....RATINGS

[Ford]

A couple of points...

1. Don't know David Eduardo, but Michael Hagerty is a class act all around, and doesn't deserve to be trashed by the likes of...well, onto point #2...

2. It didn't hit me until just now, but I've got a pretty good idea who "insidethenumbers" might be. There was a guy a few years back...consultant, very full of himself, very proud of his many years in the biz and all the people he'd worked with, and if I remember correctly he was very big into research...he went "inside the numbers" to figure out what would work. He was brought in to program KOOL, and I think might have been OM over the whole CBS cluster. Prior to his tenure, KOOL had been a ratings and revenue monster...consistently #1 25-54 and top biller to boot. It was probably the best oldies station in the country.

Then this guy came in with his ego and his research and all his supposedly great ideas. He changed everything about KOOL, from the music to the imaging and even ran off a few key members of the staff. The station's ratings nose dived, and within a short time what had been a #1 station wasn't even in the top 10 25-54. He destroyed KOOL, and like any kid who breaks their expensive toy, it was soon taken away from him.

I had heard a rumor that this guy is back in town and very badly wants another shot at programming KOOL.

This would explain a lot.

If "insidethenumbers" is who I think he is, then he needs to maybe take a look back at his own miserable failure as KOOL PD. There's an old saying about people who live in glass houses...

 

[pattiwacki]

It doesn't explain his obsession with Dave Pratt, though, wonder how that figures in?

 

[KOOL Listener Lauren]

This thread is getting absolutely ridiculous. For one... I hope we're not comparing AQH of yesterday to Cume of today. You know?

Why can a station ran like KOOL today work out like it is? PPM is a big part of the problem, being the joke that it is.

Second, no offense to you Ford, because I've always agreed with you here, but I think you're so dead-wrong. I've read this board on all things KOOL from years previous to me joining this site, so I guess I might know who you're thinking about. But... he has no reason to complain about Kris Abrams, endlessly praise Dave Pratt, and argue with DavidEduardo on these boards. In fact, since I believe I know who you're referring to, he's busy and being successful. Did he ever work with Brandmeier and Dave Otto? That would have been KZZP... I don't think so, unless I've just never heard about it.

And on your "rumor"... I HOPE SO.

You're forgetting the whole Phoenix radio and news scene of that time. That was KOOL at its greatest, and the numbers started showing it.

 

[davideduardo]

It didn't hit me until just now, but I've got a pretty good idea who "insidethenumbers" might be. There was a guy a few years back...consultant, very full of himself, very proud of his many years in the biz and all the people he'd worked with, and if I remember correctly he was very big into research...he went "inside the numbers" to figure out what would work. He was brought in to program KOOL, and I think might have been OM over the whole CBS cluster. Prior to his tenure, KOOL had been a ratings and revenue monster...consistently #1 25-54 and top biller to boot. It was probably the best oldies station in the country.

And that would be Todd Wallace, who had been some time before at KRIZ and, I think, with Tazarek at KTAR.

He was one of the first to use call out in the US, going back to the mid-70's...

 

[Ford]

A few more points...

Lauren, I don't take offense. I was just throwing out a possible identity for the poster in question. Contrary to your assertion, I think that if he is indeed Todd Wallace, then he'd have every reason to complain about Kris Abrams. Wallace was fired from the job Kris Abrams now holds, and it isn't unreasonable to imagine that he views PD Kris as standing between him and his rightful position.

I would disagree with you that Wallace's tenure at your favorite station was "KOOL at its greatest." Again, when he took over, it was #1 25-54, and had been for quite some time. When he left, it was nowhere close to #1. The station had tanked under his tenure, and I think it is worth noting that the "dream team" of Gardner/Peake/Camelback Jack were still in place at the time.

I can kind of excuse PD Kris for not succeeding after having to cut loose a third of his very talented air staff, but I'd turn around and say it takes a special kind of person to ruin a station filled with talent on the level of Bill, Tom, and Jack. Yet that is exactly what Wallace did.

Now, is Wallace obsessed with Dave Pratt? I don't know. Did he work with Brandmeier and Dave Otto? I don't know. Is he really "insidethenumbers?" I don't know.

But what I do know is that if Wallace is allowed to succeed PD Kris at KOOL, you can kiss what is left of a once-great station goodbye.

 

[justthenumbers]

I'd also like to stand up for Michael Hagerty. He is a class act who has been a quality contributor to this board (and before that, the USENET radio newsgroups) for a very long time.

 

[asugeorge1]

I'd also like to stand up for Michael Hagerty. He is a class act who has been a quality contributor to this board (and before that, the USENET radio newsgroups) for a very long time.

Agreed! I personally enjoy his very informative traffic reports with those nifty arrows every morning on ABC 15.

 

[KOOL Listener Lauren]

Lauren, I don't take offense. I was just throwing out a possible identity for the poster in question. Contrary to your assertion, I think that if he is indeed Todd Wallace, then he'd have every reason to complain about Kris Abrams.

Thanks Ford. I understand you were guessing the identity, and therefore you didn't throw out a name. That was good. In fact, a quick click on the profile of "insidethenumbers" might tell you otherwise, as well.

By the logic you are explaining, there should have been absolutely no shortage of Charley Lake bashing. Certainly, Charley taking control of the station would be the most viable time of all to start bashing a succeeding KOOL program director. Not to mention, many here credited Charley and interim PD Tom Peake (for a short time before Charley) for the fine Spring Book-- despite the true majority of the time and numbers were all Todd.

And that's to say, Charley Lake bashing, IF such a well-respected and successful programming pro such as Todd feels the need to spend such time on this message board. I would confidently bet money that your guess is still wrong.

On topic...

When have these talks of KOOL, KMLE, and the Kris Abrams bashing began? After a real degradation of these stations. Both of 'em... sorry to say, but we all know it is true and it has been proven with terrible numbers in the not-so-distant past. It wasn't just because of the axings of full-timers Bill Gardner, John Michaels, Camelback Jack, Dave Shannon, Joe Corrao, Dena Fox, Stu Evans, or Dave Pratt and his morning crew.

There should be no mystery why so many of us have been angered. "insidethenumbers", I believe, most likely speaks from the point of view of one who has worked at either of these stations, and has worked with some of the talented on-air personalities who lost their job. This person knew these stations during better times, and they feel strongly about what it has turned into.

It's not just the disappearance of so many talented people. It's the disappearance of things that made these stations great-- things that made you want to tune in. Things that made a listener feel valued and have it be their favorite. A station that offered more than just music.

It had me excited recently about simply voting on the website for the Top 5 at 5 songs. Deeper, that shows how far back the station has gone. I still like it, but come on.

KOOL has been rebuilt, and in the process, unlike five years ago, the P1s went out along with the old (not demographically speaking).

I can kind of excuse PD Kris for not succeeding after having to cut loose a third of his very talented air staff, but I'd turn around and say it takes a special kind of person to ruin a station filled with talent on the level of Bill, Tom, and Jack. Yet that is exactly what Wallace did.

You want to look at the big picture of the circumstances Kris Abrams has faced, but are ignoring, or maybe have forgotten, the Phoenix radio and political year of 2004, changes and new offerings in the market, and the need to freshen up the station against a new, more direct competitor. People in radio I think can understand the effects these things have on an OLDIES format station. He better positioned KOOL, freshened it up, and it was a fun station that offered a whole lot. Numbers proved it in 2005. Anyway, I remember BOTH years very well. Don't mean to sound so full of myself... Like you think Hagerty doesn't deserve to be "trashed" here, which I agree, Todd shouldn't either... especially since you don't know the real identity of "insidethenumbers". It's all hearsay and a little silly.

Back on topic, again...

Kris Abrams may be getting some heat from people here because, while the station is improving (slooowly... or as much as CHEAP can get you), look at what PPM shows. Like it's acceptable. It may work for a while, but the key to loyal and long-lasting success is more than playing a ton-o-music.
.

 

[KMGX]

I haven't been around much of late, however I read through this thread and found some interesting points on which to comment.

It's no surprise that KTAR is not the juggernaut that it should be. Round-robin middays with tape delayed Glen Beck, followed by Mac and Cheese in the afternoon and the high quality audio of Joe "ISDN" Crummey in the evening doesn't exactly equate to huge ratings. Beck should really be on the air live to reach the maximum potential of that show. I like Phil Hendrie andthat is one move in which KTAR did well.

Sports radio in Phoenix has never been huge and it will never be for a multitude of reasons. The cliche reasons for under performance include "transient city", "loyalties elsewhere", "the teams aren't very good", and while these are not altogether untrue that doesn't really explain the real reasons behind sports radio completely in the tank. Sports Radio in Phoenix--like pitching in baseball--is diluted; there are currently three sports stations in Phoenix and sadly none are really all that good (for various reasons).

KTAR has the Suns, Diamondbacks and Cardinals plus the poor excuse for college football that is ASU. Those broadcasts are good, if not excellent (Al McCoy is a legend). The rest of the programming on KTAR is mediocre at best (and in some cases that's a generous statement), the bad Shtick of Doug and Wolf wore out two years ago (ratings sort of bare that out) "Gather 'round the transistor radio basinonians..." bleh. What's worse than the pompous, inaccurate, Colin Cowherd? The pompous, inaccurate Colin Cowherd on tape delay! I could pick apart the technicalities of why his show is terrible, but frankly the ratings also prove this point just fine for me. Gambo and Ash are very nice people, unfortunately it's hard to build credibility when your check is being cut by the local teams flagship station. The same station that--in the past--has sent out memos directing it's hosts what they are and are not allowed to comment on. Also, I'm not a fan of "topical" hours or segments where the hosts throw out a question and expect the listener to give a regurgitated answer... it's what's wrong with KTAR FM and AM. Dave Burns is much the same as Gambo and Ash... with a bit more shtick and constantly repeating the name of the station in nearly every sentence, example: "Earlier today you heard Gambo and Ash, one to six here on Sports six-twenty, talk about Mark Reynolds home run that he hit in that game last night which you heard here on sports six-twenty KTAR" (That isn't much of a dramatization by the way). Regardless KTAR is very mediocre (but I'd expect nothing more from Bonnerville).

KGME: It's very simple.. TEN HOURS OF TAPE DELAY. Needlessly tape delaying the Steve Czaban, Dan Patrick and Jim Rome show (as well as a re-air on the first hour of JT the Brick at 3am) is just BAD PROGRAMMING. The programming itself is fair; Steve Czaban is good, Dan Patrick is unlistenable (name dropping, monotone, barely sports related syndicated show), Jim Rome is an acquired taste--I understand why many people like and don't like the show... I'm not much of a fan these days, but the show gets good ratings in most markets and has historically done well here. Bickley and MJ are good guys and do a good show, Mike is very knowledgeable and aside from the "topical" segments, I'm good with the show--but the ratings... eh.

KDUS (The Fan AM 1060): I'll give it up to the Fan, they make the most effort to put on local hosts and make it work on a shoe-string budget. 11 hours of consecutive local shows is amazing in this market! The quality of shows is mostly good, although the afternoon drive show leaves much to be desired... why not just do the show from the studio so that you're not on crappy ISDN's ALL THE TIME? In any event, the station has a fairly poor signal, bad production and carries sporting news radio (which is even worse than ESPN radio.. and that's saying something). If this station had Clear Channel behind it, they might actually be very competitive, as it is though, the ratings say that this dog should have been put to sleep long ago... sad too, because they're the only ones really making an effort.

 

[KOHS]

It's no surprise that KTAR is not the juggernaut that it should be. Round-robin middays with tape delayed Glen Beck, followed by Mac and Cheese in the afternoon and the high quality audio of Joe "ISDN" Crummey in the evening doesn't exactly equate to huge ratings. Beck should really be on the air live to reach the maximum potential of that show. I like Phil Hendrie andthat is one move in which KTAR did well.

KMGX- Always good to read your comments. Carrying Beck live is problematic for KTAR as it would put him on from 6a-9a. Now, that's not a problem if you don't want to focus on morning news and frequent, live traffic updates. I have wondered out loud before how much longer KTAR will keep Yellow Thunder flying. Carrying Beck live would probably send Detour Dan packing and mean grounding Yellow Thunder.

 

[ToddWallace]

Thought I should weigh in on this (after being told about it).

First, for the record, although I am admittedly knee-deep in the hooplah of the numbers in several markets, be it known: I am NOT the poster who goes by the name “InsideTheNumbers” on the Phoenix discussion board (though I think he or she raises some good points quite often).

A few months ago someone wondered aloud on this board if I was “Dr. Akbar”. Nope on that, too, though I always enjoy his intelligent posts and usually agree with him 90% of the time. (For perspective, I only agree with my own rants about 50% of the time!)

Just so you know, I don’t post on this board very often, but when I do I ALWAYS use my own name. I’ve never felt the need to hide behind a silly “board name” (perhaps because I don’t waste my time flaming others or trying to stir up pointless controversies). If I have an opinion or comment about any issue, I’ll offer it – and stand behind it. As “me”. That way you know you can take my observations seriously.

Note to “Ford”: Do you seriously think that the way for a responsible executive to promote himself/herself to management as a potential successor to a local PD is to write critically about that person on a Radio discussion board? You might think that’s cool, Slick, but that’s certainly not my style. (Besides, it’s bad karma.)

FYI – a few asides about other points raised –
Yes, Dave Pratt and I have been good friends for years – and I am an enthusiastic Pratt fan and supporter. He is the most effective and impactful radio personality in Phoenix Radio. (I really don’t understand the “logic” that led to his being taken off the air.)
No, I didn’t personally know or work with Brandmeier or Crazy Dave Otto, though I’ve always respected and enjoyed their respective acts. They are world-class (as is Pratt).
And no, I didn’t “just get back in town” as “Ford” asserts. My consulting practice has been based here for years. (Eons.)

Finally, I would be remiss if I didn’t offer a special shout out of thanks to KOOL Listener Lauren for her kind words in coming to my defense in this thread.

T W

 

[DrAkbar]

A few months ago someone wondered aloud on this board if I was “Dr. Akbar”. Nope on that, too, though I always enjoy his intelligent posts and usually agree with him 90% of the time. (For perspective, I only agree with my own rants about 50% of the time!)

And for that matter Nurse Jeff is not Todd Wallace. However I am humbled to know TW3 agrees with me 90% of the time. If only I could get the Nurse to show that kind of respect. But then again Mr Wallace doesn't have to chauffer his boss around in a '76 Gremlin Levi's Special!

 

[KOHS]

And for that matter Nurse Jeff is not Todd Wallace. However I am humbled to know TW3 agrees with me 90% of the time. If only I could get the Nurse to show that kind of respect. But then again Mr Wallace doesn't have to chauffer his boss around in a '76 Gremlin Levi's Special!

Try using stronger deodorant!! Nurse Jeff might find you more agreeable.

 

[Ford]

Note to “Ford”: Do you seriously think that the way for a responsible executive to promote himself/herself to management as a potential successor to a local PD is to write critically about that person on a Radio discussion board?

No, I don't think that would be the way for a responsible executive to act.

You might think that’s cool...

No, I don't think that's cool.



So I'll admit to mild surprise at being wrong about the identity of "insidethenumbers."

 

[johndavis]

Kris Abrams may be getting some heat from people here because, while the station is improving (slooowly... or as much as CHEAP can get you), look at what PPM shows. Like it's acceptable. It may work for a while, but the key to loyal and long-lasting success is more than playing a ton-o-music.
.

Well, guess what? Stations that do well in PPM play a ton-o-music, and the oldies format as we once knew it is pretty much dead. It's only a matter of time before even CBS-FM drops the 60's titles and is entirely 70's & 80's.

What I guarantee you'll hear with PPM:

1. Cold segs. You don't have to beat people over the head with your call letters anymore. Either they're listening to you or they're not.

2. Fewer talk breaks. Again, you're not playing the diary game, so the few times you do crack the mic, you need to make it count. I'm hoping that stations will take heed of Alan Burns' recent findings that the majority of jock talk is self-promotion. I know I've worked for too many stations that talk too much about how little we talk. (The top of the hour liner at the old Mix 101 was a great example of bad radio - at least 60 seconds of saying absolutely nothing of any importance in an attempt to position the station - that liner was so long we had to edit the jingle because there's no way you could read the whole thing before the bed ran out.) Jock talk needs to be useful.

PPM doesn't change how the audience listens to radio, but it does change how stations listen to their audience. Stations that respect the listener will be rewarded. Stations that don't will be punished. But working in a market that has had PPM for awhile (and is actually accredited) I can tell you that we quickly learned that half of the stuff we all thought was cool in radio didn't play so well with the audience... and since everyone made their adjustments I find myself able to listen to radio longer. Until they play a crappy song, of course.

 

[pattiwacki]

I know that the ipod has spoiled me for listening to music w/o talk. The music stations I listen to now are the ones that have very little talk, and when I want to hear talk, I tune in to talk radio.

 

[landtuna]

I guess I'll always be part of the older generation of radio listeners who don't mind DJ's talking IF the talk is meaningful or interesting.

If I wanted music only, and no "bad" songs, I'd just fire up the mp3 player or CD.

If music radio ever gets to the point where they do nothing but play music they will become irrelevant (to me).

 

[Ford]

Well, guess what? Stations that do well in PPM play a ton-o-music...

Well since you're in the know about PPM, what are we finding out about commercial loads?

I mean if PPM data says in effect "X amount of people tune out when a jock starts talking about nothing," and therefore stations cut back on talk breaks, what if the data says that the same X amount of people tune out when the station goes into a 10 or 12 minute stop-set?

I hate to be cynical (well, actually I like it sometimes), but I've got a sinking feeling that if the data showed that a 10 minute stop-set was every bit as detrimental as "Weenie and the Butt" doing a wacky 5-minute prank phone call, the former would be ignored, while the latter would lead to a meeting in the PD's office about how wacky phone bits "just don't work in a PPM world."

So are stations in markets that have had PPM for awhile finding that spot loads are a liability? Is anyone even looking at those numbers?

 

[johndavis]

Well, guess what? Stations that do well in PPM play a ton-o-music...

Well since you're in the know about PPM, what are we finding out about commercial loads?

I mean if PPM data says in effect "X amount of people tune out when a jock starts talking about nothing," and therefore stations cut back on talk breaks, what if the data says that the same X amount of people tune out when the station goes into a 10 or 12 minute stop-set?

I hate to be cynical (well, actually I like it sometimes), but I've got a sinking feeling that if the data showed that a 10 minute stop-set was every bit as detrimental as "Weenie and the Butt" doing a wacky 5-minute prank phone call, the former would be ignored, while the latter would lead to a meeting in the PD's office about how wacky phone bits "just don't work in a PPM world."

So are stations in markets that have had PPM for awhile finding that spot loads are a liability? Is anyone even looking at those numbers?

Yes, commercial policies have changed since PPM went into effect. Everyone has tweaked it differently, but everyone has tweaked their stopsets one way or another.

The stations that I work for have cut their commercial load and using this to their advantage against the stations that have not. If you're an advertiser, would you rather be in a short stopset and be heard or would you like to be the 8th out of 10 units in a set? 3 years ago, one station I was on ran about 15 minutes of spots an hour when we were sold out. Then we went to 10 minutes an hour. Now we're at 8 minutes an hour, playing two sets of 4. (The other station that I work for has been playing 8 minutes an hour for years.) Both call out their competition by name: "...yesterday in the 4:00 hour, The Arrow played 23 commercials but here at The Eagle we only played 7..."

Other stations in the market are doing commerical-free hours, but loading up the spots in the hours surrounding the commerical free hours. So yeah, they have a commercial-free lunch hour, but you'll get 25 units in the 11:00 AM hour. They're also selling shorter spots, so they can cram more units into a stopset, so they can play 10 spots in a break but only stop for 2:30 because the spots are all :15's.

 

[johndavis]

I guess I'll always be part of the older generation of radio listeners who don't mind DJ's talking IF the talk is meaningful or interesting.

I don't think this is a generational thing. If the only thing you're going to say when you crack the mic is "The new Mix 96.5, now with more music, more variety, a better mix of the 70's, 80's and 90's with less talk for your busy workday. We know that when you're looking for a radio station you want variety... so here's Rage Against The Machine on the station that's number one while you work, the new Mix 96.5!" you might as well not bother talking at all.