I have a question for you engineer types: Can the RDS system control my presets? I had MOJO 94-9 preset in our Uplander. Since the format flip to country and then the transfer to Entercom; my preset starts at 94.9 and then switches to 103.5. I'm just wondering, could the RDS transmitter force that? I find that very weird. I re-programmed it at 94.9 and it stays now. Any thoughts?
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
RDS controlling my presets
- Thread starter faaradar
- Start date
W
WyllyWylly
Guest
RDS is not controlling your presets
Let's look at this logically.
1) Since RDS is digital in nature, this means you must not have an analog tuner, but a digital one capable of receiving RDS data.
2) FM is a one way medium. Thus, any "control" would be in the software/firmware of your tuner.
3) RDS does not have a separate transmitter, it is a subcarrier frequency at 57kHz (for math reasons) and is sent over the air with the original signal.
94.9 flipped to country after the demise of Mojo. Entercom then traded 103.5 to Cumulus for 94.9. You're confusing the programming change at 94.9 with the change in ownership, the format is irrelevant. Neither of these business moves would affect RDS, which is often one of the last things to get attention in a major move. The worst that could happen is that your tuner would display "Mojo 94.9" when what you are hearing is "The Sound" until an engineer had time to address it.
I think you just have a flaky tuner.
Let's look at this logically.
1) Since RDS is digital in nature, this means you must not have an analog tuner, but a digital one capable of receiving RDS data.
2) FM is a one way medium. Thus, any "control" would be in the software/firmware of your tuner.
3) RDS does not have a separate transmitter, it is a subcarrier frequency at 57kHz (for math reasons) and is sent over the air with the original signal.
94.9 flipped to country after the demise of Mojo. Entercom then traded 103.5 to Cumulus for 94.9. You're confusing the programming change at 94.9 with the change in ownership, the format is irrelevant. Neither of these business moves would affect RDS, which is often one of the last things to get attention in a major move. The worst that could happen is that your tuner would display "Mojo 94.9" when what you are hearing is "The Sound" until an engineer had time to address it.
I think you just have a flaky tuner.
I know that I sound crazy; and I am aware that the format change had nothing of relevance except I used that info to denote a timeline when this occurred.
The GM tuner in the Uplander had preset 4 set to 94.9. The Frequency is identified on top of the RDS data scroll. At some point after all the events unfolded; when I selected preset 4 the immediate response of the tuner was to display the numbers 94.9 on the screen. Within a second it would change to 103.5 and WGRR would play. We never listen to 103.5; so I found it rather coincidental that it switch to that frequency. Once I re-programmed the preset back to 94.9 the Sound; it stays put.
Maybe a flaky tuner; but weird how it only did on this frequency and then switched to 103.5.
The GM tuner in the Uplander had preset 4 set to 94.9. The Frequency is identified on top of the RDS data scroll. At some point after all the events unfolded; when I selected preset 4 the immediate response of the tuner was to display the numbers 94.9 on the screen. Within a second it would change to 103.5 and WGRR would play. We never listen to 103.5; so I found it rather coincidental that it switch to that frequency. Once I re-programmed the preset back to 94.9 the Sound; it stays put.
Maybe a flaky tuner; but weird how it only did on this frequency and then switched to 103.5.
C
ChippyGoldenwood
Guest
This is no joke! The EXACT same thing happened with my car. Interestingly enough, I had to manually go to 94.9 and then reprogram it into the preset for it to quit happening. It was the craziest thing ever...exactly as this person is describing. 
J
Josh_Cols
Guest
Don't know if your Uplander is equipped with this feature or not, who makes the Uplander? Your Uplander may or may not have this function called Alternate Frequency (AF for short). For instructions on how to set your car radio to take advantage of this feature, please consult your owner’s manual. On my factory Ford radio it's easy to have AF on and not know it, same with the newer GM radios. What this does, let’s say Q102 had 2 frequencies, one to cover their primary in lull areas, the primary on 101.9, and let’s say the other on 97.3. If you were driving and your AF was on, and 101.9 became weak the RDS equipped radio would know that 97.3 is stronger in the area of town where you are at and would automatically switch your radio to 97.3, and vise versa. So maybe 94.9 is set to kick your radio to 103.5 if AF is set on your radio? This may or may not be the cause, its just a thought.
I was about to ask the same questions before the thread was moved...
It sounds like they had the AF feature turned on at the encoder for some reason and had 103.5 in the AF table. Also sounds like the AF feature was turned on in the car radio.
AF was really designed for multi-station networks (such as what are often found in Europe) so that your tuner will "follow" the network along the various FM repeaters in an area. I guess it could also be used with simulcasts/translators/boosters, etc.
It sounds like they had the AF feature turned on at the encoder for some reason and had 103.5 in the AF table. Also sounds like the AF feature was turned on in the car radio.
AF was really designed for multi-station networks (such as what are often found in Europe) so that your tuner will "follow" the network along the various FM repeaters in an area. I guess it could also be used with simulcasts/translators/boosters, etc.
J
Josh_Cols
Guest
AF is also widely used out West for alot of stations that have booster signals. Out west in San Diego, I know of a few stations that use the AF, KSON is one of them, and their sister station, KYGO in Denver I beleive also uses AF for their 98.1 booster for northern Colorado. Its kind of neat to see it work, when its working for the right reasons.
E
Engineers_Rule
Guest
a little off-topic, but FWIW...
In Miami, a lot of pirates are running RDS encoders. Word from a market Chief there was the pirates would set the flag for traffic reports to change the frequency of the radio to the pirate frequency.
Been a while since I set up an RDS encoder, but this was done in Miami. The typical consumer isn't too savvy on RDS and could unknowingly have their radio set to change frequencies when a traffic alert was sent. Drove a few peeps down there nuts.
ER
In Miami, a lot of pirates are running RDS encoders. Word from a market Chief there was the pirates would set the flag for traffic reports to change the frequency of the radio to the pirate frequency.
Been a while since I set up an RDS encoder, but this was done in Miami. The typical consumer isn't too savvy on RDS and could unknowingly have their radio set to change frequencies when a traffic alert was sent. Drove a few peeps down there nuts.
ER
Kenwood aftermarkets aside, I wasn't aware any of any radios supporting more than one or two RDS/RDBS features. It's nice to know this stuff is finally taking off.
I'll bet the AF is set wrong at the station. Leaving Toronto a few years back I suddenly lost one of their stations to a similarly-formatted but unrelated London station, completely out of the blue. It was a shock! ;D
After that I turned AF off. The only people who I think would benefit from this would be NPR, or stations with a lot of translators. I'm surprised those religious organizations with hundreds of translators haven't implemented this. It would benefit their listeners, if they have any.
I'll bet the AF is set wrong at the station. Leaving Toronto a few years back I suddenly lost one of their stations to a similarly-formatted but unrelated London station, completely out of the blue. It was a shock! ;D
After that I turned AF off. The only people who I think would benefit from this would be NPR, or stations with a lot of translators. I'm surprised those religious organizations with hundreds of translators haven't implemented this. It would benefit their listeners, if they have any.
While DXing I have encountered a handful of stations transmitting *defective* AF information. For example, WSTO in Owensboro, Ky. was showing 88.1 as an alternate frequency. (the local NPR station is on 88.3 so I suppose you'd get a distorted version of that!) Another station was showing European even frequencies like 99.2 and 101.6.
If receivers are now using the AF capabilities then it would behoove stations to double-check & make sure any AF data they may be transmitting makes sense!
One station I heard last summer was transmitting an *AM* frequency in their AF list. I forget whether that frequency actually carried the same program.
I have encountered one state NPR system (Mississippi, if I recall properly) with correct AF data.
If receivers are now using the AF capabilities then it would behoove stations to double-check & make sure any AF data they may be transmitting makes sense!
One station I heard last summer was transmitting an *AM* frequency in their AF list. I forget whether that frequency actually carried the same program.
I have encountered one state NPR system (Mississippi, if I recall properly) with correct AF data.
I put those Mississippi RDS encoders in myself, they *better* be right W9WI, I owe you a frosty beverage of your choice for noticing!
It has been my understanding that the AF frequency-switching feature is only supposed to work if both stations share the same PI (Program Identification), which in the case of a composite-repeating translator they will. Unfortunately in the situation of Mississippi's Public Radio network, this means the elegant American RBDS system of encoding the individual station's call-letters is broken for the full-power secondary stations. MPB chose to use the PI of the originating station, WMPN, for all of its stations.
Then again, I have not found one receiver that turns American PI into displayed call letters. :-(
W9WI, I owe you a frosty beverage of your choice for noticing!It has been my understanding that the AF frequency-switching feature is only supposed to work if both stations share the same PI (Program Identification), which in the case of a composite-repeating translator they will. Unfortunately in the situation of Mississippi's Public Radio network, this means the elegant American RBDS system of encoding the individual station's call-letters is broken for the full-power secondary stations. MPB chose to use the PI of the originating station, WMPN, for all of its stations.
Then again, I have not found one receiver that turns American PI into displayed call letters. :-(
Hey that's cool Dr. Technical. MPB is a great example for using AF on a network. I don't think there's anywhere in this state where I can't receive a signal. I'll have to take my Walkman phone out to Greenwood (from Grenada) and listen for the frequency change.
I've never understood why this technology never took off in the US. It has taken the launching of HD for many stations to adopt the RDS for the analog signal.
I've never understood why this technology never took off in the US. It has taken the launching of HD for many stations to adopt the RDS for the analog signal.
Doctor_Technical said:I put those Mississippi RDS encoders in myself, they *better* be right
This week, I don't think "frosty" is the adjective I'm looking for <grin>!
Interesting. I hadn't heard that.
Some of us have noticed that most Clear Channel stations are running the "wrong" PIs, usually around 101-something. I've heard vague reports it has something to do with the traffic flag but nothing definite.
http://www.w9wi.com/articles/rds.html
which isn't exactly portable<grin>.
FWIW My Walkman phone takes about six seconds (!) to switch frequencies. I was going to see if the Supertalk stations do it, but could never get a reliable lock on 96.9 (Greenwood) or 105.5 (Water Valley). It lights up the indicator, but nothing happens on the display. They've been weird lately anyway, I've had trouble with keeping the stereo lit on the Greenwood station.
Are there any stations in the US/Canada that use the traffic flag? In all the years I had my Kenwood car stereo, I never had it activate on any station...
Are there any stations in the US/Canada that use the traffic flag? In all the years I had my Kenwood car stereo, I never had it activate on any station...
Zach, did you mean your walkman auto-switched stations via AF?
Re the traffic flag, I can tell you about one civilian here in Baton Rouge who knows what the traffic flag is, and uses it when available. The attending physician where I got my flu shot spotted my company logo shirt and asked "hey, is that RDS?". After I got over not having to explain 40 ways to Sunday how RDS works (and this is to radio people), he told me that he travels a lot and uses that feature in other cities to scan the dial looking for stations that offer traffic reports.
Just proves the old radio adage "you never know who is listening..."
And yes, I've seen a few stations with the TP flag set. Looking at my Aztec analyzer, I see that the Citadel/BR stations have it set, the CC/BR don't. Sometimes I see it on stations that in no way would ever broadcast a traffic report.
What I'll bet you rarely see is the dynamic TA flag, which means "I'm running traffic now" and will switch a car radio from CD/tape to FM while the flag is set. That requires some artful setup of the RDS encoder, and a way to send a command (or contact closure) while the traffic announcement is running.
Re the traffic flag, I can tell you about one civilian here in Baton Rouge who knows what the traffic flag is, and uses it when available. The attending physician where I got my flu shot spotted my company logo shirt and asked "hey, is that RDS?". After I got over not having to explain 40 ways to Sunday how RDS works (and this is to radio people), he told me that he travels a lot and uses that feature in other cities to scan the dial looking for stations that offer traffic reports.
Just proves the old radio adage "you never know who is listening..."
And yes, I've seen a few stations with the TP flag set. Looking at my Aztec analyzer, I see that the Citadel/BR stations have it set, the CC/BR don't. Sometimes I see it on stations that in no way would ever broadcast a traffic report.
What I'll bet you rarely see is the dynamic TA flag, which means "I'm running traffic now" and will switch a car radio from CD/tape to FM while the flag is set. That requires some artful setup of the RDS encoder, and a way to send a command (or contact closure) while the traffic announcement is running.
Doctor_Technical said:
Yes. I had it on in the car today when I went to Batesville. I had a preset for 90.9 out of Greenwood and was listening. Once I hit an area where it was very weak, a box popped up saying "Updating Frequency" and after a few seconds, it was on 90.3...
Manually tuning to 90.9 after the first "update" though and the switch to 90.3 was much quicker, almost seamless.
I'll probably turn the AF back off though because once on, when I switch to a non-RDS station that "Updating Frequency" box appears for almost 30 seconds at a time! Oh, and it replaced the preset with 90.3, for some reason. So I had two presets with the same frequency. *grr*
RE: AF
Iv'e had to do the factory reset on brand new out of the box Inovonics 712/713 RDS generators after discovering they had muliple frequencies in the list.
Iv'e had to do the factory reset on brand new out of the box Inovonics 712/713 RDS generators after discovering they had muliple frequencies in the list.
- Status