Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

[Play Freebird]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

This is a very useful tool, which I've mentioned in another thread. The purpose is to show how much the digital power can be raised without causing harm to first-adjacent neighbors. Word has it that the large group IBOC proponents are rather upset about this, because it would appear to eliminate most of their major market stations from further digital power increases.

Those of you who have this business twenty years or so will probably remember the outcry from the big guys when Class A stations wanted an across-the-board increase from 3 kW to 6 kW. That proposal requested only 3 dB, but the major groups joined forces with NAB to shoot it down. So the rule adopted by the FCC only permits Class A stations to raise power in situations where there is an additional margin of separation to neighboring Class B and C facilities. Otherwise, the Class A station must maintain 3 kW equivalent facilities towards affected neighbors.

So I have no problem at all with NPR's findings. The precedent has already been set.

 

[Savage]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

This is why: either way the arguments fall, HD Radio is toast. Maybe not in the next 6 months or 9 months, but inevitably.

iBiquity may not like NPR's findings, but as much as pubcasters have invested in HD (read: multicasting) they're not going to engage in self-immolation. NPR's support for HD is essential. They won't live with unacceptable levels of interference just to ingratiate themselves to the dwindling and increasingly desperate HD pushers like CBS, Greater Media and....hmm. (The list does keep getting shorter, doesn't it??) So look for pubcasters to virgorously oppose -10 dBc.

But (see RW this week) HD fanatics have drawn the line in the sand, saying -20 dBc just won't work (lamely saying their initial research on HD's rollout with 1% digital was hobbled by the "limited resources" of the NRSC. Give me a freakin' break already.)

So that's where we are: -10 dBc won't work because of interference. -20 dBc won't work because of lousy coverage. (BTW, -10 dBc won't correct many coverage situations either in the real world, notwithstanding highly implausible and sketchy research conducted by iBiquity/the Alliance.) Car manufacturers are edging towards the exits. Receiver manufacturers have bailed long ago.

And if these rapidly-gathering storm clouds aren't enough to doom HD, there is the basic truism that even if -10 dBc would provide acceptable coverage and NOT generate unacceptable interference, most transmitter sites won't be able to accomodate the power hike and would require ground-up reconstruction. In this economic climate, that just isn't going to happen.

Nighty-night, HD. All that remains is for someone to issue a map of the United States and a giant-size pooper scooper to Bob Struble, Glynn Walden, Peter Smyth, Jeff Littlejohn, Tom Ray, Cris Alexander, etc....

 

[stormy01]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

So WHY can't lawsuits be filed against the FCC, iBiquity, etc. to stop IBOC??

Is there really a way to STOP this madness, once and for all??

 

[radioskeptic]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

As Savage noted in Reply #2...

iBiquity may not like NPR's findings, but as much as pubcasters have invested in HD (read: multicasting) they're not going to engage in self-immolation. NPR's support for HD is essential. They won't live with unacceptable levels of interference just to ingratiate themselves to the dwindling and increasingly desperate HD pushers like CBS, Greater Media and....hmm. (The list does keep getting shorter, doesn't it??) So look for pubcasters to virgorously oppose -10 dBc.

Ah, yes. Multicasting. It’s only the pubcasters who have done programming of any merit on their HD-2 and -3 streams. And that’s probably the only reason they haven’t bailed on Ibiquity already.

But they don’t need “HD” for multicasting. For less than half the annual salary of a part-timer, any station could install and use FMeXtra. They wouldn’t have to abandon the poor schlemiels who bought “HD” radios from the NPR Shop immediately. They could simulcast their secondary programs in “HD” and FMeXtra for a period – maybe a year – and then shut off the “HD,” if only to save on the electric bill!

If only one major public station in each of the top ten markets would do this, or even only one each in five of the top ten markets would, and if NPR would start promoting FMeXtra radios from the NPR Shop on the air, as they did with “HD” radios, the game would be over for Iniquity Digital Corp!

(For the newcomers who are unfamiliar with FMeXtra, see http://insidemusicmedia.blogspot.com/2007/08/beyond-ibiquitys-hd-radio.html , and follow the links in the endnotes. It was written two years ago, and Digital Radio Express, the company that developed FMeXtra, has changed its name to VuCast in order to de-emphasize the use of the system as anything but an alternative to traditional analog SCA’s. But FMeXtra still has the potential to replace “HD” with none of the harm associated with Iniquity’s junk technology.)

 

[KB1OKL]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

There is one question that I have always asked, but has never been answered - with the ARRL beating the FCC in court over BPL interference to amateur radio, why haven't non-HD broadcsters done the same thing? It seems that the precedence has been set, so are non-HD broadcasters waiting for the results of the FM-HD power increase? If non-HD broadcasters lose revenues over interference, can't lawsuits be filed against the FCC, iBiquity, etc...

I've been wondering the same thing for a while myself. Why don't all the non-IBOC'ers join together and do a class action suit or something, what do you think Bob S? Could this be done, is there a will for it amongst radio owners and operators? I'm a ham and have watched the mostly successful litigation the ARRL has done on behalf of hams over BPL and wonder why the stations can't band together and do the same thing.

 

[Savage]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

BTW, Sherry - somebody thinks they're going to "force automakers to adopt HD?" That attempt would be highly entertaining to watch. Nobody "forces" automakers to do anything. It's like trying to herd cats. The only way to "force" HD into cars is with a massive XM-Sirius style infusion of cash.

As far as "HD filtering out interference," that's just not true. HD ratchets up self-interference and adjacent channel interference and thus makes quality reception generally more difficult, not easier. I don't even think pathologically-lying iBiquity would have the chutzpah to post a whopper THAT big, so I suspect the post you read was merely from one of the uninformed.

Several posters have asked about a class-action lawsuit. Sure, somebody could start one - but who? you'd need a class of several dozen identifiable plaintiffs with tangible claims. Even if you could get a big, high-powered law firm on board on a contingency-fee basis, the suit's expenses would still have to be paid - which could easily run to $100K or more. Without a contingent-fee action, legal fees alone could top a quarter million. Where's it going to come from?

Then there's the problem of quantifying damages. How do you assign a monetary value to lousing up reception all over the AM band? WYSL could allege loss of advertising revenue due to WBZ interference, but beyond that....who's willing to step up and offer a quantifiable claim?

Bear in mind: even if you could clear those hurdles, there's still no guarantee of success. And there is a threshold jurisdictional issue which alone could cost thousands to litigate - the HD nuts would hide behind a highly-connected Washington law firm and argue that the whole interference issue is actually the FCC's arena. This could be a tough issue to get past.

 

[Play Freebird]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

I expect HD to die of natural (i.e. economic) causes after the CEOs of the major groups which are still backing this system finally get the message that there will be no return on investment.

As I've said before, FM IBOC transmitting equipment is generally inefficient and requires more building space and HVAC, and additional tower space if an aux antenna is used for digital transmission (aka space-combining) . One problem with the space-combining approach is that the aux antenna must be patched back to the analog transmitter in case of work on the main antenna, so you really need a second fully-equipped site or a third aux antenna to maintain the digital signal during tower work or emergencies, and at a rental site, this gets expensive.

IBOC equipment needs more engineering support, which also costs money. In a thread currently running on the Public Radio reflector about "HD Radio Manpower", some engineers have reported a 30 to 40 percent increase in workload. I do feel bad for the guy whose Exporter keeps crashing; he reports that he has needed to replace its motherboard and hard drive already, yet it still locks up on a regular basis... plus the dummy load resistors in the reject load have to be replaced every two years and transmitter PA modules are failing earlier than expected. Folks, this digital equipment is, what -- three or four years old? Transmitters are supposed to run ten to twenty years without needing major repairs like this. He says his Exporter stops working when it rains, and sometimes takes down the analog with it! Of course when the analog fails, then the station gets flooded with listener complaints.

I won't even get into the cost of rebuilding some AM directional arrays to pass an HD signal -- now we're talking major bucks. If this money actually helped to improve night coverage or allowed daytimers to operate full time, then the investment might make sense. But IBOC was designed not to do this.

As Savage says, a class action lawsuit would probably be a waste of time and money. Just keep telling the truth -- and be patient.

 

[Savage]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

D'accord, Freebird. I think a far better strategy - borne out by the relative success of "naysayers" (like me) versus the abject, almost laughable serial failures of HD Radio - is to loudly and repeatedly tell the truth about this cynically-foisted Rube Goldberg engineering disaster.

With each new appearance of missteps, gaffes, fibbery and misfortunes - we document it here and in trade periodicals and on our website www.stopiboc.com. We use provable facts and common sense and promptly answer each new barrage of lies from iBiquity and the Alliance and its pro-HD nuts. Among the thoughtful, honest industry professionals, reality resonates. Any thought of crazily venturing out onto the wobbly HD limb gets squelched by reason and self-preservation.

As a bonus, inevitably the pro-HD faction helps us out with salvos of inappropriate personally-directed invective - Guy Wire comes to mind. This seriously compromises the HD faction's already highly tenuous credibility and lends credence to our case.

In time, pragmatism and truth prevail. Sic Transit HD and its noisily impotent band of self-interested liars.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

I expect HD to die of natural (i.e. economic) causes after the CEOs of the major groups which are still backing this system finally get the message that there will be no return on investment.

Unfortunately, I've already despaired of that happening. Since the economy tanked, all the major groups that comprise the HD Alliance have had to endure massive layoffs, in some cases as much as 10% of their payrolls, and stock prices have plunged to almost non-existence for some groups. But, HD goes wearily on with, as you point out, zero ROI. If it isn't already staring them in the face under these conditions, then when will it?

 

[stacker]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

Good observations. Especially regarding AM. Why continue the hiss when no-one is buying?

I'm listening to a talk show at 4PM on one of our local HD AM stations running a newer Nautel and the background hiss is obvious.

One station is this market running a Harris transmitter with HD, 50 kW non-D day, 50 kW DA night, has a HUGE amount of hiss on it's daytime and nighttime signal. At night, the station sounds like it's being fed down an old 3kHz telco loop.

AM has enough challenges already. Adding HD to the mix creates a self interfering mode. If you're driving around and reach a point where re-radiation causes the sidebands to reach your receiver out of phase, what happens? The signal is overtaken by the transmitted hiss.

What's the deal? Have the big groups thrown over their AM stations just to stay in compliance with their Ibiquity obligations? Why in the hell would you transmit a signal that creates self-interference? I don't get it.

 

[Savage]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

To really understand the dynamics, you have to understand the psychology and inexpertise inside major radio groups. You also have to understand that about 15 to 20 years ago, radio management was taken over by people who are generic sales achievers - not technically savvy career radio broadcasters. As such today's typical radio manager is uniquely vulnerable to the obtuse blue-sky promises dangled by HD promoters. Radio managment used to pride themselves on having engineering insight; today they could care less. So they've got big SUCKER tattoos on their foreheads.

As Freebird has noted, over 25 years of scheming and war games have gone into this attempt at digital hegemony. Hundreds of millions of development has gone into a hybrid digital-analog scheme which attempts to maintain big groups' monopoly of major radio signals while simultaneously recouping investment from other non-
Alliance broadcasters. And it's all going disastrously wrong, the product of avarice and engineering ignorance.

No matter how much handwriting about the HD disaster is apparent on the wall, nobody wants to take the long walk down the hallway to the boardroom to announce: "We blew it. HD just isn't going to fly." That's career suicide. So HD's proponents will simply stubbornly cling to this dead-as-Elvis "innovation" until the last possible moment. Most people in broadcasting are simply waiting it out - waiting for it to go away.

It's already happening. As has been noted on this board, the initial roster of radio groups investing in HD and iBiquity numbered something like 16. Now it's down to 4 or 5.

Talk to any sales engineer about HD equipment sales: there aren't any. Station conversions have essentially stopped. HD receiver sales have gotten a tiny temporary bump from curiosity and insider-sales of the hugely-hyped Insignia personal portable, but that's about it. Press coverage on HD continues to be brutal.

Back to group radio: right now, they're distracted by stock values in freefall and massive debt-burden management problems. Nobody's interested in making doomsday decisions about HD, so they'll just let iBiquity and NPR slug out the 10% injection issue. If it works, fine. If it doesn't, we'll pretend everything's okay and ignore the whole situation until it goes away of its own accord.

As far as HD-AM goes, even though nobody remotely believes it's a workable system any more, they'll keep it on until they decide to abandon HD altogether. To do otherwise sends 'the wrong signal.'

Memo to corporate radio about its current stack of woe: as John Wayne said, "Life's tough. It's even tougher when you're stupid." Hey - "how's that HD Radio thing working out for ya??"

 

[pocket-radio]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

I sell radio advertising and spend time walking into car dealer showrooms.

It kills me, new car showrooms are decorated with XM/Sirious advertising, but to date I've seen nothing about HD.

What does that tell you?

 

[ve3jf]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

NPR's power increase calculator is interesting, but it's too simplistic to be really useful. Contours based on FCC F(50,50) and F(50,10) curves are a convenient device for regulatory purposes, but they do a lousy job of predicting actual coverage and the extent of interference. I think NPR realizes this too, but they put out this simple formula as a stopgap, in case the FCC was in the mood to grant some kind of immediate power increase. Use of the formula would at least prevent some of the worst cases of interference from materializing. NPR has already done studies using far more sophisticated propagation prediction tools and interference modeling for many stations, showing the areas of potential interference and quantifying the impact in terms of population. This is the only reasonable way to approach the question of a managed power increase (if any) - not some simple formula based on FCC contours and spacing.

 

[ve3jf]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

[EDIT-quote removed]

Multicasting doesn't add to the IBOC footprint, at least in terms of interference to other stations - it simply slices the 96 kb/s payload into more than one stream. There is another means of multicasting though, that involves using the so-called "extended hybrid" modes - they add more digital carriers closer to the analog signal, providing up to 50 kb/s additional capacity. These carriers will increase the self-interference to the host analog signal, but won't create much additional adjacent channel interference.

Was NPR hoodwinked? Yes, I believe they were, along with just about everybody else, when the NRSC DAB Subcommittee (stacked with IBOC proponents) "evaluated" the IBOC system and downplayed or ignored the potential interference problems.

 

[stormy01]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

I sell radio advertising and spend time walking into car dealer showrooms.

It kills me, new car showrooms are decorated with XM/Sirious advertising, but to date I've seen nothing about HD.

What does that tell you?

Even car dealers know what works. So does the man/woman on the street. Only the Corporate Suits are living in denial. Better get them to a HDA (HD Anonymous) meeting quick!

 

[VeteranPD]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

NPR needs to stay out of this. Their study has not been conducted for what is "good for broadcasting" but rather to promote what is "good for NPR." If NPR is not happy that many of their stations may be hurt by the proposed power increase they need to just suck it up..the way daytime stations have had to for years along with those station that have had to suffer with poor directional signals. NPR is no friend to commercial radio, college radio, epsecially the last surviving Class-Ds. NPR is a friend to NPR.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

I sell radio advertising and spend time walking into car dealer showrooms.

It kills me, new car showrooms are decorated with XM/Sirious advertising, but to date I've seen nothing about HD.

What does that tell you?

Not quite what you think. It says that iBiquity isn't ponying up the kind of money XM and Sirius (when they were separate companies) paid to get their product into dashboards.

So, of course, instead of doing what they had to do, they ran like cry-babies to the FCC to try to get them to do their dirty work for them, via regulation. We all know how that turned out.

 

[fybush]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

NPR needs to stay out of this. Their study has not been conducted for what is "good for broadcasting" but rather to promote what is "good for NPR." If NPR is not happy that many of their stations may be hurt by the proposed power increase they need to just suck it up..the way daytime stations have had to for years along with those station that have had to suffer with poor directional signals. NPR is no friend to commercial radio, college radio, epsecially the last surviving Class-Ds. NPR is a friend to NPR.

I disagree strongly with this assertion.

Remember the days when CBS and RCA operated research labs to advance the future of broadcast technology, and all the developments that came out of those laboratories? Those days are gone, and those labs are closed. NAB, which was once a strong voice for broadcast engineering, is now pretty much exclusively a lobbying organization. None of the big commercial radio groups are running any sort of engineering laboratory that I know of, either.

So who's left to do any kind of research on broadcast technology? From where I sit, it looks like NPR Labs is about the only organization carrying that torch these days. And their studies seem to me to be fair and solidly researched. The FCC certainly gives their research a lot of weight.

You may not like public radio or its member stations, but I don't think your smear of the good people at NPR Labs is justified by the facts.

 

[Play Freebird]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

NPR needs to stay out of this. Their study has not been conducted for what is "good for broadcasting" but rather to promote what is "good for NPR." If NPR is not happy that many of their stations may be hurt by the proposed power increase they need to just suck it up..the way daytime stations have had to for years along with those station that have had to suffer with poor directional signals. NPR is no friend to commercial radio, college radio, epsecially the last surviving Class-Ds. NPR is a friend to NPR.

So then, how do you feel about NAB's involvement? From the comments I've seen, NAB is all about what's best for iBiquity, large group owners which have invested in iBiquity, and the television broadcasters (NAB opposes reuse of 76-88 MHz as an expanded radio band) -- not the radio industry at large, nor the public interest.

Sure, I would expect NPR to look out for themselves, but I must say NPR has a much better grip on the technical realities of this issue than NAB, the "Joint Commentors", HD Alliance, etc.

 

[calstymes]

Re: NPR Lab's FM-HD Power Increase Calculator

Sherry Homme aptly observes:

[EDIT-quote removed]

So, if I understand this correctly, we have a fascinating situation here. NPR (which we knew had a very special "understanding" with the iBiquitous folks) has now permitted some "real" data to be released by its own laboratories, thereby killing what they fought so hard to achieve in earlier days? This is positively fabulous for the public.

I wonder what changed NPR's attitude about and perspective on this? Was it the really the "real" data its own laboratories produced? Or rather, did something happen which strained the iBiquitous / NPR relationship? Somebody at NPR should be interviewed. Get the guy at NPR who pushed all this from the start. Surely he can be coaxed into speaking and no doubt he'd have a lot to say (if he were to talk at all).