In Reply #11, radioguy39nj asked:
With 38 kw at 551 ft, it’s only 0.2 dB below full power now.
With 38 kw at 551 ft, it’s only 0.2 dB below full power now.
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Ratings
- Thread starter Bill_W
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radioskeptic said:
If you put news on 94.1, 94.1 becomes the main signal - the one people will want to listen to if they can. You're not simulcasting 1060 on 94.1, you're doing the reverse. And the only reason to simulcast an FM on AM is if the AM has reach in places the FM doesn't. With these two stations, that's not the case. Which means nobody at all is going to be listening on AM.
If KYW is on 94.1, you are essentially blowing up 1060 unless you put something else on it it that gets ratings.
When WPEN started simulcasting on FM, the ratings for the AM went from 1.5 to 0.5. That's because everyone who is in range of both started listening on FM. That's a simulcast, but they essentially blew up 950. No big loss because it wasn't pulling 6 shares. But KYW is.
I think your 20% audience increase is a little high. I'm just not seeing a 7.2 for news on FM in Philly. But that's still losing 1.2% of the audience, or more if you consider that there has to be a format they could put on WYSP that could do better than a 2.4 without eating into 1060's 6 share.
I think Hot AC on 97.5 failed because of an inferior signal. You can't do a second-in music format on an inferior signal. Hot AC on 94.1 could work, I think.
O
oasisrulz
Guest
radioskeptic said:
and they are a true flamethrower....anyone would love to have that signal...it really really gets out....
Let me respond to some of your statements in Reply # 21, aindik.
No, “blowing up” a station means eliminating the format completely. It doesn’t mean moving an existing format from one frequency to another within the same band, or moving the programming and call to the other band, and it certainly doesn’t mean beginning a simulcast. At least, not when professionals use the phrase.
We have separate figures for the two WPEN’s only because they’re not simulcasting 100 percent of the time. KCBS (740) and KFCR-FM (106.9) are 100 percent simulcast, and thus don’t need separate ratings. So we have no indication of how the KCBS audience is split between AM and FM.
Of course, they may be cannibalizing the AM audience, because even a good AM signal is going to be at a serious disadvantage in today’s electromagnetic environment. But the classic hits format they “blew up” in the fall of 2008, when they began simulcasting KCBS on FM, wasn’t worth the effort, and I suspect WYSP isn’t either.
True, the 97.5 signal – a move-in from Trenton that is now drastically short-spaced to a first-adjacent which is licensed to Millville (but which has its transmitter closer to Atlantic City) – certainly qualifies as an “inferior signal.” But you’re being unrealistic if you think that anybody can take on “B101” and win. Chancellor, and later Clear Channel, tried that with “Alice” and “Star 104.5” without success, long before Greater Media’s effort with their move-in.
Jerry Lee doesn’t answer to any stockholders or Wall Street bankers, and he’s willing to spend whatever it takes on research, billboard and TV advertising and promotion to beat any and all challengers. I certainly don’t hold CBS in very high regard, but I do think they’re smart enough not to take on Jerry. So If you want a new hot AC, dream on.
No, “blowing up” a station means eliminating the format completely. It doesn’t mean moving an existing format from one frequency to another within the same band, or moving the programming and call to the other band, and it certainly doesn’t mean beginning a simulcast. At least, not when professionals use the phrase.
We have separate figures for the two WPEN’s only because they’re not simulcasting 100 percent of the time. KCBS (740) and KFCR-FM (106.9) are 100 percent simulcast, and thus don’t need separate ratings. So we have no indication of how the KCBS audience is split between AM and FM.
Of course, they may be cannibalizing the AM audience, because even a good AM signal is going to be at a serious disadvantage in today’s electromagnetic environment. But the classic hits format they “blew up” in the fall of 2008, when they began simulcasting KCBS on FM, wasn’t worth the effort, and I suspect WYSP isn’t either.
True, the 97.5 signal – a move-in from Trenton that is now drastically short-spaced to a first-adjacent which is licensed to Millville (but which has its transmitter closer to Atlantic City) – certainly qualifies as an “inferior signal.” But you’re being unrealistic if you think that anybody can take on “B101” and win. Chancellor, and later Clear Channel, tried that with “Alice” and “Star 104.5” without success, long before Greater Media’s effort with their move-in.
Jerry Lee doesn’t answer to any stockholders or Wall Street bankers, and he’s willing to spend whatever it takes on research, billboard and TV advertising and promotion to beat any and all challengers. I certainly don’t hold CBS in very high regard, but I do think they’re smart enough not to take on Jerry. So If you want a new hot AC, dream on.
radioskeptic said:
If you want to address my arguments by impugning my credentials instead of what I said, I guess that's your right. It just shows the weakness of what you are arguing.
Anyway, if they start simulcasting all-news KYW on 94.1, what do you think the numbers will be on 1060? They'll be close to 0, yes, at least after some period of adjustment? Who is going to keep listening on AM when the same thing is available on FM?
Whether that's "blowing up" the station or not, the effect is the same. They are zeroing out the ratings on the AM signal.
radioskeptic said:
I don't know what deficiencies may exist in the signal on 106.9, which may cause some people, who can't get 106.9, to still listen on 740. But here, there is nobody in the Philadelphia market who can't get 94.1. I think we can predict that close to nobody is going to listen on AM.
radioskeptic said:
This is my entire point. For this reason, putting news on 94.1 and 1060 means 1060s numbers approach 0 fairly quickly.
radioskeptic said:
WYSP might not be, but a different music (or even younger skewing talk again) format might be. It would draw better total ratings, and perhaps different demos, when combined with what 1060 draws, than a simulcast would.
radioskeptic said:
They don't need to win. They just have to chip away.
The move makes sense if the ratings are better than WYSP's ratings, and the combined ratings of new-AC plus 1060 is better than the combined ratings of a KYW simulcast (or, for that matter, a WIP simulcast).
Mike said:
Family Radio and CBS swapped 106.9 FM and 610 AM in SF. There's a precedent there!
oasisrulz said:
In SF, Family and CBS swapped 106.9 FM and 610 AM respectively. If Family and CBS do likewise in Philly, WKDN lands on 610 AM and WIP goes to 106.9 FM. It won't take much to get WIP-FM to full power.
As I've mentioned, KCBS All News 740 AM & 106.9 FM is the #1 station in San Francisco. Based on that success, CBS would be wise to consider simulcasting KYW Newsradio on 1060 AM & 94.1 FM. 740 AM in SF is a 50 kW flamethrower and 106.9 FM is a huge class B. The precedent for all this is clear.
While I don't think it makes sense to move a successful AM format to FM or simulcast it on both, that's in the context where the company is still going to own both frequencies. It would certainly make a lot of sense to trade the AM and some cash for a new FM, and then put the AM's former format there. If the price is right.
If 106.9 is available for 610 plus the right amount of cash, that move makes a lot of sense. And I'd put sports on FM, rather than news. Keep the news and news-talk where they are. Sports benefits more from being on FM stereo than news does. And, if the teams let me, I move the Eagles and Phillies games over to 106.9 from where they are now, and I upgrade the coverage for all four teams to real stereo (the Eagles are already there).
If 106.9 is available for 610 plus the right amount of cash, that move makes a lot of sense. And I'd put sports on FM, rather than news. Keep the news and news-talk where they are. Sports benefits more from being on FM stereo than news does. And, if the teams let me, I move the Eagles and Phillies games over to 106.9 from where they are now, and I upgrade the coverage for all four teams to real stereo (the Eagles are already there).
aindik said:
Sports, all-news and news/talk are migrating to FM successfully in a number of markets. In addition to SF, all-news WTOP Washington since migrating to FM has increased both ratings and ad revenue. 'TOP is the #1 rated station in DC and is the highest billing station outside NY, Chicago and LA. The potential for a KYW simulcast on 1060 AM and 94.1 FM is very apparent.
97.5 is expected to make an offer for the Phillies' games when the contract with WPHT expires at the end of this season. IMHO, the Phillies on 97.5 could happen, since other teams (Orioles, Pirates, Tigers) have left heritage 50 kW AM blasters for FM in other markets.
Eventually, CBS is going to have to make a decision regarding WYSP. As for swapping 610 and 106.9, that's up to CBS and Family. I think it's a good move, but do both parties want to do it?
I
imhomerjay
Guest
aindik said:
Did Sunny, Alice, Now, Mix and My...and whichever other ones I'm just too tired to think of...chip away? It's hard to say definitvely since you don't have a true control situation. Did the limited audience they got come from the B, or elsewhere? Likewise hard to say for sure without the research, but in the end, the scraps they got weren't enough, and there's not a lot of reason to suspect someone else is eager to be the next one to get said scraps, at least in the near future.
On the issue of putting KYW on 94.1 FM, a couple of things.
1. A KYW staffer (still at the station today) years ago, told others in the news media that when KYW and WMMR were under one roof (and these were during WMMR's poor ratings years), management had considered putting KYW on 93.3 FM. I was there when the staffer blabbed this.
2. Whenever I'm in center city and want a traffic report on 1060, I get so much static on my car radio it makes me wonder how KYW gets the ratings that it does. I really wish they would put it on FM.
3. Something tells me that KYW on an FM (other than an HD sub channel) won't be happening.
I know the next time I buy a new car, I'm going to be interested in HD radio primarily so I can listen to KYW on WYSP HD-2.
What might be the logical solution for KYW, but I don't know if this is feasible, would be to have a low-power FM to cover center city and one or two more low power FMs in Bucks County where their signal is also weak.
Do any of the engineers out there know if a center city low power FM would be possible for KYW if third adjacency protection is eliminated? I'm guessing probably not.
1. A KYW staffer (still at the station today) years ago, told others in the news media that when KYW and WMMR were under one roof (and these were during WMMR's poor ratings years), management had considered putting KYW on 93.3 FM. I was there when the staffer blabbed this.
2. Whenever I'm in center city and want a traffic report on 1060, I get so much static on my car radio it makes me wonder how KYW gets the ratings that it does. I really wish they would put it on FM.
3. Something tells me that KYW on an FM (other than an HD sub channel) won't be happening.
I know the next time I buy a new car, I'm going to be interested in HD radio primarily so I can listen to KYW on WYSP HD-2.
What might be the logical solution for KYW, but I don't know if this is feasible, would be to have a low-power FM to cover center city and one or two more low power FMs in Bucks County where their signal is also weak.
Do any of the engineers out there know if a center city low power FM would be possible for KYW if third adjacency protection is eliminated? I'm guessing probably not.
97.5 is expected to make an offer for the Phillies' games when the contract with WPHT expires at the end of this season. IMHO, the Phillies on 97.5 could happen, since other teams (Orioles, Pirates, Tigers) have left heritage 50 kW AM blasters for FM in other markets.
97.5 is hard to pick up on a walkman
people at the ballpark will have a hard time listening to 97.5
97.5 is hard to pick up on a walkman
people at the ballpark will have a hard time listening to 97.5
radioguy39nj said:Family Radio and CBS swapped 106.9 FM and 610 AM in SF. There's a precedent there!
I don't think CBS can have another FM in the Philly market under current rules because they own two TV stations here. But the FCC wants to clear some TV spectrum for broadband use...who knows what kind of deals might be possible in the future?
Maybe what CBS should do is simulcast what is today's 610 WIP-AM on 94.1, but bid to add live Philly pro sports (Phillies, Eagles, Flyers, 76er's) only on WIP-FM in stereo, and have 610 continue on with sports talk about the games during the games for those who want to talk about the action while it's happening. Of course that's assuming CBS could win the bidding for all four teams, but any teams they win the bid to cover should be only on the future 94.1 WIP-FM. 94.1.
I believe,94.1 has a strong signal at the stadiums for those who listen to the radio coverage, where as someone noted 97.5 doesn't come in very well there. So that might give CBS the edge over WPEN-FM in the bidding for the rights to carry the games.
I believe,94.1 has a strong signal at the stadiums for those who listen to the radio coverage, where as someone noted 97.5 doesn't come in very well there. So that might give CBS the edge over WPEN-FM in the bidding for the rights to carry the games.
As far as KYW is concerned. Maybe down the road, CBS could work out a deal with Family Radio and get 106.9 and make that the new KYW-FM simulcasting on both AM/FM. However, I believe WTOP offers something different in news coverage with their AM station that isn't what their main station on FM offers. Maybe more business news - long form interviews,etc. I'm not sure as I've not heard it, but read somewhere that they are not simulcasting all of the FM's programming.
Someone here probably has better info on this and can enlighten all of us on this.
Someone here probably has better info on this and can enlighten all of us on this.
I
imhomerjay
Guest
Not necessarily. Ben has been the only thing they found that has been steady--not spectacular by any means but steady--on 95.7. Messing with that for a questionable benefit (as even in the areas 97.5 comes in it's making no headway) makes little business sense.
MikefromDelaware said:
1500 AM is WFED, Federal News Radio. WTOP broadcast on that frequency for many years, but their 50 kW signal basically went from northeast to southwest. You could hear WTOP in NYC, but not in the MD suburbs west of DC. The main station is now on 103.5 FM which blankets the areas 1500 AM couldn't reach. 'TOP set up a network of FM repeaters which effectively gives them coverage from Baltimore to Richmond.
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