? re kinescopes in early network TV

[Ultimajock]

...I suspect it's not the case, but I'm still curious enough to ask -- outside of clips used on anniversary shows (I've Got a Secret and What's My Line? come most immediately to mind) or instances where the star of a show was too ill to perform (I have a Milton Berle Show on a DVD where this was the case), were kinescopes of live productions ever used for rerun purposes on the actual network line? Or were they strictly for (a) affiliates who time-shifted or couldn't carry a show live, or (b) reference purposes (documenting when an ad or sketch was run)?...

 

[Bob1370]

All kinds of multi-network affiliates in what had been one and two station markets (especially before ABC got a lot of affiliates up and running between 1959 and 1965 across the country) kinescoped shows all the time, until they installed their first 2" videotape machines in the late 50s...it was how they checkerboarded their schedules to air shows at the most advantageous times. They often held on to those shows for a while to rerun them during the following spring and summer, and a few of those rerun films never got scrapped, but just filed away. You never know which ones will survive--occasional episodes of a lot of shows that were fed live but time-shifted in a lot of markets pop up from time to time.

The other main source of kinescopes from all the networks, and the reason why we have a fair number of them from the 1948-53 era, is the process of filming and then shipping shows to West Coast affiliates that weren't yet hooked up to the national cable and microwave network--along with the kinescoping of some Hollywood-produced live shows for airing back east. although more of those were conventionally filmed from the start.

 

[hubcity]

...I suspect it's not the case, but I'm still curious enough to ask -- outside of clips used on anniversary shows (I've Got a Secret and What's My Line? come most immediately to mind) or instances where the star of a show was too ill to perform (I have a Milton Berle Show on a DVD where this was the case), were kinescopes of live productions ever used for rerun purposes on the actual network line? Or were they strictly for (a) affiliates who time-shifted or couldn't carry a show live, or (b) reference purposes (documenting when an ad or sketch was run)?...

I'm thinking the right answer is "if they needed to use them, they gritted their teeth and used them." There may have been a guideline against it, and I'd bet that's why there was such a thing as a "summer replacement show" (e.g. advertisers would prefer to pay money to advertise on a new summer replacement project versus on a rerun kinescope) but I'm sure it was inevitable on occasion (or more cost-effective) that they'd run with what they had.

 

[anotherguyTN]

All kinds of multi-network affiliates in what had been one and two station markets (especially before ABC got a lot of affiliates up and running between 1959 and 1965 across the country) kinescoped shows all the time, until they installed their first 2" videotape machines in the late 50s...it was how they checkerboarded their schedules to air shows at the most advantageous times. They often held on to those shows for a while to rerun them during the following spring and summer, and a few of those rerun films never got scrapped, but just filed away. You never know which ones will survive--occasional episodes of a lot of shows that were fed live but time-shifted in a lot of markets pop up from time to time.

Would this be where some of the rare early videotapes that pop up from time to time, like the one with President Eisenhower, the final episode of Howdy Doody, etc. that have been discussed here come from as well? Considering how video tape was reused, and the reputation the nrtworks (especially NBC) had for trashing videotapes from that no matter how historic it might be, it's a miracle that even what few items that have been found have survived.

 

[Bob1370]

"Would this be where some of the rare early videotapes that pop up from time to time, like the one with President Eisenhower, the final episode of Howdy Doody, etc. that have been discussed here come from as well?"

The Eisenhower tape for certain, and perhaps the 1960 Howdy Doody finale as well, appears to have come from NBC O&O WRC-TV in Washington. They seem to have been a little better about saving old recordings, especially of DC-orignated programming, than WNBC was in saving network or NYC-based local productions.

 

[wbhist]

"Would this be where some of the rare early videotapes that pop up from time to time, like the one with President Eisenhower, the final episode of Howdy Doody, etc. that have been discussed here come from as well?"

The Eisenhower tape for certain, and perhaps the 1960 Howdy Doody finale as well, appears to have come from NBC O&O WRC-TV in Washington. They seem to have been a little better about saving old recordings, especially of DC-orignated programming, than WNBC was in saving network or NYC-based local productions.

The Eisenhower tape was recorded out of Burbank, and so presumably was the Howdy Doody finale. The 100 Hz-5 kHz telco audio is one clue. One YouTube user put up, in four parts, an early 1960 color videotape of The Steve Allen Plymouth Show which, by that time, originated from Burbank. So Burbank may've been better in videotape preservation back then, than New York.

 

[visaman]

The program sponsors would have a kinney, as proof that their advertisements did appear in their programs.

 

[Limp73]

The other main source of kinescopes from all the networks, and the reason why we have a fair number of them from the 1948-53 era, is the process of filming and then shipping shows to West Coast affiliates that weren't yet hooked up to the national cable and microwave network--along with the kinescoping of some Hollywood-produced live shows for airing back east. although more of those were conventionally filmed from the start.

The latter may hold true as in the case of You Bet Your Life/The Best Of Groucho and People Are Funny. Both these programs were actually filmed and as such the picture quality was much better than a kinnie for obvious reasons.since most TV stations were still using the film chain and videotape was still back then a luxury.


Speaking of summer replacements that were ever so common in the 50s I can remember a few from my childhood.

Perry Presents-the summer replacement for The Perry Como Show
and
The Chevy Show-likewise for The Dinah Shore Chevy Show.

..but that wasn't limited to live/kinescoped programs...many filmed shows also had a summer replacement..I can think of one:

Vacation Playhouse-unsold pilot episodes filmed by Desilu was the summer replacement for The Lucy Show in the 1960s.

 

[searadiofreak]

"The Eisenhower tape was recorded out of Burbank, and so presumably was the Howdy Doody finale. The 100 Hz-5 kHz telco audio is one clue. One YouTube user put up, in four parts, an early 1960 color videotape of The Steve Allen Plymouth Show which, by that time, originated from Burbank. So Burbank may've been better in videotape preservation back then, than New York."
[/quote]

I found segment 3 of this Steve Allen Plymouth Show particularly interesting as Steve goes up into the audience and chats with them in what would later become Johnny Carson's L.A. studio, if I'm not mistaken. Steve really shows his skill for this, talking with the well-tailored TV audience in color. Also notice at 3:37 he throws out a line much the same way Conan or Jay would today. Imitation that has lasted for 50 years!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UduuHYsCwBs&feature=related

 

[FreddyE1977]

I'm guessing the cost of storage, due to the very high cost of real estate, was always an issue in New York.
In other parts of the country you likely did not have the same pressure to pitch stuff and free up storage space.

 

[therealjm12]

I once worked at a very old TV station that at one time took programing from the four nets ABC CBS NBC & Dumont (long before my time). They recorded their own kinescopes from the network feeds from At&T. I often wondered what happened to those kinescopes. I did ask but anyone that would have known were long gone. Probably ended up in the dumpster. Can you imagine finding those films?

 

[Ultimajock]

I once worked at a very old TV station that at one time took programing from the four nets ABC CBS NBC & Dumont (long before my time). They recorded their own kinescopes from the network feeds from At&T.

...what station would that be? I know WTMJ-TV/3 (later 4) Milwaukee was NBC primary and ABC/CBS/DuMont secondary for the first five or so years of its existence, and was proud to have Chicago-level production services for decades (Journal had pretty much thought of itself as "Chicago Tribune North" in most everything they did, both print and broadcast) but I also wonder how many other stations had the facilities to produce their own kinnies...

 

[therealjm12]

...what station would that be?

WKTV in Utica. As I said, long before my time and I never saw the equiptment. The station was a big money maker, and still is. So I don't know if the equiptment was considered 1st class back in the day.

 

[The King Bee]

Just where are the networks' master archives for film and videotape (besides the production companies/producers/stars' own archives)? And what does the Library Of Congress have in their West Virginia restoration center and archive?

I can understand if the nets keep the exact location of their storage under wraps.

 

[Bob1370]

"WKTV in Utica."

Who knows if those kinescopes are still around in a back storage room somewhere in Utica, either at the studio or at their transmitter? Anything's possible. Back in the 70s WHEN-TV in Syracuse had a big back room on the second floor of their James Street building, originally intended fior use as another big studio but not fully fitted out for the job at least as of that time, that was full of old RCA TK-11 cameras (still apparently usable), not to mention old films (which might have included kinescopes of old shows from their pre-1962 multiple-network days) and records. Stumbled on it once while I was working a weekend shift at their sister radio station and looking for old news audio tape for a story. Maybe WKTV kept that kind of stuff too. Love to see if any of those treasure-troves were kept by either station down the years to today. (I know WROC-TV in Rochester still has news film and copy archives, and some old shows too, dating back to at least the early 1950s and maybe even to their signon in 1949--but then again they're still located in the same studio and office building they signed on from 62 years ago, and have never moved.)

Like a lot of stations, iWKTV changed hands several times over the last 60+ years and probably studio locations as well. Not to mention dial position; they moved from Channel 13 down to Channel 2 in the late 50s to make room for Channel 13 stations in Rochester (WOKR, now WHAM-TV) and Albany (WAST, now WNYT). If those kinescopes are still around someplace they're worth a ton--either to the original producers, who'll want to buy them to resell to nostalgia networks, or to syndicate in their own right if they've passed into the public domain like a lot of early TV productions now have.

 

[therealjm12]

I stopped in WKTV last week while I was in town. A couple people are still there from the 70's. We discussed the kinescopes and decided the only one that would have knowledge of the kinescopes was the film editor and he passed away about 15 years ago. He was there from the early 50's to the early 80's. Maybe he took some home with him. He was never married so I would guess any family members (if there are any) would have simply thrown them away.
There is a 2" tape of Dick Clark doing news on WKTV when he was about 19. I have seen the tape-actually film transfer. I spent a lot of time and effort trying to track that down. We finally decided one of the engineers took it and put it in his cellar. He has since passed away and his widow & son knew nothing about it.
WKTV is in the original building from the 1940's on Smith Hill. It is pretty cramped. No space to store to store such stuff. No rafters or cellar. The out buildings store the live trucks. The old WIBX-FM building across the street is used for production. The transmitter was moved to just north of Herkimer about 20 miles east of the studio when they dropped from channel 13 to 2 in 1959. The original tower is still behind the studio and is used today for PBS, some FM's and two-ways.
Here are some vintage photos from the early days of broadcasting "high atop Smith Hill" television & WKTV
-enjoy. http://www.uticarememberwhen.com/CoffeCupSlideShow/WKTV/WKTV.asp