfect, but by the time it's near the end of the song it honestly sounds like it's been pushed through an old worn-out Volumax!

What good is a new 8600 or O-11 if all the music keeps getting crappier? (other than to not destroy some more for broadcast purposes?)

 

[jesseg]

What good is a new 8600 or O-11 if all the music keeps getting crappier? (other than to not destroy some more for broadcast purposes?)

Exactly what you just said. The songs that sound great will still sound great, and the people that are putting out abusive audio will stick out like sore thumbs.