As a dxer, I notice a coverage loss for some FM stations, that the general public doesn't. In Cincinnati, before WEBN (102.7) started running IBOC, I was able to receive a 102.9 out of Springfield, but that is no longer possible. But how many people in Cincinnati cares that WEBN's ajacient can't be heard in Cincinnati?? This may sound harsh, but the only people adversly impacted by IBOC are dxers.
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Reality about the impact of FM IBOC
- Thread starter Len14043
- Start date
K
k9ez
Guest
> As a dxer, I notice a coverage loss for some FM stations,
> that the general public doesn't. In Cincinnati, before WEBN
> (102.7) started running IBOC, I was able to receive a 102.9
> out of Springfield, but that is no longer possible. But how
> many people in Cincinnati cares that WEBN's ajacient can't
> be heard in Cincinnati?? This may sound harsh, but the only
> people adversly impacted by IBOC are dxers.
>
I am a DXer too. It really depends on where you are in relation to the HD transmitter. Remember that the HD signal is 1/100 the power of the analog signal. In other words a 15000 w FM is transmitting HD at about 150W. One would think that you could null out a 150w college station. Therefore you **should** be able to null out an HD station. Notice I said SHOULD. HD seems to be a little more aggressive and may be harder to null.
> that the general public doesn't. In Cincinnati, before WEBN
> (102.7) started running IBOC, I was able to receive a 102.9
> out of Springfield, but that is no longer possible. But how
> many people in Cincinnati cares that WEBN's ajacient can't
> be heard in Cincinnati?? This may sound harsh, but the only
> people adversly impacted by IBOC are dxers.
>
I am a DXer too. It really depends on where you are in relation to the HD transmitter. Remember that the HD signal is 1/100 the power of the analog signal. In other words a 15000 w FM is transmitting HD at about 150W. One would think that you could null out a 150w college station. Therefore you **should** be able to null out an HD station. Notice I said SHOULD. HD seems to be a little more aggressive and may be harder to null.
W
westlife
Guest
> As a dxer, I notice a coverage loss for some FM stations,
> that the general public doesn't. In Cincinnati, before WEBN
> (102.7) started running IBOC, I was able to receive a 102.9
> out of Springfield, but that is no longer possible. But how
> many people in Cincinnati cares that WEBN's ajacient can't
> be heard in Cincinnati?? This may sound harsh, but the only
> people adversly impacted by IBOC are dxers.
Take a look at the Arbitron ratings for Trenton, NJ. The ratings for the NYC stations have all suddenly gone down in Trenton since the nearby Philadelphia stations started transmitting FM IBOC, thus leaving the adjacent NYC stations with noisy, staticky, hiss-filled signals. Even on an excellent car radio, in Trenton the NYC signals which are not adjacent to any IBOC signal are in clear stereo, while the NYC which are unfortunately next to IBOC hash can only be received in hissy mono.
IBOC will not last long when stations realize that in exchange for gaining a few dozen local listeners to their "HD2" channels, they are losing thousands of fringe-area analog listeners. You can be that at some point the "HD2" channels will be continued as Internet audio streams only, and the IBOC signals will be turned off.
<P ID="signature">______________
Honorary Member of <a target="_blank" href=http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/>The Apostrophe Protection Society</a></P>
> that the general public doesn't. In Cincinnati, before WEBN
> (102.7) started running IBOC, I was able to receive a 102.9
> out of Springfield, but that is no longer possible. But how
> many people in Cincinnati cares that WEBN's ajacient can't
> be heard in Cincinnati?? This may sound harsh, but the only
> people adversly impacted by IBOC are dxers.
Take a look at the Arbitron ratings for Trenton, NJ. The ratings for the NYC stations have all suddenly gone down in Trenton since the nearby Philadelphia stations started transmitting FM IBOC, thus leaving the adjacent NYC stations with noisy, staticky, hiss-filled signals. Even on an excellent car radio, in Trenton the NYC signals which are not adjacent to any IBOC signal are in clear stereo, while the NYC which are unfortunately next to IBOC hash can only be received in hissy mono.
IBOC will not last long when stations realize that in exchange for gaining a few dozen local listeners to their "HD2" channels, they are losing thousands of fringe-area analog listeners. You can be that at some point the "HD2" channels will be continued as Internet audio streams only, and the IBOC signals will be turned off.
<P ID="signature">______________
Honorary Member of <a target="_blank" href=http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/>The Apostrophe Protection Society</a></P>
> As a dxer, I notice a coverage loss for some FM stations,
> that the general public doesn't. In Cincinnati, before WEBN
> (102.7) started running IBOC, I was able to receive a 102.9
> out of Springfield, but that is no longer possible. But how
> many people in Cincinnati cares that WEBN's ajacient can't
> be heard in Cincinnati?? This may sound harsh, but the only
> people adversly impacted by IBOC are dxers.
Sorry to break this to you but DXers aren't important to broadcasters. Analog broadcasting has protected contours that often are minimally affected by interfering signals. With IBUZ, the interference is often severe. Once all stations light up with IBUZ, stations will become local. A perfect example is WBZ and KDKA. While WBZ's IBUZ is operating KDKA can't be received in Western MA. KDKA bombs in after 6pm when IBUZ shuts down.
The prevailing attitude is that stations should no longer expect any listening beyond their legally protected contour, especially on AM. DXing will be an historic novelty.
Rich
> that the general public doesn't. In Cincinnati, before WEBN
> (102.7) started running IBOC, I was able to receive a 102.9
> out of Springfield, but that is no longer possible. But how
> many people in Cincinnati cares that WEBN's ajacient can't
> be heard in Cincinnati?? This may sound harsh, but the only
> people adversly impacted by IBOC are dxers.
Sorry to break this to you but DXers aren't important to broadcasters. Analog broadcasting has protected contours that often are minimally affected by interfering signals. With IBUZ, the interference is often severe. Once all stations light up with IBUZ, stations will become local. A perfect example is WBZ and KDKA. While WBZ's IBUZ is operating KDKA can't be received in Western MA. KDKA bombs in after 6pm when IBUZ shuts down.
The prevailing attitude is that stations should no longer expect any listening beyond their legally protected contour, especially on AM. DXing will be an historic novelty.
Rich
> As a dxer, I notice a coverage loss for some FM stations,
> that the general public doesn't. In Cincinnati, before WEBN
> (102.7) started running IBOC, I was able to receive a 102.9
> out of Springfield, but that is no longer possible. But how
> many people in Cincinnati cares that WEBN's ajacient can't
> be heard in Cincinnati?? This may sound harsh, but the only
> people adversly impacted by IBOC are dxers.
>
I live in Kenosha, WI
33 miles from Milwaukee
60 miles from Chicago
Milwaukee FMs are in my service area.
Chicago FMs fringe.
WKSC Chicago (103.5) and WXSS Milwaukee (103.7) both have IBOC.
Both are right next to each other
Only difference I have noticed is WKSC's processing sounds like crap now that they have IBOC. It makes my ears bleed.
WXSS's processing sounds better then it did before it had IBOC.
Both come in as they always have.
As for DXing, there is a west Michigan FM (WHIT Hartford) on 103.7 that makes it through on 103.7 during DX conditions. Even with WXSS there. Even with WXSS running IBOC. Same as always.
Now the AM IBOC stations are a different story. Sounds like they're broadcasting live from a waterfall. This noise travels up the dial at least 2-3 frequencies in addition to the parent frequency of the station running the IBOC.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
> that the general public doesn't. In Cincinnati, before WEBN
> (102.7) started running IBOC, I was able to receive a 102.9
> out of Springfield, but that is no longer possible. But how
> many people in Cincinnati cares that WEBN's ajacient can't
> be heard in Cincinnati?? This may sound harsh, but the only
> people adversly impacted by IBOC are dxers.
>
I live in Kenosha, WI
33 miles from Milwaukee
60 miles from Chicago
Milwaukee FMs are in my service area.
Chicago FMs fringe.
WKSC Chicago (103.5) and WXSS Milwaukee (103.7) both have IBOC.
Both are right next to each other
Only difference I have noticed is WKSC's processing sounds like crap now that they have IBOC. It makes my ears bleed.
WXSS's processing sounds better then it did before it had IBOC.
Both come in as they always have.
As for DXing, there is a west Michigan FM (WHIT Hartford) on 103.7 that makes it through on 103.7 during DX conditions. Even with WXSS there. Even with WXSS running IBOC. Same as always.
Now the AM IBOC stations are a different story. Sounds like they're broadcasting live from a waterfall. This noise travels up the dial at least 2-3 frequencies in addition to the parent frequency of the station running the IBOC.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
R
RadioDoc
Guest
> As a dxer, I notice a coverage loss for some FM stations,
> that the general public doesn't. In Cincinnati, before WEBN
> (102.7) started running IBOC, I was able to receive a 102.9
> out of Springfield, but that is no longer possible. But how
> many people in Cincinnati cares that WEBN's ajacient can't
> be heard in Cincinnati?? This may sound harsh, but the only
> people adversly impacted by IBOC are dxers.
>
You hit the nail on the head. So far, the only complaints I've heard are from DX'ers, or people who swallow what DX'ers are saying without checking the facts for themselves.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
> that the general public doesn't. In Cincinnati, before WEBN
> (102.7) started running IBOC, I was able to receive a 102.9
> out of Springfield, but that is no longer possible. But how
> many people in Cincinnati cares that WEBN's ajacient can't
> be heard in Cincinnati?? This may sound harsh, but the only
> people adversly impacted by IBOC are dxers.
>
You hit the nail on the head. So far, the only complaints I've heard are from DX'ers, or people who swallow what DX'ers are saying without checking the facts for themselves.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
> > As a dxer, I notice a coverage loss for some FM stations,
> > that the general public doesn't. In Cincinnati, before
> WEBN
> > (102.7) started running IBOC, I was able to receive a
> 102.9
> > out of Springfield, but that is no longer possible. But
> how
> > many people in Cincinnati cares that WEBN's ajacient can't
>
> > be heard in Cincinnati?? This may sound harsh, but the
> only
> > people adversly impacted by IBOC are dxers.
>
> Sorry to break this to you but DXers aren't important to
> broadcasters. Analog broadcasting has protected contours
> that often are minimally affected by interfering signals.
> With IBUZ, the interference is often severe. Once all
> stations light up with IBUZ, stations will become local. A
> perfect example is WBZ and KDKA. While WBZ's IBUZ is
> operating KDKA can't be received in Western MA. KDKA bombs
> in after 6pm when IBUZ shuts down.
>
> The prevailing attitude is that stations should no longer
> expect any listening beyond their legally protected contour,
> especially on AM. DXing will be an historic novelty.
>
> Rich
>
correct me if im wrong but am iboc is only on in daylight hours..its standard analog after dark. therefore dxing will still exist.<P ID="signature">______________
note to the NAB..satellite radio..its worth paying for!!</P>
> > that the general public doesn't. In Cincinnati, before
> WEBN
> > (102.7) started running IBOC, I was able to receive a
> 102.9
> > out of Springfield, but that is no longer possible. But
> how
> > many people in Cincinnati cares that WEBN's ajacient can't
>
> > be heard in Cincinnati?? This may sound harsh, but the
> only
> > people adversly impacted by IBOC are dxers.
>
> Sorry to break this to you but DXers aren't important to
> broadcasters. Analog broadcasting has protected contours
> that often are minimally affected by interfering signals.
> With IBUZ, the interference is often severe. Once all
> stations light up with IBUZ, stations will become local. A
> perfect example is WBZ and KDKA. While WBZ's IBUZ is
> operating KDKA can't be received in Western MA. KDKA bombs
> in after 6pm when IBUZ shuts down.
>
> The prevailing attitude is that stations should no longer
> expect any listening beyond their legally protected contour,
> especially on AM. DXing will be an historic novelty.
>
> Rich
>
correct me if im wrong but am iboc is only on in daylight hours..its standard analog after dark. therefore dxing will still exist.<P ID="signature">______________
note to the NAB..satellite radio..its worth paying for!!</P>
> correct me if im wrong but am iboc is only on in daylight
> hours..its standard analog after dark. therefore dxing will
> still exist.
If IBUZ remains a daytime-only option we might as well shut full time stations down. Who will accept entertainment quality during the day and mud at night? Make everyone a daytimer.
I continue to propose that AM IBUZ be permitted at night to allow an orderly repair of out of tolerance DAs (digital may not follow analog directional rules). DXers have a while before the AM band becomes unlistenable. There are fewer than 100 AM stations on the air with it right now. There are far more FMs.
As a programmer I can tell you listeners won't tolerate the dramatic reduction in quality both at night and in low signal areas where mode switching will be the order of the day.
When I had the IBUZ receiver I forced it into digital mode. It was too annoying on both bands to listen to constant switching from analog to digital. It just added another annoyance to low signals and multipath.
Remember, IBUZ signals, for the most part, are a fraction of the analog power.
Rich
> hours..its standard analog after dark. therefore dxing will
> still exist.
If IBUZ remains a daytime-only option we might as well shut full time stations down. Who will accept entertainment quality during the day and mud at night? Make everyone a daytimer.
I continue to propose that AM IBUZ be permitted at night to allow an orderly repair of out of tolerance DAs (digital may not follow analog directional rules). DXers have a while before the AM band becomes unlistenable. There are fewer than 100 AM stations on the air with it right now. There are far more FMs.
As a programmer I can tell you listeners won't tolerate the dramatic reduction in quality both at night and in low signal areas where mode switching will be the order of the day.
When I had the IBUZ receiver I forced it into digital mode. It was too annoying on both bands to listen to constant switching from analog to digital. It just added another annoyance to low signals and multipath.
Remember, IBUZ signals, for the most part, are a fraction of the analog power.
Rich
>
> When I had the IBUZ receiver I forced it into digital mode.
> It was too annoying on both bands to listen to constant
> switching from analog to digital. It just added another
> annoyance to low signals and multipath.
>
Do any/some/all iBUZ radios permit the end user to defeat the automatic switching and stay in analogue or digital mode?
My proposal would be to realocate the standard broadcast band to nonbroadcast use and, in exchange for surrendering those wonderful early twentieth century frequencies, require some FM's to sell or lease some of their digital bandwidth to those displaced broadcasters. More often than not, AM and FM stations within a market are co-owned.<P ID="signature">______________
Proud 2 B a pioneering satellite radio subs¢riber
Ai4i is always on the trailing edge of technology
______________</P>
> When I had the IBUZ receiver I forced it into digital mode.
> It was too annoying on both bands to listen to constant
> switching from analog to digital. It just added another
> annoyance to low signals and multipath.
>
Do any/some/all iBUZ radios permit the end user to defeat the automatic switching and stay in analogue or digital mode?
My proposal would be to realocate the standard broadcast band to nonbroadcast use and, in exchange for surrendering those wonderful early twentieth century frequencies, require some FM's to sell or lease some of their digital bandwidth to those displaced broadcasters. More often than not, AM and FM stations within a market are co-owned.<P ID="signature">______________
Proud 2 B a pioneering satellite radio subs¢riber
Ai4i is always on the trailing edge of technology
______________</P>
> Do any/some/all iBUZ radios permit the end user to defeat
> the automatic switching and stay in analogue or digital
> mode?
The Kenwood I had would allow Auto, Digital and Analog. Since I don't have access in my market to any IBUZ receivers and the web sites I've visited don't mention the ability to force a mode, I can't tell you.
> My proposal would be to realocate the standard broadcast
> band to nonbroadcast use and, in exchange for surrendering
> those wonderful early twentieth century frequencies, require
> some FM's to sell or lease some of their digital bandwidth
> to those displaced broadcasters. More often than not, AM
> and FM stations within a market are co-owned.
Never happen. The directive was to create a system that would use the existing spectrum. Let's get used to staying where we are and figure a way to cram 10lbs into that 5 lb bag. That's why I propose letting AM IBUZ run 24/7 and rework the the existing installations so both analog and digital obey the rules. Who knows, one station might have an array that protects another from the digital signal and an array for analog. Everyone has room for 6 more towers, don't they?
FM will be much easier, so there's no reason to move.
Rich
> the automatic switching and stay in analogue or digital
> mode?
The Kenwood I had would allow Auto, Digital and Analog. Since I don't have access in my market to any IBUZ receivers and the web sites I've visited don't mention the ability to force a mode, I can't tell you.
> My proposal would be to realocate the standard broadcast
> band to nonbroadcast use and, in exchange for surrendering
> those wonderful early twentieth century frequencies, require
> some FM's to sell or lease some of their digital bandwidth
> to those displaced broadcasters. More often than not, AM
> and FM stations within a market are co-owned.
Never happen. The directive was to create a system that would use the existing spectrum. Let's get used to staying where we are and figure a way to cram 10lbs into that 5 lb bag. That's why I propose letting AM IBUZ run 24/7 and rework the the existing installations so both analog and digital obey the rules. Who knows, one station might have an array that protects another from the digital signal and an array for analog. Everyone has room for 6 more towers, don't they?
FM will be much easier, so there's no reason to move.
Rich
A
allisonmarie
Guest
> I may be missing something but all I notice is a slight hiss
> on either side of the FMs that are running HD and I'm not
> even sure it wasn't there before. I haven't found anything
> that I've been able to hear before that I can't now.
>
Answer: It wasn't there before!
> on either side of the FMs that are running HD and I'm not
> even sure it wasn't there before. I haven't found anything
> that I've been able to hear before that I can't now.
>
Answer: It wasn't there before!
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