Ratings & WOCL

[John FL]

The way the ratings are featured on R.I. seem confusing. They are noted as Feb- Mar-Apr 2010 with previous ratings for winter but isn't Feb and March part of winter? Anyway, it would look like things are flat at Sunny or maybe even trending down? Would I be correct? There's been a lot of hype it seems and I was expecting to see some kind of bump.

I realize no one listens to me or anyone else for that matter. When many of us have been consistant in our message, you would think some common sense would prevail. Upbeat music is great but the danger of doing that all the time is you burn out songs very quickly and the work crowd that is critical to a classic hit's real success will not be in play. Isn't the whole idea of classic hits, especially the CBS brand, one that reflects Top 40? There's a lot more than one or two kinds of music.

In my humble opinion, Sunny and the format has the potential to be in the mid to high 4 shares overall. Maybe they believe they will get there doing what they are doing. Something tells me that ain't gonna happen but right all the time I'm not. It seems with all our input on all these boards - we might as well be talking to a brick wall.

 

[JBarrett]

I don't think Rick Stacey has been there long enough just yet but I expect you'll see a bump up on both Sunny (WOCL) and Mix (WOMX) when the SUMMER Book comes out.

 

[ShadowFan]

The way the ratings are featured on R.I. seem confusing. They are noted as Feb- Mar-Apr 2010 with previous ratings for winter but isn't Feb and March part of winter? Anyway, it would look like things are flat at Sunny or maybe even trending down? Would I be correct? There's been a lot of hype it seems and I was expecting to see some kind of bump.

I realize no one listens to me or anyone else for that matter. When many of us have been consistant in our message, you would think some common sense would prevail. Upbeat music is great but the danger of doing that all the time is you burn out songs very quickly and the work crowd that is critical to a classic hit's real success will not be in play. Isn't the whole idea of classic hits, especially the CBS brand, one that reflects Top 40? There's a lot more than one or two kinds of music.

In my humble opinion, Sunny and the format has the potential to be in the mid to high 4 shares overall. Maybe they believe they will get there doing what they are doing. Something tells me that ain't gonna happen but right all the time I'm not. It seems with all our input on all these boards - we might as well be talking to a brick wall.

Arbitron ratings based are rolling average of three months..as one month is added to the mix, a month is dropped.

 

[John FL]

Shadow, that's right - rolling averages, I forgot about that. There was another source that's now gone that posted ratings and the latest trends were clearer to see. But with PPM coming, monthly breakdowns will be easier to follow for those like me who like things simple. LOL.

JBarrett brought up WOMX and I had forgotten they were apart of the Orlando CBS cluster. I always believed that the true potential of the "Sunnys" even going back to the days when it was called oldies was never fully realized. Let's face it, they didn't get the lions share of marketing dollars and playlists became too restricted to prevent even indirect competition from the younger leaning demo bigger sister stations.

It's almost like a Catch 22. Don't play certain songs and you can skew too old, play most of them and you hurt others in the cluster. Anyway, one of my ideas for Sunny that I detailed in the North Florida board was for Sunny to do all 80s weekends. Given Mix is mainly an 80s/90s station, well I think the odds of that happening may be a long shot. The 80s had a lot of music that can fall into certain format buckets so I believe there is wiggle room. There's some duplication but I still feel there are enough differences to allow a station like Sunny to consider it as an option. Orlando is not New York. There would be a listener revolt if CBS FM did it every weekend. Sunny is a different story.

 

[JBarrett]

From what I have heard Rick is playing a lot of ROCK HITS on Sunny but songs you generally don't hear on Classic Rocker's like WHTQ or on AC's....Stuff like Bryan Adams.

 

[DToTheJ]

... one of my ideas for Sunny that I detailed in the North Florida board was for Sunny to do all 80s weekends. Given Mix is mainly an 80s/90s station, well I think the odds of that happening may be a long shot. The 80s had a lot of music that can fall into certain format buckets so I believe there is wiggle room...

Yeah, that might be shooting themselves in the proverbial foot... Not that many stations regularly do all-80's weekends every single weekend. I know WGNI in Wilmington is one.

 

[John FL]

It wasn’t too long ago that I had the same reaction as you if an all 80s weekend were suggested/recommended for a classic hits format such as Sunny 105.9. I am more convinced than ever that it is the right and even logical course to follow. Time doesn’t stand still and neither should the format.

What I find amazing about the business of radio is that many talk out of both sides of their mouths. That statement is not directed at anyone in particular – just the nature of the business. How often do we hear the format tends to skew too old or the same couple hundred songs played over and over in time burn out seeing the format flip to something else or changing radically all at once which is disruptive to listeners.

So if you all think about it in this way, my idea is far from radical but it’s just common sense and I would hope the business still has room for that. When the format was known as oldies and the playlist covered the late 50s, the 60s and early 70s, some innovators bucked conventional thinking and even some listener hysteria to feature all 70s weekends. It was a way to go deeper into the decade, reacquaint listeners with songs they may have forgotten and it kept the station fresh – something often lacking.

The same concepts can be applied to the 80s. Eventually it will be reality – as time marches on – the 80s clearly have to be a part of oldies or whatever you want to call it. Do the math – 1980 is 30 years ago. During the 90s, oldies formats played mostly 60s – music 30 years prior on average.

Specifically, there is another element to consider about Sunny. Deep down inside I really don’t ever see the station having the kind of longevity like Tampa’s Q-105 or Miami’s WMXJ and certainly CBS FM. It shows you too how different the format is depending on geography and owner philosophy. Sunny may very well be a station on the chopping block to be sold.

Very few owners want to give the format an opportunity to succeed or to invest a lot of time and energy into it. Let’s assume Sunny’s target audience is mainly woman and men 35+. Suppose too that in time, the 80s weekends catch on pulling in enough listeners 25- 34 to make inroads in younger demos. I would think a new owner would have to think twice before killing the format. Is it a risk? Sure it is. But to me, getting so-so ratings and requiring a lot of effort are far more risky and invite a flip to more of the same.

While I may sound like I’m contradicting myself, I’m actually very disappointed they seemed to have abandoned the 60s altogether. I believe there are two kinds of listening that go on – one in a work environment and the other in casual weekend listening. When not overdone, the 60s – many of which you will find play on CBS FM and even WMXJ can still work positioned next to more contemporary songs. It helps differentiate the station. Special programming is important too. Too many assumptions are made of listeners. On the North Florida board, I offered a Top 500 of the 80s. I considered 20 minutes of average listening here and there and I made sure at least one wow or lesser played title appeared during that average time. If Sunny did that kind of A-Z type special over a very long weekend – trust me – they would get noticed. Listeners get used to a regular feature. Right now I'm listening to WFLC. They are AC during the week and they go all 80s on the weekend. They rock and they bring in all kinds of listeners. I'm in Miami frequently and when I head to one of my favorite places - Coconut Grove - the station is heard everwhere I go on the weekends. It's still the hits but it gives listeners something different when they want to chill. They couldn't do that duirng the week - it wouldn't work and it would burn out as so many 80s stations have. I think it's just smart programming.

My entire strategy for success of this format probably defies every business method being followed by virtually everyone. I’m more into building coalitions of audience and increasing time spent listening by being competitive as an at work station and offering a lot of upbeat music from a decade that showed there was lots of music variety and diversity. We are a diverse society after all and I believe a Top 40 version of classic hits has the capacity and ability to take advantage of changing times. But the first step is to take the first step and stop following what everyone else is doing. Perhaps I went into a lot more detail than originally planned but I see those running things make the same mistakes over and over again. So I sit from where I am in the cheap seats watching the movie “The Titanic.” The ending never seems to change and how often can we say the same of radio?

 

[BRH]

I also think a move to more 80's music is inevitable in the classic hits/oldies format. As you stated, the oldies stations of the late 80s and 90s played music that was 20 to 30 years old (maybe 1966 or so as a middle ground year). Well this is currently 2010 and 20 to 30 years ago now is the 80s. It only makes sense unless you want to continue to drift demographically upwards to the hard to sell 55 plus demo. Just take myself as an example; I'm currently 40 years old (squarely in the middle of the prime 25-54 demo). I was born in 1969, spent my formative teen years listening to radio in the early and mid 80s, graduated high school in '87 and college in '92. While I personally love all kinds of music, you can see where 60s and even most 70's music is not really relating to anyone under 45. So even the 70's titles are now hitting the upper reaches of the 25-54 demos. I think a move onward to more 80s titles is inevitable or the format will fade into oblivion as it becomes less and less attractive to advertisers. Also, 1980s music shouldn't be a problem. It was a HUGE decade for CHR/Top 40 hit music, and the format exploded in the early to mid 80s. Seems to me that 80's music is much more relatable to larger numbers of people than a lot of 70's music is. (80s music was more fun, lighthearted and upbeat, much like 60s music).

Anyway, as far as Orlando in particular goes; correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Orlando always been viewed as kind of a demographically "young" market? So, it really doesn't surprise me that WOCL would tend to lean younger than many classic hits stations in other, older markets. Orlando really boomed and took off in the 80's, and there were tons of transplants who moved into the area then and grew up on hit music with stations like BJ 105 and Y106. (To me, the 80s were some of the best years for Orlando and Central FL. as far as growth and a huge boom in the area). So it just kind of seems natural to me for WOCL to move in this direction.

That's kind of my thoughts on the format, WOCL, and Orlando. Anybody else agree or disagree?

 

[Parttimer]

I also think a move to more 80's music is inevitable in the classic hits/oldies format.

KLUV in Dallas on of CBS' best oldies outlets, has also gone this direction, as has Q105 in Tampa.

 

[John FL]

When we hear about “young” markets and avoiding hard to sell older demos, the rules of radio usually involve some line in the sand being drawn where titles earlier than a certain year are banished. In its place are the popular, corporate-approved songs that are played because they are a decade or two “newer” and that helps make everything relevant and viable. Bull.

Relevance as far as song titles go is individual and really in the ear of the beholder. I never believed in ridiculous lines of demarcation. The average listener is drawn more to an overall sound and song familiarity than hearing only songs from Year A to Year B.

A week or two ago I heard “Want Ads” by the Honey Cone featured in regular programming followed by an alternative 80s tune. That’s the Cliffs Notes version of Sunny’s programming. I thought of all the classics from just a few years prior. Consider the number of album cuts from the Fab 4 that I believe many would agree have stood the test of time very well or all the great Motown hits, the early Stones, The Doors and music reflecting our Florida lifestyle – The Beach Boys. “Kokomo” is the sole survivor on most stations because it was popular in the 80s and not the 60s. Funny thing, most Beach Boys songs sound the same no matter the decade. I suppose if the same tune was popular in ’65, we would never hear it again. That makes sense, doesn’t it?

To me, song relevance for large numbers of listeners have more to do with lyrics and overall sound than in the year the song was originally popular. The other day I heard Eddie Cochran’s “Summertime Blues.” Here’s a 1958 song that if you consider the lyrics I believe has more relevance, especially the jab at politicians, than a song like Jim Croce’s “Operator” from 1972 where a human is needed to complete a phone call. Take a guess, even at this time of year, which one is featured more than the other?

We often hear that everything should be done in moderation and I believe that really does apply to radio. Most listeners don’t walk around with a pad and pen writing down a title that crosses some boundary line so they can eliminate the station from their listening.

Regardless of what many in radio will have you believe, there’s still a lot of 60s music that has stood the test of time well. Special features that are a part of this format can well include those songs on occasion. I realize radio is numbers driven, demo driven and billing driven. But I’m still convinced that even with a lot of rigid rules; this format can be competitive and more inclusive musically. The format can be a little different than all others in the crowded signal forest and maybe it’s just me but I feel listeners have more intelligence than they are given credit. To the skeptics, read the comments in YouTube from TODAY’S high school kids about Beatles music

My recommendation for an all 80s weekend was designed to help the format stay viable and competitive given all the rules. I’m also convinced that during the week listeners want to hear a little more besides “Want Ads” or “Treat her like a Lady,” lots of disco tunes and the same 75 80s songs played over and over. I recently burned a summer song CD. I’ve got the Beach Boys and “All Summer Long.” It’s summer and when people think of Florida they think of hot weather and the beaches. Apparently the Beach Boys are no longer considered relevant for even a state like Florida. Even where I am In Jacksonville, the Beach Boys packed their bags a long time ago. Little makes sense to me but I have a feeling I'm not really alone on this issue but so much needs to be fixed.

 

[DToTheJ]

... as far as Orlando in particular goes; correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Orlando always been viewed as kind of a demographically "young" market?

There's just something about 80's music and the state of Florida in general. Consider nearby Tampa has had a 24/7 all-80's station for about ten years (no matter how "New" owner Cox says it is ;D ).

 

[wprt949]

and cox flipped its sister station in jacksonville fla to rock with bubba in the mornings

 

[InSearchOfGear]

I also think a move to more 80's music is inevitable in the classic hits/oldies format. As you stated, the oldies stations of the late 80s and 90s played music that was 20 to 30 years old (maybe 1966 or so as a middle ground year). Well this is currently 2010 and 20 to 30 years ago now is the 80s. It only makes sense unless you want to continue to drift demographically upwards to the hard to sell 55 plus demo. Just take myself as an example; I'm currently 40 years old (squarely in the middle of the prime 25-54 demo). I was born in 1969, spent my formative teen years listening to radio in the early and mid 80s, graduated high school in '87 and college in '92. While I personally love all kinds of music, you can see where 60s and even most 70's music is not really relating to anyone under 45. So even the 70's titles are now hitting the upper reaches of the 25-54 demos. I think a move onward to more 80s titles is inevitable or the format will fade into oblivion as it becomes less and less attractive to advertisers. Also, 1980s music shouldn't be a problem. It was a HUGE decade for CHR/Top 40 hit music, and the format exploded in the early to mid 80s. Seems to me that 80's music is much more relatable to larger numbers of people than a lot of 70's music is. (80s music was more fun, lighthearted and upbeat, much like 60s music).

Anyway, as far as Orlando in particular goes; correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Orlando always been viewed as kind of a demographically "young" market? So, it really doesn't surprise me that WOCL would tend to lean younger than many classic hits stations in other, older markets. Orlando really boomed and took off in the 80's, and there were tons of transplants who moved into the area then and grew up on hit music with stations like BJ 105 and Y106. (To me, the 80s were some of the best years for Orlando and Central FL. as far as growth and a huge boom in the area). So it just kind of seems natural to me for WOCL to move in this direction.

That's kind of my thoughts on the format, WOCL, and Orlando. Anybody else agree or disagree?

nailed it.