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Ratings Question From Somebody Outside the Business

I have never read anything specifically on this issue, but I gather from this board and listening to talks shows that Arbitron releases the barest ratings to the media, and the radio stations, who are its customers, get the ratings finely diced with a contract provision that they cannot release the specifics. Talk show hosts are very cute when talking about their ratings, saying things like "I've seen the book and let me tell you, we did very well", but never get into specifics. I also would guess that advertisers get a glimpse at the specific ratings.

My question is if all these people have access to ratings, why do the specifics never leak?
 
I believe the companies that track ratings information keep such a short leash on the results because it would diminish their revenue stream. If everyone were privy to the information without having to pay, then how would they stay in business?

K~
 
I get that the ratings company want to keep a lid on the ratings, but how do they? I have to imagine that a lot of people between radio staff and advertisers see the demo specific ratings.
 
My question is if all these people have access to ratings, why do the specifics never leak?

Because--all these people have access to ratings. The people that subscribe and use
the data, that is. I mean, who else would need that info ?

Plus, it's part of the contract stations and agencies have with Arbitron to keep it on the DL.
It's not unlike a subscription to the Herald. Thousands of people get the paper, and
even though we all talk about the headlines (even w/non subscribers), you can't photo copy
the articles and sell it on the street.

We've all seen those 12+ numbers that have been "embargoed" right ?. That means someone
in that market broke their end of the deal, hence nobody gets anything for free. Only those
who pay for the book--get the book.
 
Thousands of people get the paper, and
even though we all talk about the headlines (even w/non subscribers), you can't photo copy
the articles and sell it on the street.

I get it, there is a contract. But it is illegal to share copyrighted music, post newspaper articles in forums, and upload clips of TV shows to youtube and yet they each occur daily thousands of times over. Somehow, Arbitron is able to keep its information under wraps.

And there are people out there who want the detailed ratings who don't have access. Shows are always arguing about who is doing better, but even though fans would want to know the truth, the information never gets out.
 
the 6+ numbers that are now released in the PPM markets for public consumption are useless.

We used to complain about the 12+ numbers being garbage, now IMHO the public numbers have very little value.

In the bad old days you could tell when someone wasn't doing well in the ratings.... they were gone after one bad book.

It doesn't matter how many people are listening to any one station. What matters is you have format X catering to demographic Y, who the consultants tell you are the most likely to buy A,B, and C. You have one new kid on the block who just changed to the format, and 2 stations nobody knows exists. Product A,B, and C have manufacturers and retailers who are willing to spend big money to get their message out to demographic Y (also known as your P1). Your job as PD is to put out a product that Joe Blow is going to keep tuned to, so that the sales slugs can go to the makers and sellers of X,Y, and Z can go to them with the super secret book numbers and say "Hey we're KRUD, and we want to be your partner! If you advertise with us, we can make sure that each week 500,000 people are going to hear your spot on our #1 rated morning show that is geared towards the customers you want. How many spots can I put you down for!


Radio is about selling spots and generating revenue. Programming is just the stuff they broadcast between commercials to keep you listening till the next stop set. You could have a station that shows no listeners in the 6+ ratings, but you may have a niche format that a group of people listen to, and you know through research that niche group likes say tofu. You go to every tofu retailer and manufacturer you can find and you convince them you can increase their sales and profits by a small investment in radio advertising. You may have 1000 listeners, but if you can get them to buy Fred's Tofu, and Fred sees his sales go through the roof, he is going to continue buying spots from you, and Fred's competitors are going to want in too, and since there are only so many minutes in the hour, the time becomes more valuable, and Fred and his competition are willing to pay more to get more of it for themselves (to a point). Doesn't matter that there are only a thousand people listening at any given time and you have no ratings, you have proven to Fred that you can deliver customers to him, and he is willing to pay dearly for those prospects.

Look at the "dollar a holler" programs, be they religious, financial, restaurant review, etc. They may get crap ratings, but they have a following that spends(or sends) money. Look at Pat Whitley or the Andleman boys. No doubt their program sucks, just one big infomercial, but even with crap ratings they manage to sell tons of spots and make a pretty good living for themselves. Pat Whitley made so much money off his show, he gave up his regular radio gig to do the food stuff full time.
 
dyeingeye said:
I get it, there is a contract. But it is illegal to share copyrighted music, post newspaper articles in forums, and upload clips of TV shows to youtube and yet they each occur daily thousands of times over.

Yeah... but large amounts of people want that material. Radio Ratings are not that useful to people out of the biz, and it's a small biz so of you cheat it doesn't take long for EVERYBODY to find out about it.
 
Would be cool if after a ratings period has passed by into the next one, they could put out the previous numbers for the public (or at least for us radio geeks).
 
I've often wondered why these numbers aren't for public consumption. TV ratings are published in the newspaper every week, show by show. If I'm an advertiser or potential advertiser I'd want more than the station's word that they're number 1. I hear a lot of shows claiming to be number one. The last listing I saw of the overall ratings had WEEI at around number 8 but they claim to be number 1. I realize that it's based on a certain demographic but it would be interesting to see. In this new sports station war, some shows on 98.5 are going to do better than others, but most of us will never know which ones until someone gets canceled.
 
dyeingeye said:
But it is illegal to share copyrighted music, post newspaper articles in forums, and upload clips of TV shows to youtube and yet they each occur daily thousands of times over. Somehow, Arbitron is able to keep its information under wraps.

Because Arbitron does its research for its paying clients, and you are not one of them. Even after the ratings have been compiled and issued to its subscribers, Arbitron retains ownership of the data. Further, the consequences for releasing the data to non-subscribers can include de-listing of a company's stations, lawsuits (which Arbitron pursues in EVERY case, not just taking pot-shots like the RIAA does), and in general costs stations tons of money...and an employer who employs a person who causes them such grief is putting his/her job in peril. Arbitron's contract with companies includes a very iron-clad non-disclosure agreement.
 
There was an Arbitron issue involving morning show host John DePetro of WPRO-AM. Seems someone was messing around with Arbitron and their ratings system. Which then caused Arbitron to issue a new book. But through it all. Depetro still remains an employee of Citadel Broadcasting (WPRO-AM).
 
dumber than a box of hair said:
dyeingeye said:
But it is illegal to share copyrighted music, post newspaper articles in forums, and upload clips of TV shows to youtube and yet they each occur daily thousands of times over. Somehow, Arbitron is able to keep its information under wraps.

Because Arbitron does its research for its paying clients, and you are not one of them. Even after the ratings have been compiled and issued to its subscribers, Arbitron retains ownership of the data.

I know that. And none of those facts explains why they don't get out.

Further, the consequences for releasing the data to non-subscribers can include de-listing of a company's stations, lawsuits (which Arbitron pursues in EVERY case, not just taking pot-shots like the RIAA does), and in general costs stations tons of money...and an employer who employs a person who causes them such grief is putting his/her job in peril. Arbitron's contract with companies includes a very iron-clad non-disclosure agreement.

But I never read even an anonymous hint what the specifics are. And I think people would be interested considering how programs in direct competition are always spinning the specific ratings.
 
Here's the deal. 6+ (formerly 12+in the big markets) are available for general publication. Specific demos are only available to subscuibers. Radio stations pay a ton of money for this. Agencies pay a pittance. You cannot talk about ratings that are currently in the field, but you can talk about past ratings, including rank. If you mention it on the air, you have to include any qualifications. For example, WBZ has an announcement that says, "This is the most listened-to station in New England." It's no longer true. Kiss 108 and Magic 106.7 each have over 1.3 million listeners per week, and WBZ has 850,000. 25-54, the number that the agencies care about, show Kiss, Magic, WEEI, Jam'n and WZLX as the top five.
 
Team America said:
There was an Arbitron issue involving morning show host John DePetro of WPRO-AM. Seems someone was messing around with Arbitron and their ratings system. Which then caused Arbitron to issue a new book. But through it all. Depetro still remains an employee of Citadel Broadcasting (WPRO-AM).

Because in that case, nothing could be proven. There were rumors to the effect that Mrs. Depetro had filled out the diaries (which she shouldn't have had in the first place). Apparently Arbitron was not willing to go to the expense of doing a thorough investigation.
 
dumber than a box of hair said:
dyeingeye said:
none of those facts explains why they don't get out.

What part of "you are not a paying customer" do you not understand?

I am glad you have such faith in people's sense of obligation to honor contracts. Christ, read everything I have posted. I know that the people who receive the detailed information are contractually bound not to reveal the info, but in this day and age I don't see how some numbers don't leak. Nobody says "I saw the books or I heard from a good source and R&S and kicking the crap out of wacky morning show in x demo." or

Whether protected by contract or penalty of law, the fact is information is leaked out all the time. Why not radio ratings? And don't say paying customer.
 
dyeingeye said:
dumber than a box of hair said:
dyeingeye said:
none of those facts explains why they don't get out.

What part of "you are not a paying customer" do you not understand?

I am glad you have such faith in people's sense of obligation to honor contracts. Christ, read everything I have posted. I know that the people who receive the detailed information are contractually bound not to reveal the info, but in this day and age I don't see how some numbers don't leak. Nobody says "I saw the books or I heard from a good source and R&S and kicking the crap out of wacky morning show in x demo." or

Whether protected by contract or penalty of law, the fact is information is leaked out all the time. Why not radio ratings? And don't say paying customer.

Too bad. That's the answer. You won't see this info "leak" because people who are gainfully employed don't generally feel like jeopardizing that condition.
 
dyeingeye said:
Whether protected by contract or penalty of law, the fact is information is leaked out all the time. Why not radio ratings? And don't say paying customer.

They DO leak out all the time.

They are occasionally printed in the newspaper. Sometimes they are posted on message boards. If you know someone at a station, they can give them to you.

Arbitron is concerned that non-subscribing stations don't use Arbitron results as a sales tool. And they are concerned when people start mass distributing the proprietary numbers...like printing up ARB quotes with your sales brochures is you are a non-subscriber...or making them available en mass. Posting them on the internet would fall into the latter category.

Remember, whenever anything is in short supply....it is more valuable.
 
DrPicky said:
For example, WBZ has an announcement that says, "This is the most listened-to station in New England." It's no longer true. Kiss 108 and Magic 106.7 each have over 1.3 million listeners per week, and WBZ has 850,000.

Is that WBZ total just for Boston? WBZ can be heard everywhere in New England. The two FM stations can not. Perhaps it's still true.
 
Don Juan said:
dyeingeye said:
Whether protected by contract or penalty of law, the fact is information is leaked out all the time. Why not radio ratings? And don't say paying customer.

They DO leak out all the time.

They are occasionally printed in the newspaper. Sometimes they are posted on message boards. If you know someone at a station, they can give them to you.

Arbitron is concerned that non-subscribing stations don't use Arbitron results as a sales tool. And they are concerned when people start mass distributing the proprietary numbers...like printing up ARB quotes with your sales brochures is you are a non-subscriber...or making them available en mass. Posting them on the internet would fall into the latter category.

Remember, whenever anything is in short supply....it is more valuable.

I understand all that.
 
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