Really poor off-air pick-ups on old CATV systems

[Stanislav]

Nowadays, the major cable systems rely on fiber or other direct feeds to carry most OTA stations. But, of course, back in the more "primitive" days, CATV systems relied on pulling signals off-air (with the exception of some private microwave links, and satellite feeds beginning with the superstations).

What are some specific examples of old cable systems that had really poor-quality OTA pick-up, either overall or on specific stations? The kind of situations where fading, noise, ghosting, or frequent CCI were rampant?

 

[TexasTuner]

Boy howdy, does that bring back memories. I used to work in Lawton, Oklahoma back in the early 70s...at KSWO AM-TV, which also had the distinction of being one of the few remaining TV-Cable crossownership situations left in the US. The cable head end was at the TV station. The channel 7 feed (KSWO-TV) was pulled right off of the DA that fed the tv transmitter microwave. Since it was the primary ABC affiliate for the Lawton/Wichita Falls area, that's what was on. KOCO-TV in OKC was also ABC, but the mechanical switcher that kept the network duplication system working generally kicked off all of the OKC stations unless they were running their local news or other syndicated programs. Wichita Falls had KFDX-TV (NBC) and KAUZ-TV (CBS), so Lawton was, for all intents and purposes, a 3 VHF town. Wichita Falls stations put a Grade B over the city, where KSWO-TV put a city grade (Grade A) over both markets due to the fact their tower was almost 36 miles south of the studio. It had one microwave hop, which made things real interesting during the summer!

The original facility used a 500' tower behind the studios when it was a low power (10kw visual) operation from Lawton. They later added huge CATV antennas and pulled channels 4, 5, 9 and 13 off the air from Oklahoma City. No UHF was on the air at that point in time in OKC, and the closest was in Dallas (KTXT-TV channel 39). Depending on weather conditions between OKC and Lawton, the OTA was horrible, fair, sometimes very good. When the skip rolled in, WIBW-TV in Topeka, Kansas would throw enough of a signal to override the squelch on the channel 13 receiver (used for Oklahoma ETV in OKC) and you could watch WIBW-TV on Lawton Cablevision.

We also used KOCO-TV, the ABC affiliate in OKC as a backup when our AT&T microwave crapped out. We had audio from telco (5khz line quality) but the OTA varied from excellent to bad-it was the luck of the draw.

Today, cable and TV are no longer co-owned, and it's a much better system, from what I've been told. Ah, the past-what fun and memories!

 

[easttxtv]

, and the closest was in Dallas (KTXT-TV channel 39).

That would actually be KXTX, but that's all right, it was quite an interesting setup you guys had at KSWO, huh?

 

[radiorob2.0]

Whitesburg, Kentucky had an early cable system dating back to 1952. Until the system was sold it was five channel service. The offerings were a co-channel nightmare considering the height of the head end. They received Channel 13 from Huntington that battled Asheville, NC. WCYB Bristol had constant interference from WLWT Cincinnati. Later Channel 13 was replaced with WKPT (19) Kingsport, TN, though the picture was better it too suffered from co-channel problems from WXIX Cincinnati. WJHL Johnson City fought WHAS Louisville.

I'm not sure who owns the system today but as of five years ago it was owned by Adelphia. At the time WKPT was audio and a snowy non-viewable picture. Even though customers complained the company said there was nothing they could do to fix the problem since they company was in bankruptcy. Keep in mind at the head end you could feed the WKPT receiver with a loop antenna and have a usable picture.

 

[Ultimajock]

...two examples from Wisconsin in the early '80s -- as I mentioned on the other thread, the system in Oshkosh had so many problems with WITI/6 Milwaukee that they eventually dumped the channel. As well, the system in Madison had a terrible OTA signal from WMVS/10 Milwaukee, mainly because of interference from WILX/10 Onondaga MI...

 

[bpatrick]

, and the closest was in Dallas (KTXT-TV channel 39).

That would actually be KXTX, but that's all right, it was quite an interesting setup you guys had at KSWO, huh?

KTXT is in Lubbock; it is a PBS affiliate. The call letters refer to TeXas Tech.

 

[newsmark]

The East Texas Edition:

United Cable TV in Tyler used to pick up KTBS/3 (ABC) in Shreveport. It was on Cable 7. The OTA signal was bad enough, but having KLTV 7 locally meant a lot of ghosting on the channel.

Sometimes at night after KTBS went off the air, WLBT/3 (NBC) from Jackson, Mississippi would come through.

Channels 4,5,8,11,13 and 39 from Dallas all came in via microwave. The signal was usually good, but in some weather conditions the signal would go to snow on all 6 channels.

In Lufkin, the cable company picked up Houston's 2, 11, 13 and 39 via microwave. (I don't recall whether 8 was there.) Sometimes that signal would go bad, too. At KTRE/9, our main ABC signal came via microwave from KLTV. We had access to the signal from 13 to use as our ABC backup. So when KLTV would lose its ABC signal, KTRE would take KTRK's signal, then KLTV would take KTRE's signal OFF AIR. It looked horrible.

Once during Monday Night Football, we were "riding Lufkin" and KTRE was "riding Houston." At the top of the hour, viewers saw KTRK's ID supered over the game, followed by KTRE's, followed by KLTV's. What a mess.

 

[trapper12]

LIved not to far from Whitesburg. Had same problems on CATV. Channel 13 out of Huntington and Ashville would kill each other at times. WKPT and WXIX would do the same. Channel 5 from Bristol and Nashville yes Nashville would cut each other out all the time. When channel 18 Lexington would sign off channel 18 Lafayette Indiana would come in very clear as well as channel 35 from Erie PA when the local KET station would sign off. The Whitesburg system is now owned by TVS out of Hindman.

 

[radiorob2.0]

LIved not to far from Whitesburg. Had same problems on CATV. Channel 13 out of Huntington and Ashville would kill each other at times. WKPT and WXIX would do the same. Channel 5 from Bristol and Nashville yes Nashville would cut each other out all the time. When channel 18 Lexington would sign off channel 18 Lafayette Indiana would come in very clear as well as channel 35 from Erie PA when the local KET station would sign off. The Whitesburg system is now owned by TVS out of Hindman.

Whitesburg has two cable systems. TVS operates the cable system serving the outskirts of Whitesburg while Time Warner (former Sayler TV & Radio/Mountain Cable/Century Cable/Adelphia/Time Warner) operates the system serving downtown and attached neighborhoods.

Another poor pick up from the old days of Sayler was the battle of Channel 6. For a time they imported WHIS (now WVVA) from Bluefield, WV with WATE Knoxville in the background. Then they imported WATE and WVVA then gave them fits.

 

[Mike Stroud]

LIved not to far from Whitesburg. Had same problems on CATV. Channel 13 out of Huntington and Ashville would kill each other at times. WKPT and WXIX would do the same. Channel 5 from Bristol and Nashville yes Nashville would cut each other out all the time. When channel 18 Lexington would sign off channel 18 Lafayette Indiana would come in very clear as well as channel 35 from Erie PA when the local KET station would sign off. The Whitesburg system is now owned by TVS out of Hindman.

That's pretty peculiar that WLAC/WTVF would come in stronger than Cincinnati's WLWT on 5, when you consider that Whitesburg is on the Virginia border. However, one has to remember that WTVF's signal is very strong, as it covers a large expanse of territory, including more than a third of Tennessee and the southernmost counties of central Kentucky. Still, the mountains between Whitesburg and Nashville in the Cumberland region should be more than enough of a barrier, far more than any between there and Cincinnati. WLWT's reach is essentially southwestern Ohio, southeastern Indiana, and extreme northern Kentucky between Maysville and Madison, Indiana, probably nowhere as large a territory as that of WTVF. According to Wikipedia (not an absolute authority, like I've said before), WCYB reaches parts of five states (up into West Virginia). But, given certain weather patterns, anything was possible, I suppose.

Furthermore, Whitesburg's elevation is only about 1,200 feet above sea level, so it's not quite obvious that signals from Indiana and Pennsylvania would hit Whitesburg other than via e-skip. Do you recall this happening constantly, or just from time to time? If only from time to time, I would think e-skip would be the reason.

Just some observations from an amateur ...

 

[Stanislav]

LIved not to far from Whitesburg. Had same problems on CATV. Channel 13 out of Huntington and Ashville would kill each other at times. WKPT and WXIX would do the same. Channel 5 from Bristol and Nashville yes Nashville would cut each other out all the time. When channel 18 Lexington would sign off channel 18 Lafayette Indiana would come in very clear as well as channel 35 from Erie PA when the local KET station would sign off. The Whitesburg system is now owned by TVS out of Hindman.

That's pretty peculiar that WLAC/WTVF would come in stronger than Cincinnati's WLWT on 5, when you consider that Whitesburg is on the Virginia border. However, one has to remember that WTVF's signal is very strong, as it covers a large expanse of territory, including more than a third of Tennessee and the southernmost counties of central Kentucky. Still, the mountains between Whitesburg and Nashville in the Cumberland region should be more than enough of a barrier, far more than any between there and Cincinnati. WLWT's reach is essentially southwestern Ohio, southeastern Indiana, and extreme northern Kentucky between Maysville and Madison, Indiana, probably nowhere as large a territory as that of WTVF. According to Wikipedia (not an absolute authority, like I've said before), WCYB reaches parts of five states (up into West Virginia). But, given certain weather patterns, anything was possible, I suppose.

Furthermore, Whitesburg's elevation is only about 1,200 feet above sea level, so it's not quite obvious that signals from Indiana and Pennsylvania would hit Whitesburg other than via e-skip. Do you recall this happening constantly, or just from time to time? If only from time to time, I would think e-skip would be the reason.

Just some observations from an amateur ...

The distances and channels involved rule out e-skip -- definitely tropo, which is not unheard of even in that region.

 

[Mike Stroud]

LIved not to far from Whitesburg. Had same problems on CATV. Channel 13 out of Huntington and Ashville would kill each other at times. WKPT and WXIX would do the same. Channel 5 from Bristol and Nashville yes Nashville would cut each other out all the time. When channel 18 Lexington would sign off channel 18 Lafayette Indiana would come in very clear as well as channel 35 from Erie PA when the local KET station would sign off. The Whitesburg system is now owned by TVS out of Hindman.

That's pretty peculiar that WLAC/WTVF would come in stronger than Cincinnati's WLWT on 5, when you consider that Whitesburg is on the Virginia border. However, one has to remember that WTVF's signal is very strong, as it covers a large expanse of territory, including more than a third of Tennessee and the southernmost counties of central Kentucky. Still, the mountains between Whitesburg and Nashville in the Cumberland region should be more than enough of a barrier, far more than any between there and Cincinnati. WLWT's reach is essentially southwestern Ohio, southeastern Indiana, and extreme northern Kentucky between Maysville and Madison, Indiana, probably nowhere as large a territory as that of WTVF. According to Wikipedia (not an absolute authority, like I've said before), WCYB reaches parts of five states (up into West Virginia). But, given certain weather patterns, anything was possible, I suppose.

Furthermore, Whitesburg's elevation is only about 1,200 feet above sea level, so it's not quite obvious that signals from Indiana and Pennsylvania would hit Whitesburg other than via e-skip. Do you recall this happening constantly, or just from time to time? If only from time to time, I would think e-skip would be the reason.

Just some observations from an amateur ...

The distances and channels involved rule out e-skip -- definitely tropo, which is not unheard of even in that region.

Thanx for the clarification. I damn sure didn't know what I was talking about, did I?

 

[radiorob2.0]

LIved not to far from Whitesburg. Had same problems on CATV. Channel 13 out of Huntington and Ashville would kill each other at times. WKPT and WXIX would do the same. Channel 5 from Bristol and Nashville yes Nashville would cut each other out all the time. When channel 18 Lexington would sign off channel 18 Lafayette Indiana would come in very clear as well as channel 35 from Erie PA when the local KET station would sign off. The Whitesburg system is now owned by TVS out of Hindman.

That's pretty peculiar that WLAC/WTVF would come in stronger than Cincinnati's WLWT on 5, when you consider that Whitesburg is on the Virginia border. However, one has to remember that WTVF's signal is very strong, as it covers a large expanse of territory, including more than a third of Tennessee and the southernmost counties of central Kentucky. Still, the mountains between Whitesburg and Nashville in the Cumberland region should be more than enough of a barrier, far more than any between there and Cincinnati. WLWT's reach is essentially southwestern Ohio, southeastern Indiana, and extreme northern Kentucky between Maysville and Madison, Indiana, probably nowhere as large a territory as that of WTVF. According to Wikipedia (not an absolute authority, like I've said before), WCYB reaches parts of five states (up into West Virginia). But, given certain weather patterns, anything was possible, I suppose.

Furthermore, Whitesburg's elevation is only about 1,200 feet above sea level, so it's not quite obvious that signals from Indiana and Pennsylvania would hit Whitesburg other than via e-skip. Do you recall this happening constantly, or just from time to time? If only from time to time, I would think e-skip would be the reason.

Just some observations from an amateur ...

Whitesburg is only 1200 feet above sea level but add another almost 1000 feet for the original head end. The current head end is higher up located atop Pine Mountain. At that height any form of skip became a factor so co-channel issues were a regular occurrence.

I've DXed from near the head end location at Pine Mountain. Years ago, I had a signal on 92.5. Conventional wisdom would say the signal is from Cincinnati. However, it was Owensboro, KY so anything is possible.

 

[trapper12]

I was closer to Hazard than Whitesburg by a few miles. I worked the cable system for a while and it was definately channel 5 from Nashville. Our tower was about 80ft on top of a 900ft mountain. The Erie Pa station was the strange one. It would come in every night for a month then nothing for a few months then back. Channel 6 Knoxville was another pain. Had an fm station from somewhere, never could figure out where, cut it out from time to time. Always tended to think it was a pirate station of some sort. WBKO would come every now and then but it was definately skip.

 

[TexasTuner]

, and the closest was in Dallas (KTXT-TV channel 39).

That would actually be KXTX, but that's all right, it was quite an interesting setup you guys had at KSWO, huh?

Sorry about that-it's the keyboard's fault! (g). But yes, it was a hoot. TV back then was a lot of fun...very poorly run, but it was a great learning experience. They sold the cable system last year, got a ton of money for it, and were ready to sell off the television group but the sale fell through. Now, they just took over the CBS affiliate in nearby Wichita Falls (KAUZ channel 6) in a "joint services agreement", and may be expanding with purchases of LPTVs and a full power U in the Amarillo area to bolster their Hispanic television coverage.

 

[mjlarochelle]

This type of practice has continued in Canada in recent years. Some of the U.S. stations fed to cable in London, Ontario had horrid picture quality for many years, only ending with the DTV transition. WUAB Cleveland, WICU Erie, and WSEE Erie all had awful picture quality, and at times WUAB would be un-watchable. My understanding is that these stations were picked up OTA from a head end on the Canadian shores of Lake Erie and were transmitted to London. Even with the DTV transition, Rogers upgraded its head end to continue picking up some digital signals, including WUAB and WQLN. They have since dropped WICU and WJET, and WSEE was dropped in 2003 - and for the short time they picked up WICU-DT, the picture quality remained poor although better than before the transition.

In 2006, I saw a system in Whitney, Ontario which included the MCTV station from Huntsville, and it had poor picture quality. I saw the head-end for the Whitney system and it was a simple VHF antenna atop a shack.

 

[azumanga]

This type of practice has continued in Canada in recent years. Some of the U.S. stations fed to cable in London, Ontario had horrid picture quality for many years, only ending with the DTV transition. WUAB Cleveland, WICU Erie, and WSEE Erie all had awful picture quality, and at times WUAB would be un-watchable. My understanding is that these stations were picked up OTA from a head end on the Canadian shores of Lake Erie and were transmitted to London. Even with the DTV transition, Rogers upgraded its head end to continue picking up some digital signals, including WUAB and WQLN. They have since dropped WICU and WJET, and WSEE was dropped in 2003 - and for the short time they picked up WICU-DT, the picture quality remained poor although better than before the transition.

This was one of the reasons why Rogers wanted to drop Erie's WQLN from its system -- until WQLN offered to provide a fiber connection to London.

 

[RegularJoeRG]

Cablevue, the former cable system in Belleville, Ontario, had issues picking up a clear signal from WWNY (CBS affiliate from Watertown, NY on Channel 7). WWNY would often have interference from the ABC affiliate in Buffalo, NY, WKBW. It was particularly bad in the summer, but the co-channel interference would occur throughout the year. Often, when WWNY would sign off for the night around 2 AM, Cablevue would simply turn their ch. 7 antenna and bring in a somewhat watchable WKBW (with the WWNY test pattern floating around faintly in the background). WKBW was not the only co-channel culprit interfering with WWNY, however. There were times where I would not only encounter WKBW, but CIII-TV-7 from Midland, Ontario. Their transmitter was even more distant, over 200 km northwest of Belleville (as the crow flies) near the shores of Georgian Bay.