"Rapper's Delight"

[johnbasalla]

In the Teena Marie commemorative thread, "Rapper's Delight" by The Sugarhill Gang is talked about. I decided to post this as a new topic so as not to dilute the tributes and memories of Teena Marie.

If you got one of the 7" singles of "Rapper's Delight", look at the label and you'll see that "Rapper's Delight" is actually the B-side! Sylvia Robinson/Sugarhill Records may not have fully realized how truly groundbreaking "Rapper's Delight" was, nor how mass-appeal popular it would become. They may have thought it mainly as something for club play. The A-side of the "45" is a run-of-the-mill mellow "Soul" song called "Here I Am". Also of note, the single has a 1980 copyright and patent date on it. The composition of "Rapper's Delight" is credited to B. Edwards and N. Rodgers who were the driving forces behind the Disco group Chic. So, only the music received writer's credit. Now, the 12" single is completely different. The copyright and patent date is 1979. The composing of "Rapper's Delight" is credited to S. Robinson (That's Sylvia), along with people who I assume are The Sugarhill Gang ... H. Jackson, M. Wright, G. O'Brien. Lastly, the original 12" sngle has the 15 minute version on Side A and a shorter 6:30 on the B-side. A 2006 article about "Rapper's Delight in Vanity Fair indicates that threat of litigation from Bernard Edwards and Niles Rodgers lead to later pressings being credited to the Chic guys, so I presume later 12" singles would be the same. The article emphatically claims that Sylvia Robinson knew she had something hot on her hands in "Rapper's Delight", but if that was truly the case, why does the 7" single put "Rapper's Delight" on the B-side. Me-thinks there may have been some fudging of true history going on here to make herself look more prophetic.

 

[Starbucks]

Sugarhill Records was sued for Plagiarism after the song was released. But know doubt it was copied from "Good Times" but before in today's world..... it would be called a sample. The first pressings credited to Sylvia is worth 35.00 a mint copy with cover back in the late 90's. I'm not aware that it resulted into a second pressing whether it's Vinyl or a CD, but it could probably up the 1st pressings price worth.

 

[Jay F]

I can remember hearing it as a current and having full appreciation for how groundbreaking it was. One of the rare times in my life where I heard a song that was so different that it gave me the sense that I was listening to a musical revolution taking place.

It seems everything Sylvia was involved with was groundbreaking...and over a long time period. "Love Is Strange" is one of my favorite 50s songs. The guitar in that song seems so ahead of it's time to me. "Pillow Talk" was very sexual sounding for it's time period. Yet it wasn't crude, just over the top sexy.

 

[firepoint525]

If you got one of the 7" singles of "Rapper's Delight", look at the label and you'll see that "Rapper's Delight" is actually the B-side! Sylvia Robinson/Sugarhill Records may not have fully realized how truly groundbreaking "Rapper's Delight" was, nor how mass-appeal popular it would become. They may have thought it mainly as something for club play. The A-side of the "45" is a run-of-the-mill mellow "Soul" song called "Here I Am". Also of note, the single has a 1980 copyright and patent date on it. The composition of "Rapper's Delight" is credited to B. Edwards and N. Rodgers who were the driving forces behind the Disco group Chic. So, only the music received writer's credit. Now, the 12" single is completely different. The copyright and patent date is 1979. The composing of "Rapper's Delight" is credited to S. Robinson (That's Sylvia), along with people who I assume are The Sugarhill Gang ... H. Jackson, M. Wright, G. O'Brien. Lastly, the original 12" sngle has the 15 minute version on Side A and a shorter 6:30 on the B-side. A 2006 article about "Rapper's Delight in Vanity Fair indicates that threat of litigation from Bernard Edwards and Niles Rodgers lead to later pressings being credited to the Chic guys, so I presume later 12" singles would be the same. The article emphatically claims that Sylvia Robinson knew she had something hot on her hands in "Rapper's Delight", but if that was truly the case, why does the 7" single put "Rapper's Delight" on the B-side. Me-thinks there may have been some fudging of true history going on here to make herself look more prophetic.

The single referenced here must have featured a reissue of "Rapper's Delight" as the b-side. "Rapper's Delight" hit the top 40 for the week ending January 5, 1980. No way that that single could have shared vinyl with a song having a 1980 copyright.

 

[johnbasalla]

Both songs have 1980 copyright dates on the 7" disc. Maybe the change over of writing credit from S. Robinson...et al to B. Edwards/N. Rogers lead to the copyright date change. The discs I have are not re-issues. I got them when the songs were new. Paid $3.99 for the 12" single at a Peaches store (price tag still on it), and the 7" single was from a radio station, although there is no "promotional copy" stamp on it. There have been a number of other cases over the years where a B-side actually became the hit side. Sometimes later pressings would put the former B-side as the new A-side, other times not.

 

[firepoint525]

Both songs have 1980 copyright dates on the 7" disc. Maybe the change over of writing credit from S. Robinson...et al to B. Edwards/N. Rogers lead to the copyright date change. The discs I have are not re-issues. I got them when the songs were new. Paid $3.99 for the 12" single at a Peaches store (price tag still on it), and the 7" single was from a radio station, although there is no "promotional copy" stamp on it. There have been a number of other cases over the years where a B-side actually became the hit side. Sometimes later pressings would put the former B-side as the new A-side, other times not.

I would think that since the 45 was released in 1979, that it would have a 1979 copyright. It would have had to be released in 1979 (thus also copyrighted in 1979) in order to be on the charts (and into the top 40, no less!) by the first week of January 1980.

 

[johnbasalla]

The 12" single with S. Robinson and the guys from the Gang as composers has a 1979 date on it. The 7" single, with Edwards/Rogers as the composers has a 1980 date on it. Seems to me that the change to the Chic-guys as the composers lead to... or maybe even, necessitated the change. So, assuming that the 7" did originally come out in 1979, then there should be copies out there with a 1979 copyright date on it, and S. Robinson and the Sugarhill Gang members listed as composers, (I presume).

 

[firepoint525]

The 12" single with S. Robinson and the guys from the Gang as composers has a 1979 date on it. The 7" single, with Edwards/Rogers as the composers has a 1980 date on it. Seems to me that the change to the Chic-guys as the composers lead to... or maybe even, necessitated the change. So, assuming that the 7" did originally come out in 1979, then there should be copies out there with a 1979 copyright date on it, and S. Robinson and the Sugarhill Gang members listed as composers, (I presume).

That might begin to explain it right there. What you have might be considered a collector's item. After all, the original release (on Sugar Hill records, catalog #542) wasn't that big of a hit to begin with, only reaching #36 in January of 1980. It's possible that Rodgers and Edwards might have sued over not getting songwriting credit, royalties, etc. I'm guessing that this was one of the first records to "sample" a previously released recording. I'm still not sure why an amended songwriting credit would necessitate a copyright change. The song was already out there, and should have been protected by its original copyright.

I'm reminded of a similar situation involving the Beatles. The Beatles Anthology TV special aired in November 1995, so the special had a 1995 copyright. The second night of the special featured the first airing of "Real Love," which wouldn't become a single until March 1996, coinciding with the release of Anthology 2, yet the song had a 1996 copyright, despite originally coming out in 1995.

 

[hornet61]

Rappers Delight was also a DJ's delight.....It was so,hot and revolutionary, you could play it 8 times in one night and pack the floor, some say it wasn't the first rap record (james Brown claims he was rapping back in the late 60's early 70's, but that is a literal definition).
Rapping as an entity, has to be credited to Rappers Delight, chronologically, a band callled "the fatback Band" had a b-side single "King Tim II" (later released as a 12 " extended single , thanks to the expolsion of Rappers D.) that might predate Rappers delight by a few months.And there may be more recordings that pre-date Rap Delight, but they were inconsequential.
But, "Rappers Delight" was created in 1978 in rough form and released in 1979. I first crossed paths with Rappers Delight DJ'ing at a Black club, a girl had a copy (I don't recall if it was a advance/Promo)and asked me to play it, that was around the spring of 79. Involved in the evolution of rappers delight was Debbie Harrie and Bernard Edwards (Chic). I am of the opinion that Rappers D. was inspired by Chic, but, due to the lack of technologyin 1978, the extent of the Sampling of "Good Times", I am not sure.
Given the extent that the Hip-Hop culture has dominated music since that record was released, It is almost, key word, almost, as revolutionary as the advent of Rock N' Roll itself , again almost.
As firepoint pointed out it only charted #36 on the hot 100, but it was #1 around the world in many countries and their charts and, again this record may have led to the way R&b was compiled by Billboard and why we have so many r&B related charts , that originally was one.
Blondie referenced the "Sugarhill gang" on "Rapture" The first (quote) Rap song to reach #1.

"Fab Five Freddie told me everybody's high
DJ's spinnin' are savin' my mind
Flash is fast, Flash is cool
Francois sez fas, Flashe' no do
And you don't stop, sure shot
Go out to the parking lot"

There is alot of cool history behind this record, and of course there is also some history behind Sylvia Robinson and her seductive hit "pillow talk". Glad you all chose to explore this subject some more .....

In a related note "Another One Bites the Dust" by Queen has being accused of sampling "Good Times By Chic, also.

 

[Starbucks]

Alot of people probably might have not enough given due pre-credit to Kool and The Gang's 74' tune of "Jungle Boogie". There's a chorus rap that fits with any others of the 90's, but most of the tune was funk. Kool and the Gang's (pre JT Taylor) era was was pretty much the infrastructure of what rap became. Instant Funk also had pre contribution or influences even though they were not rap. Blondie had the second hit rap (or semi rap) record to make the top 40 stations....then came other not so top charters a few years later like "The Breaks" Kurtis Blow, Grand Master Flash, LakeSide etc. they didn't managed to get high airplay except for evenings....but got the awareness out by the time Run DMC and Beastie Boys broke into the Top 40 mainstream. Since then.....history was made by the dumming down of our country. Never to recover again. I declare we are now a hooded sweatshirt, caps on backwards nation.

 

[hornet61]

The dumming down of our kids started with Dr Spock, TV , video games, texting, Rap and metal added to the mix.

Spock took the dicipline out of the formula, TV and video games created mindless Zombies, Texting reversed what little they had learned up to then, and the rap/metal turned them into urbanites we are threatened by. That's a summarized broader picture than just the music, also, rap and metal are both to blame.

 

[johnbasalla]

The Vanity Fair article I referenced previously pointed out that The Sugarhill Gang didn't actually "Sample" - as in steal from the original recording - They did a phenomenal job of re-creating the riff in the studio themselves. Also, based on the audio quality of Sugarhill Records, part of the switchover from All Platinum industries (All Platinum, Stang, Turbo and Vibration labels), included the installation of better recording and pressing equipment (unless they had someone else do the pressings). For those who have a focus on the All Plantinum family of labels, you know the up and down, often so-so quality of the records.

 

[hornet61]

The Vanity Fair article I referenced previously pointed out that The Sugarhill Gang didn't actually "Sample" - as in steal from the original recording - They did a phenomenal job of re-creating the riff in the studio themselves. Also, based on the audio quality of Sugarhill Records, part of the switchover from All Platinum industries (All Platinum, Stang, Turbo and Vibration labels), included the installation of better recording and pressing equipment (unless they had someone else do the pressings). For those who have a focus on the All Plantinum family of labels, you know the up and down, often so-so quality of the records.

They had a bass player,his name escapes me, record the "Good times" riff for about 30minutes or so non-stop, and laid "Rappers Delight" over It, it was so close that even Bernard Edwards of Chic had difficulty telling.. Sampling is loosely defined as borrowing from the original track or reproducing it. As far as stealing , sampling requires licensing, yes.

 

[firepoint525]

They had a bass player,his name escapes me, record the "Good times" riff for about 30minutes or so non-stop, and laid "Rappers Delight" over It, it was so close that even Bernard Edwards of Chic had difficulty telling.. Sampling is loosely defined as borrowing from the original track or reproducing it. As far as stealing , sampling requires licensing, yes.

I seem to recall Vanilla Ice making similar claims about his own "Ice Ice Baby," vis-a-vis "Under Pressure," to wit, that it was not technically a "sample," not necessarily that someone in his band played the exact same riff. ;D

As firepoint pointed out it only charted #36 on the hot 100, but it was #1 around the world in many countries and their charts and, again this record may have led to the way R&b was compiled by Billboard and why we have so many r&B related charts , that originally was one.

Any ideas about how it performed on the r&b charts of its day? I don't have any stats on that, but that would give me some true indication about how well it was truly appreciated back in its day.

 

[johnbasalla]

"Rapper's Delight" by The Sugarhill Gang debuted on the R&B charts on October 13, 1979. It peaked at #4 and spent 19 weeks on the chart. The source for this information is the book "Top R&B singles, 1942-1999 published by Record Research, Inc. All of the Record Research books are based on the Billboard Magazine charts. The label and number section indicates that this record was only released commercially as a 12" single. If that's the case, then the 7"-45 rpm record I have, which has a 1980 copyright date on it, may have been a special or promotional item. Still, that doesn't answer the question, why was "Rapper's Delight" the B-side? Could it be that "Rapper's Delight", already having been a hit, was purposelyh pressed into service again as a good B-side for what they hoped would be another hit for the Sugarhill Gang.

 

[firepoint525]

"Rapper's Delight" would have had to be issued as a 7" 45 single in order to have made it onto the Billboard Hot 100 as per policy in effect at the time. Although the 12" single that you referenced was eligible to make the R&B charts. I remember a similar situation in which a Village People song that was big on either the r&b or dance charts (can't remember which) was ineligible to make the Hot 100 due to never having been released as a 45.

What was the B-side of the "Rapper's Delight" single that made the top 40 (briefly) in 1979-1980? Was it the song that you mentioned at the top of this thread? If so, the single that you mentioned here may have simply been "flipped" for rerelease. You didn't say how you knew which was the A-side and which was the b-side of this single. If it was a promo as you suggested, it may have read "plug side" or something like that on the A-side. (I have no way to tell, just by looking, which was the A-side, and which was the b-side of a single, except of course with the Beatles' Apple label. But if I am already familiar with a song, I obviously know that it was the A-side of a given single.)

 

[hornet61]

"Rapper's Delight" would have had to be issued as a 7" 45 single in order to have made it onto the Billboard Hot 100 as per policy in effect at the time. Although the 12" single that you referenced was eligible to make the R&B charts. I remember a similar situation in which a Village People song that was big on either the r&b or dance charts (can't remember which) was ineligible to make the Hot 100 due to never having been released as a 45.

What was the B-side of the "Rapper's Delight" single that made the top 40 (briefly) in 1979-1980? Was it the song that you mentioned at the top of this thread? If so, the single that you mentioned here may have simply been "flipped" for rerelease. You didn't say how you knew which was the A-side and which was the b-side of this single. If it was a promo as you suggested, it may have read "plug side" or something like that on the A-side. (I have no way to tell, just by looking, which was the A-side, and which was the b-side of a single, except of course with the Beatles' Apple label. But if I am already familiar with a song, I obviously know that it was the A-side of a given single.)

As I recall, the 12 "inch single was accepted by the time Rapper's Delight was issued, which is why it made the hot 100. Sugarhill label I believe never issued a 7inch 45 of RD, they all popped up in Europe.

 

[firepoint525]

"Rapper's Delight" would have had to be issued as a 7" 45 single in order to have made it onto the Billboard Hot 100 as per policy in effect at the time. Although the 12" single that you referenced was eligible to make the R&B charts. I remember a similar situation in which a Village People song that was big on either the r&b or dance charts (can't remember which) was ineligible to make the Hot 100 due to never having been released as a 45.

As I recall, the 12 "inch single was accepted by the time Rapper's Delight was issued, which is why it made the hot 100. Sugarhill label I believe never issued a 7inch 45 of RD, they all popped up in Europe.

Wow, if that's true, that had to suck for the Village People, because the example that I gave above was only about a year or so earlier. Of course, the VP had bigger problems by then, since their career was basically over by the time this change took place!

 

[hornet61]

"Rapper's Delight" would have had to be issued as a 7" 45 single in order to have made it onto the Billboard Hot 100 as per policy in effect at the time. Although the 12" single that you referenced was eligible to make the R&B charts. I remember a similar situation in which a Village People song that was big on either the r&b or dance charts (can't remember which) was ineligible to make the Hot 100 due to never having been released as a 45.

As I recall, the 12 "inch single was accepted by the time Rapper's Delight was issued, which is why it made the hot 100. Sugarhill label I believe never issued a 7inch 45 of RD, they all popped up in Europe.

Wow, if that's true, that had to suck for the Village People, because the example that I gave above was only about a year or so earlier. Of course, the VP had bigger problems by then, since their career was basically over by the time this change took place!

you got me here, all i know about them, is that i really dug..Hollywood/San Francisco, extended version. I have seen them in conceret a couple of times with KC and they are fun.

 

[hornet61]

"Rapper's Delight" would have had to be issued as a 7" 45 single in order to have made it onto the Billboard Hot 100 as per policy in effect at the time. Although the 12" single that you referenced was eligible to make the R&B charts. I remember a similar situation in which a Village People song that was big on either the r&b or dance charts (can't remember which) was ineligible to make the Hot 100 due to never having been released as a 45.

As I recall, the 12 "inch single was accepted by the time Rapper's Delight was issued, which is why it made the hot 100. Sugarhill label I believe never issued a 7inch 45 of RD, they all popped up in Europe.

Wow, if that's true, that had to suck for the Village People, because the example that I gave above was only about a year or so earlier. Of course, the VP had bigger problems by then, since their career was basically over by the time this change took place!

Is the Springsteen and Cole Pink Cadillacs the same song........didn't Aretha also have a Pink cadillac record??