Reasons why Dance is not being done in Chicago

[davideduardo]

Re: You cannot have a dance station in chicago without.....

> > My point is that without Hispanics, there is no cance
> dance
> > can work. And since reggaetón is the dance music of
> today-s
> > 18-34 Hispanics, there is not much left over for a "dance"
>
> > dance station.
>
> 30 year old Hispanic here, not a big fan of reggaeton. BIG
> FAN of House, Trance and chillout. Actually as a
> Cuban-American, I find reggaeton embarrassing.

The fact is that, excluding for taste, reggaetón is the mass appeal music of 12-24 (#1 total market in LA, for example) and is growing to that point in 25-34.

Since conventional dance always overindexes among Hisapanics, and Hispanics int he same age are overwhelmingly migrating to reggaetón at the club and radio level, I believe you can not successfully do dance without Hispanics, and a high enough percentage have gone to reggaetón as to make te format even more unviable than before.

 

[davideduardo]

> Well, what MLII has said is also true. The dance format
> cannot survive without the African American component
> either. Most importantly, you need to identify who you're
> going to serve in the market in question and go after them.
> In Chicago, you need to identify with the Hispanic and
> African American communities, in addition to the Caucasians.
> Only then, can you have a full service dance station that
> is mainstream enough to serve the Chicago market without
> alienating anyone.

Dance stations, whether you look at the few that survive, or the ones that have existed in the more recent years, underindex against Blacks, meaning that the higher the Black population of a market, the worse a dance station will perform. WKTU is less than 10% black in a market that is 20% Black, but gets over 30% Hispanic in a market that is less than 10% Engliish domianant Hispanics.

This can be seen over and over in Maimi, with Energy in Chicago, and with the dance efforts in Phoenix, Dallas, Danver, LA and elsewhere.
>

 

[davideduardo]

> NO!!!!
>
> If you look at any place where dance has come close to
> working, it has been with a significant CHINESE component!
> Look at WKTU... although mostly a 25-54 play, definitely a
> dance flavor and would be below a 2 share without Chinese.
>
> Yeah... KDL in LA, Energy San Francisco, and Energy Chicago
> have all had higher Chinese components. Maybe that's why
> dance did somewhat well there. No wait! I meant KOREAN! No
> GREEK! No POLISH! Oh, heck, why not say all those cities
> with two airports? Without those multiple airports, dance
> would not do well.
>
> And HIP-HOP won't do well without a significant
> African-American population. Yeah, that explains all those
> rhythmic CHRs and urban stations in white-dominated areas
> such as Billings, Montana or states like Idaho or North
> Dakota.

Before calling things ridiculous, you might look at the audience composition in Maximiser for dance stations today and int he recent past, and index the composition by ethnicity against market ethnicity.
>
> Ridiculous.
>

 

[Rocketman]

The only play in Chicago for Dance on a primary terrestrial signal is by an independent owner with suburban signals. No one else. Even on a scattered signal array, you're looking at billing a maximum of between $6-8M with 99.9% local avails.<P ID="signature">______________
Rob Austin
Vice President
JamTraxx Media Inc.
http://www.jamtraxxmedia.com
"Major Market Solutions for Your Radio Station's Needs!"</P>

 

[dave73]

> > Of COURSE, I was being silly! I just couldn't help but
> laugh
> > at the dialogue between David and MusicLoverII.
> >
> > Although... it's interesting to note that C89.5 (though a
> > non-comm) has been a dance station for decades in Seattle,
> a
> > city with 5% Hispanic population. Diva 103.3 WCDV, a
> > dance-leaning Hot AC in Baton Rouge, is doing good with a
> > 1.7% Hispanic population. Diva 92.3 WDVW, another
> > dance-leaning Hot AC in New Orleans, is doing okay as well
>
> > with less than 3% Hispanic population.
> >
>
> Well, damn, JD actually had my asian blood pumped up for a
> moment there. Till I read where KTU would only be a 2 share
> without the Chinese demographic. Then I heard the
> background laugh track go off in my head. lol
>
> Personally, I don't see where dance has to depend on
> ethnicity to be viable in a given market. True, a larger
> percentage of ethnic demos respond to dance better than the
> more frequently targeted ones, but can't we just say that
> dance is viable in Chicago, or somewhere else because
> there's a lot of DANCE FANS? And dance heritage? Hello?
> Birthplace of house music, people?
>
Chicago is a market with plenty of night clubs, both straight & gay/lesbian, and there are people out there that would like to hear some of the dance music outside of the clubs. Truth is, regardless of ethnic background, it will have to be programmed for Chicago by someone with plenty of money to buy a suburban stick or 2 to reach the necessary demo. I believe it can work in Chicago, but there's no one out there to do it that isn't part of a big corporation. Corporate radio overall hates it. They want money rolling in last week.

 

[-TJ-]

> For younger Hispanics, reggaetón IS dance. And without
> Hispanics, no dance station can make it in the US.

<font color=3333ff>I'm not talkin the US. I'm talking Chicago. I was at a company party the other night... and what did they have playing all night? Dance and "freestyle" music.... sounded like a cross between Energy, Cyber Radio, and old B96. I'm always hearing dance playin out of cars. And who's playing it? White females...... and males too.

Chicago is not the US. Chicago is the home of house.

Personally, I don't think there is enough Reggaeton yet to make it a format, but now we already have Reggeton y Mas stations in NY, Chi, and LA. It's gonna be interesting to see the future of that format.

Hip Hop took a much longer time to develop before stations started to spring up, and there are STILL markets across the country that don't even have a Hip Hop station in their market (wether its Rhythmic or Urban).

</font>

 

[-TJ-]

Re: JD, well said. I'm not understanding David at all......

<font color=3333ff>David Eduardo is coming across to me as too much of a book-reader and analyzer of statistics.

Look, Dance is a FUN and FRIENDLY format. If you like to have FUN; if you like FRIENDLY people, chances are you might like it.

David, tell me what was the breakdown of Hispanics to Whites to Blacks to Asians at the clubs that Energy went to each week? Were they mostly Hispanic? When Energy came out to Schaumburg on the last night, were the people in the parking lot mostly Hispanic? I don't think so.

Everyone knows that I am Hip Hop all the way. But growing up with B96 in the early 90's and living in Chicago, there will always be something in me that loves some Lisette Melendez, Cynthina and Johnny O, Lil Suzy to Rockell....... to Darude and Ian Van Dahl. It's also a CHICAGO thing.


And to sum it up to the other post I saw about "If Dance was so good, why didn't the new station owners keep it?" Because SBS wanted to stick it to HBC and that was their goal. Well, SBS lost and sold.

Think about it.... if you bought a house because you love it, but it's pink, would you keep the house pink or paint it? I'd paint it. WKIE got painted twice since the new owners. That's the best way to describe it.

But there has to be SOMEONE that realizes this money just sitting there, untapped waiting. The Urban/CHR loot is being stretched so much now.
</font>

 

[musicloverII]

> Corporate radio overall hates it. They want money rolling
> in last week.
>

Yes and yet they still do stupid things like put Jack on 104.3, Put Kiss on 103.5, Let 94.7 rot in billing, Flip Energy to Spanish and 80s to Spanish.


They say they want the money rolling in but the moves they make and the excuses made when it doesn't contradict that.

If they don't understand it they won't do it. If they want what they want, if they want their "brand" they'll wreck a station to get it in and then when it takes a lifetime to bill 1/2 of what the station was billing they'll scratch their heads, make up a justification for why it failed and still avoid doing the right because because they don't get it.

 

[davideduardo]

>
> Personally, I don't think there is enough Reggaeton yet to
> make it a format, but now we already have Reggeton y Mas
> stations in NY, Chi, and LA. It's gonna be interesting to
> see the future of that format.

There is enough reggaeton production to program several stations! In fact there is more reggaeton each week than Spanish pop, rock and ballad combined.

KXOL is now 0.1 shares away from being tied for #1 in LA 12+ total market and it is a reggaeton station. There are reggaeton stations in Puerto Rico (2 of them, one top 5 for last 7 years), Miami, Houston, San Antonio, McAllen, Midland, Dallas, Chicago, Bakersfield, Albuquerque, New York, San francisco, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Fresno, Santa Barbara, etc.
>
> Hip Hop took a much longer time to develop before stations
> started to spring up, and there are STILL markets across the
> country that don't even have a Hip Hop station in their
> market (wether its Rhythmic or Urban).

You will only have reggaeton staitons where there are Hispanics in the US. There are now nearly pure reggaeton staitons in Colombia, Chile, Dominican Republic, Panama, etc. And they are top rated.
>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: JD, well said. I'm not understanding David at all......

>
> David, tell me what was the breakdown of Hispanics to Whites
> to Blacks to Asians at the clubs that Energy went to each
> week? Were they mostly Hispanic? When Energy came out to
> Schaumburg on the last night, were the people in the parking
> lot mostly Hispanic? I don't think so.

Clubs are not radio stations. My point is that Hispanics contribute to a dance stations's audience about 3 times as much as non-whites, and Blacks about 1/3 as much, referent to the population.

Since Hispanics have, mostly, accepted reggaetón as the new pop and dance music, there is no Hispanic pool of consideration left. Blacks hardly listen, and non-Hispanic whites listen less when indexed. Hispanics have been the key to the near success of any dance station... and are key to WKTU... a third of the listening in a market where English domiant Hispanics are less than 10% of the population.
>
> And to sum it up to the other post I saw about "If Dance was
> so good, why didn't the new station owners keep it?"
> Because SBS wanted to stick it to HBC and that was their
> goal. Well, SBS lost and sold.

They wanted to stop the bleeding. Bill Tanner is very pro dance, and would have kept the for,at if they thought it worked. It did not.

 

[noisebox]

it's their money and their name on the license.
they can do whatever the hell they want with it.
not what you, or me or what anybody else wants to do with their respective radio stations.

the big corporations might not "get" dance. so be it. whatever format they choose to put on the signals that they own is up to them to make them succeed or fail.

in a market the size of chicago, nyc or l.a., the big corporations that own all the great signals don't care if "dance" is popular. they want to know only one thing for the format they chose for any particular signal = 'HOW IS IT GOING TO BILL?' especially in at least the top 50 markets. in the top 3 radio markets - if a format doesn't bill upwards of 15 or 20 million a year, they don't want to hear it. PERIOD. (except of course if you are Disney and own the Zone.)

radio isn't in the business of serving the public interest any more and hasn't been since the deregulation in the 90's. it's all about the bottom line and return on investment. it's not about ratings as much as it is on making a dollar.

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS DANCE, STOP BRINGING UP THIS DISCUSSION. YOU OR I OR THE POPULATION OF SCHAUMBURG, ELK GROVE VILLAGE, MT. PROSPECT, PALATINE, GLENVIEW, WAUKEGAN, OAK PARK, ELMHURST, ELMWOOD PARK HARVEY, MONEE, AURORA, DOWNERS GROVE, BOLINGBROOK, AND LAKE FOREST ARE NOT GOING TO BRING A DANCE STATION BACK TO THE CHICAGO AREA. IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

you can wish it all you want. you can whine and moan about the fact that "the big corporations won't give us a dance station" - THEY DON'T HAVE TO. we can talk about this 'til we're blue in the face or can make heads or tails out of what Mr. David Eduardo is saying - BUT THERE WILL NOT BE ANOTHER GOOD FULL-SIGNAL DANCE STATION IN CHICAGO FOR A GOOD LONG WHILE. if EVER again.

you have a better chance of winning the lottery than this happening.

*steps off soapbox*<P ID="signature">______________
"TO HELP THE VICTIMS OF HURRICANE KATRINA: 1-800-HELP-NOW"</P>

 

[Rocketman]

Re: JD, well said. I'm not understanding David at all......

> >
> > David, tell me what was the breakdown of Hispanics to
> Whites
> > to Blacks to Asians at the clubs that Energy went to each
> > week? Were they mostly Hispanic? When Energy came out to
>
> > Schaumburg on the last night, were the people in the
> parking
> > lot mostly Hispanic? I don't think so.
>
> Clubs are not radio stations. My point is that Hispanics
> contribute to a dance stations's audience about 3 times as
> much as non-whites, and Blacks about 1/3 as much, referent
> to the population.

What David is trying to also explain to you is that Arbitron counts you differently if you are Hispanic or African American; meaning that Caucasians count as 1 person and Hispanics and African Americans count as 1+ when diaries are processed. This is the definition of the Arbitron game that I had mentioned earlier. That is why it's imperative to create as mainstream and mass appeal a pool of listening as possible to feed the diaries from all different directions and making sure that you maximize the number of HOT ZIPs in your area.

>
> Since Hispanics have, mostly, accepted reggaetón as the new
> pop and dance music, there is no Hispanic pool of
> consideration left. Blacks hardly listen, and non-Hispanic
> whites listen less when indexed. Hispanics have been the key
> to the near success of any dance station... and are key to
> WKTU... a third of the listening in a market where English
> domiant Hispanics are less than 10% of the population.
> >
> > And to sum it up to the other post I saw about "If Dance
> was
> > so good, why didn't the new station owners keep it?"
> > Because SBS wanted to stick it to HBC and that was their
> > goal. Well, SBS lost and sold.
>
> They wanted to stop the bleeding. Bill Tanner is very pro
> dance, and would have kept the for,at if they thought it
> worked. It did not.

Yes, agreed; Bill is VERY pro-dance and, as a company, SBS decided that dance would not be profitable in the Chicago market, especially since they had no one in the market that they trusted to execute the format.

Well, turns out that La Onda was a much bigger disaster than they would have liked.<P ID="signature">______________
Rob Austin
Vice President
JamTraxx Media Inc.
http://www.jamtraxxmedia.com
"Major Market Solutions for Your Radio Station's Needs!"</P>

 

[Rocketman]

As I said before, no downtown signal is going to go DANCE. The only way it will happen is via a suburban means and with that being said, who is left to do it. There are only a handful of owners that could effectively pull it off if they got the right programmers together. I think we all know which stations or combination of stations could work, but everyone is comfortable with their ratings and revenues, thus you will not see a change in the near term.

All one can hope for is for a full market HD-2 signal popping up and making sure that you have enough money in your budget to buy a compatible receiver.

I bought Sirius so I could enjoy dance music commercial free and bang to that all day, every day; although I do keep my fingers crossed for a full market signal to come along one day in Chicago. Financially, it doesn't look like it will happen for a very long time, knowing how the big radio owners research everything and how "well" dance music tests, not only in Chicago, but across the country.

> > > Of COURSE, I was being silly! I just couldn't help but
> > laugh
> > > at the dialogue between David and MusicLoverII.
> > >
> > > Although... it's interesting to note that C89.5 (though
> a
> > > non-comm) has been a dance station for decades in
> Seattle,
> > a
> > > city with 5% Hispanic population. Diva 103.3 WCDV, a
> > > dance-leaning Hot AC in Baton Rouge, is doing good with
> a
> > > 1.7% Hispanic population. Diva 92.3 WDVW, another
> > > dance-leaning Hot AC in New Orleans, is doing okay as
> well
> >
> > > with less than 3% Hispanic population.
> > >
> >
> > Well, damn, JD actually had my asian blood pumped up for a
>
> > moment there. Till I read where KTU would only be a 2
> share
> > without the Chinese demographic. Then I heard the
> > background laugh track go off in my head. lol
> >
> > Personally, I don't see where dance has to depend on
> > ethnicity to be viable in a given market. True, a larger
> > percentage of ethnic demos respond to dance better than
> the
> > more frequently targeted ones, but can't we just say that
> > dance is viable in Chicago, or somewhere else because
> > there's a lot of DANCE FANS? And dance heritage? Hello?
> > Birthplace of house music, people?
> >
> Chicago is a market with plenty of night clubs, both
> straight & gay/lesbian, and there are people out there that
> would like to hear some of the dance music outside of the
> clubs. Truth is, regardless of ethnic background, it will
> have to be programmed for Chicago by someone with plenty of
> money to buy a suburban stick or 2 to reach the necessary
> demo. I believe it can work in Chicago, but there's no one
> out there to do it that isn't part of a big corporation.
> Corporate radio overall hates it. They want money rolling
> in last week.
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Rob Austin
Vice President
JamTraxx Media Inc.
http://www.jamtraxxmedia.com
"Major Market Solutions for Your Radio Station's Needs!"</P>

 

[Rocketman]

> > Corporate radio overall hates it. They want money rolling
>
> > in last week.
> >
>
> Yes and yet they still do stupid things like put Jack on
> 104.3, Put Kiss on 103.5, Let 94.7 rot in billing, Flip
> Energy to Spanish and 80s to Spanish.

Jack is billing and is doing better ratings-wise than Oldies in Chicago. Kiss is growing. The Zone, well, The Zone is the Zone. Unfortunately, there wasn't an owner out there that wanted to take a chance on buying the Energy/80s combo to cross-sell. I believe it still could have continued to generate decent revenues if they moved out of the city and into the burbs. What did that space cost them!

>
>
> They say they want the money rolling in but the moves they
> make and the excuses made when it doesn't contradict that.
>
> If they don't understand it they won't do it. If they want
> what they want, if they want their "brand" they'll wreck a
> station to get it in and then when it takes a lifetime to
> bill 1/2 of what the station was billing they'll scratch
> their heads, make up a justification for why it failed and
> still avoid doing the right because because they don't get
> it.
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Rob Austin
Vice President
JamTraxx Media Inc.
http://www.jamtraxxmedia.com
"Major Market Solutions for Your Radio Station's Needs!"</P>

 

[musicloverII]

>
> the big corporations might not "get" dance. so be it.
> whatever format they choose to put on the signals that they
> own is up to them to make them succeed or fail.

Well, they make many mistakes now don't they.

>
> in a market the size of chicago, nyc or l.a., the big
> corporations that own all the great signals don't care if
> "dance" is popular. they want to know only one thing for the
> format they chose for any particular signal = 'HOW IS IT
> GOING TO BILL?'

And as we've seen in many format switches, that's BS. If it were true many people who made the choices to switch to formats that were supposed to outbill and outprofit what they replaced HAVEN'T. They're in the gutter and losing more and more than before.

> in the top 3 radio markets - if a format doesn't bill
> upwards of 15 or 20 million a year, they don't want to hear
> it.

Try telling that to Disney (as you so pointed out) Clear Channel and a few other companies that all "researched" the next big thing and found out (not that they've ever admitted it) that they haven't gotten any vaseline to go with the fisting they've taken since they flipped.
>
> radio isn't in the business of serving the public interest
> any more and hasn't been since the deregulation in the 90's.
> it's all about the bottom line and return on investment.
> it's not about ratings as much as it is on making a dollar.
>
When was this different? About 1966? Granted now a dog station with no ratings can bill but that has alot to do with how the entire media buying process is set up compared to "the old days".

> PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS DANCE, STOP BRINGING UP
> THIS DISCUSSION. YOU OR I OR THE POPULATION OF SCHAUMBURG,
> ELK GROVE VILLAGE, MT. PROSPECT, PALATINE, GLENVIEW,
> WAUKEGAN, OAK PARK, ELMHURST, ELMWOOD PARK HARVEY, MONEE,
> AURORA, DOWNERS GROVE, BOLINGBROOK, AND LAKE FOREST ARE NOT
> GOING TO BRING A DANCE STATION BACK TO THE CHICAGO AREA.
> IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
>
And as a B96 employee stated, Satellite Radio banging it all day long. He's just one of the many radio has alienated, and he works in the industry. I may scan once in a while (to have something to laugh at) but I'm not really listening anymore either and my career was radio.

> you can wish it all you want. you can whine and moan about
> the fact that "the big corporations won't give us a dance
> station" - THEY DON'T HAVE TO.

You're correct. And people don't listen to radio as much because "THEY DON'T HAVE TO".

we can talk about this 'til
> we're blue in the face or can make heads or tails out of
> what Mr. David Eduardo is saying - BUT THERE WILL NOT BE
> ANOTHER GOOD FULL-SIGNAL DANCE STATION IN CHICAGO FOR A GOOD
> LONG WHILE. if EVER again.

We've only had two full signal dance stations in Chicago WDAI and WBMX. There have not been any other FULL SIGNAL stations but I get your point. Even if the last one which was a suburban station almost outbilled a city grade signal.
>
> you have a better chance of winning the lottery than this
> happening.
>
This is true

> *steps off soapbox*
>
You first.

 

[musicloverII]

Jack has changed demos as it wanted. It's going to bill, but how much and how much it will profit will not equate to what they replaced

> > > Corporate radio overall hates it. They want money
> rolling
> >
> > > in last week.
> > >
> >
> > Yes and yet they still do stupid things like put Jack on
> > 104.3, Put Kiss on 103.5, Let 94.7 rot in billing, Flip
> > Energy to Spanish and 80s to Spanish.
>
> Jack is billing and is doing better ratings-wise than Oldies
> in Chicago.

Kiss is growing. The Zone, well, The Zone is
> the Zone.

Kiss is not growing. B96 is shrinking. Kiss has been a dog since the flip. It a wanker and a flanker. Kiss is what it is. A station that has the 10 hottest songs spun every hour and a half.

Unfortunately, there wasn't an owner out there
> that wanted to take a chance on buying the Energy/80s combo
> to cross-sell. I believe it still could have continued to
> generate decent revenues if they moved out of the city and
> into the burbs. What did that space cost them!
>
True on all accounts. There's no owner that understand how to sell it. Like it's an alien format.

 

[Rocketman]

Very well said. Also, if I can put the icing on the cake, radio programming has become an exact science and it's program directors and music directors, scientists and assistants. No one, after spending 10-20 years in the pee-wee league and minors is going to come to the majors and risk their one shot at bringing home the gold. If research can keep you in the game to keep your comfortable salary than you bet that's what they are going to use to ensure that they stay in that position for many, many, many years to come. Being a good programmer is not always a gut feeling, but being able to not only research the music and the perception of the radio station, but to also be able to extrapolate EFFECTIVELY all the research that comes back so that you can implement the necessary changes on your radio station.

Radio programming is no longer about playing your favorite music, but very much big business, with lots of pressue and money on the line. We now live in the era of Sarbanes Oxley where all revenues need to be accounted for, thus there has to be a clear line of how to make a profit.

Radio programming is not the "life party" that it may have been 10-15 years ago, but rather a very challanging profession. My hat does go off to all the successful programmers, especially in the major markets, where they have stayed for many years over. It's really not an easy job by any stretch of the imagination!

> it's their money and their name on the license.
> they can do whatever the hell they want with it.
> not what you, or me or what anybody else wants to do with
> their respective radio stations.
>
> the big corporations might not "get" dance. so be it.
> whatever format they choose to put on the signals that they
> own is up to them to make them succeed or fail.
>
> in a market the size of chicago, nyc or l.a., the big
> corporations that own all the great signals don't care if
> "dance" is popular. they want to know only one thing for the
> format they chose for any particular signal = 'HOW IS IT
> GOING TO BILL?' especially in at least the top 50 markets.
> in the top 3 radio markets - if a format doesn't bill
> upwards of 15 or 20 million a year, they don't want to hear
> it. PERIOD. (except of course if you are Disney and own the
> Zone.)
>
> radio isn't in the business of serving the public interest
> any more and hasn't been since the deregulation in the 90's.
> it's all about the bottom line and return on investment.
> it's not about ratings as much as it is on making a dollar.
>
> PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS DANCE, STOP BRINGING UP
> THIS DISCUSSION. YOU OR I OR THE POPULATION OF SCHAUMBURG,
> ELK GROVE VILLAGE, MT. PROSPECT, PALATINE, GLENVIEW,
> WAUKEGAN, OAK PARK, ELMHURST, ELMWOOD PARK HARVEY, MONEE,
> AURORA, DOWNERS GROVE, BOLINGBROOK, AND LAKE FOREST ARE NOT
> GOING TO BRING A DANCE STATION BACK TO THE CHICAGO AREA.
> IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
>
> you can wish it all you want. you can whine and moan about
> the fact that "the big corporations won't give us a dance
> station" - THEY DON'T HAVE TO. we can talk about this 'til
> we're blue in the face or can make heads or tails out of
> what Mr. David Eduardo is saying - BUT THERE WILL NOT BE
> ANOTHER GOOD FULL-SIGNAL DANCE STATION IN CHICAGO FOR A GOOD
> LONG WHILE. if EVER again.
>
> you have a better chance of winning the lottery than this
> happening.
>
> *steps off soapbox*
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Rob Austin
Vice President
JamTraxx Media Inc.
http://www.jamtraxxmedia.com
"Major Market Solutions for Your Radio Station's Needs!"</P>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: JD, well said. I'm not understanding David at all......

>
> What David is trying to also explain to you is that Arbitron
> counts you differently if you are Hispanic or African
> American; meaning that Caucasians count as 1 person and
> Hispanics and African Americans count as 1+ when diaries are
> processed.

Bzzt. Wrong. Totally and absolutely wrong. Arbitron counts every person prpoortionally to the group they belong to, whether by age, sex, ethchicity or geography.

Many Hispanics are "Caucasians" so it is convenient to consider "Hispanic" as being what the official definition is: persons of a specific culture without regard for race.

If a market is 18% Hispanic, 18% of the diaries (or very close... like 17.7% or 18.2%) of the diaries in the sample (in-tab, returned valid diaries) will be from Hispanics.

What I _AM_ saying is that, if a market is 20% Hispanic and 10% Black, and 70% non Hispanic white, and a cetain format gets 3% Black cume and 30% Hispanic cume, that format on that station is much more dependent on Hispanics and far less dependent on Blacks.

> This is the definition of the Arbitron game that
> I had mentioned earlier.

... on which you could not be more wrong. The Arbitron sample is totally proportional, within achievable statistical ranges. It is, in fact, as perfect a sample as can be obtained for the money and for the methodology.

Please check the definitions in statistics of "proportionality" and "indexing" as you are not using them correctly.

> That is why it's imperative to
> create as mainstream and mass appeal a pool of listening as
> possible to feed the diaries from all different directions
> and making sure that you maximize the number of HOT ZIPs in
> your area.

Hot ZIPs have to do with where the listeners live. Different formats perform better in different areas, due to factors as diverse as socioeconomic levels, ethnicity concentrations, age averages, etc.
>
> Yes, agreed; Bill is VERY pro-dance and, as a company, SBS
> decided that dance would not be profitable in the Chicago
> market, especially since they had no one in the market that
> they trusted to execute the format.

Were Tanner to have believed in the format, he would have hired someone. Since Energy had a history of losing money, per the financials, they probably thought it was not worth it.
>
> Well, turns out that La Onda was a much bigger disaster than
> they would have liked.
>

Every company has wins and non-wins. You just try to keep most in the plus side.

 

[davideduardo]

> Very well said. Also, if I can put the icing on the cake,
> radio programming has become an exact science and it's
> program directors and music directors, scientists and
> assistants.

Not really. Programmers have better tools today than in the past, mostly due to the ability to use computers to process information.

In the past, the tools were the sales of 45 rpm singles and juke box plays. But we did not know who bought or played the songs. We now know who likes what, and can do a better job of satisfying the listener.

But the creation of the station, whether it is in imaging, promotion, moring shows, or what songs to add are all the realm of creativity, not science.

> No one, after spending 10-20 years in the
> pee-wee league and minors is going to come to the majors and
> risk their one shot at bringing home the gold. If research
> can keep you in the game to keep your comfortable salary
> than you bet that's what they are going to use to ensure
> that they stay in that position for many, many, many years
> to come.

There is no change in dependence on song research from the times of 50's and 60's. All that changed is taht the research is better.

> Being a good programmer is not always a gut
> feeling, but being able to not only research the music and
> the perception of the radio station, but to also be able to
> extrapolate EFFECTIVELY all the research that comes back so
> that you can implement the necessary changes on your radio
> station.

In other words, you agree with me. Research is a tool, just like the latest audio processing or a new transmitter is a tool. Alone, worthless. Cobined with the ability to interpret and implement in an attractive manner, very useful.

>
> Radio programming is no longer about playing your favorite
> music, but very much big business, with lots of pressue and
> money on the line.

It never was about playing an individual's favorite music, at least not at successful stations.

> We now live in the era of Sarbanes Oxley
> where all revenues need to be accounted for, thus there has
> to be a clear line of how to make a profit.

Where does Sarbanes Oxley tell you how to pick the next potential hit, how to write a liner or how to aircheck a jock?
>
> Radio programming is not the "life party" that it may have
> been 10-15 years ago, but rather a very challanging
> profession. My hat does go off to all the successful
> programmers, especially in the major markets, where they
> have stayed for many years over. It's really not an easy
> job by any stretch of the imagination!

Agreed. What has made the job harder is increased competition, fragmentation of tastes in the USA, and many other things... including alternative entertainment options like iPods and video games and cable TV.

 

[Rocketman]

Re: JD, well said. I'm not understanding David at all......

> >
> > What David is trying to also explain to you is that
> Arbitron
> > counts you differently if you are Hispanic or African
> > American; meaning that Caucasians count as 1 person and
> > Hispanics and African Americans count as 1+ when diaries
> are
> > processed.
>
> Bzzt. Wrong. Totally and absolutely wrong. Arbitron counts
> every person prpoortionally to the group they belong to,
> whether by age, sex, ethchicity or geography.
>
> Many Hispanics are "Caucasians" so it is convenient to
> consider "Hispanic" as being what the official definition
> is: persons of a specific culture without regard for race.
>
> If a market is 18% Hispanic, 18% of the diaries (or very
> close... like 17.7% or 18.2%) of the diaries in the sample
> (in-tab, returned valid diaries) will be from Hispanics.

Thank you for clarifying. I understood what you were saying, but I was merely applying the formula incorrectly, or for that matter not explaining it articulately. Again, much thanks for lesson.

> What I _AM_ saying is that, if a market is 20% Hispanic and
> 10% Black, and 70% non Hispanic white, and a cetain format
> gets 3% Black cume and 30% Hispanic cume, that format on
> that station is much more dependent on Hispanics and far
> less dependent on Blacks.
>
> > This is the definition of the Arbitron game that
> > I had mentioned earlier.
>
> ... on which you could not be more wrong. The Arbitron
> sample is totally proportional, within achievable
> statistical ranges. It is, in fact, as perfect a sample as
> can be obtained for the money and for the methodology.
>
> Please check the definitions in statistics of
> "proportionality" and "indexing" as you are not using them
> correctly.

Again, thanks.

> > That is why it's imperative to
> > create as mainstream and mass appeal a pool of listening
> as
> > possible to feed the diaries from all different directions
>
> > and making sure that you maximize the number of HOT ZIPs
> in
> > your area.
>
> Hot ZIPs have to do with where the listeners live. Different
> formats perform better in different areas, due to factors as
> diverse as socioeconomic levels, ethnicity concentrations,
> age averages, etc.

Agreed, and the areas in the major contours of the Energy signals served their audience well, since that is where they had the most concentrated listenership, because those are the ares that they identified that they wanted to serve.

> > Yes, agreed; Bill is VERY pro-dance and, as a company, SBS
>
> > decided that dance would not be profitable in the Chicago
> > market, especially since they had no one in the market
> that
> > they trusted to execute the format.
>
> Were Tanner to have believed in the format, he would have
> hired someone. Since Energy had a history of losing money,
> per the financials, they probably thought it was not worth
> it.
> >
> > Well, turns out that La Onda was a much bigger disaster
> than
> > they would have liked.
> >
>
> Every company has wins and non-wins. You just try to keep
> most in the plus side.

This is exactly what I've been saying all along. Try to keep everything on the plus side.<P ID="signature">______________
Rob Austin
Vice President
JamTraxx Media Inc.
http://www.jamtraxxmedia.com
"Major Market Solutions for Your Radio Station's Needs!"</P>