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REC Collecting Part 15 AM Station Data

R

rec

REC Networks has announced today that it is collecting information about existing "Part 15 AM" operations. Specifically, REC is requesting the operators of Part 15 AM stations to volunteer some information to REC which will be included in a database.

Part 15 AM Broadcast Stations are extremely low power AM radio stations that are unlicensed and operate by rule. While some Part 15 operations are for utility purposes such as "talking real estate signs" and car dealerships, many of these stations are operated by schools, churches and individuals to provide local information to their communities. While many LPAM stations have an effective range of about a mile around the transmitter, some stations have been able to achieve listeners several miles away and stay within the FCC guidelines. Part 15 AM Stations may operate commercial or non-commercial without auctions or regulatory fees.

The Part 15 AM database will be used for the REC LPAM Channel Search to warn users of potential Part 15 AM Broadcast Station activity in the area and provide guidance on frequency selection to allow the LPAM and the Part 15 station to co-exist. Aggregate information about Part 15 AM stations in general will also be collected from this information.

REC will not release the entire database except to reputable pro-LPAM organizations. This is to prevent the list from falling into commercial hands. Recently, current and former operators of Part 15 stations were contacted by a performance rights organization based on outdated station listing information from a Part 15 website.

We are asking all Part 15 AM Broadcast Stations to please participate in this database program. It will only take a few minutes of your time. Please read the FAQ which details the project and what the information will and won't be used for.
www.LPAM.WS/part15
 
> The Part 15 AM database will be used for the REC LPAM
> Channel Search to warn users of potential Part 15 AM
> Broadcast Station activity in the area and provide guidance
> on frequency selection to allow the LPAM and the Part 15
> station to co-exist.

Why not wait until an LPAM service is actually under serious consideration by the F.C.C.?

At best, isn't this idea several years premature?

Please explain.

DE
 
What?

> The Part 15 AM database will be used for the REC LPAM
> Channel Search to warn users of potential Part 15 AM
> Broadcast Station activity in the area and provide guidance
> on frequency selection to allow the LPAM and the Part 15
> station to co-exist. Aggregate information about Part 15 AM
> stations in general will also be collected from this
> information.
>

What?

I don't need warnings about Part 15 or LPAM (no such thing yet) activity in my area.

What benefit would any part15 station derive from this listing? Would they gain thousands of listeners because they found it on the internet?

You wrote:

"Please read the FAQ which details the project and what the information will and won't be used for."

I write:

"The information you don't have won't be used for anything.".

On your link you state:

"We collect strictly information about your station".

I have no idea what you are talking about. Why should anyone give you the information you request?
 
Re: What?

> What?
>
> I don't need warnings about Part 15 or LPAM (no such thing
> yet) activity in my area.
>
> What benefit would any part15 station derive from this
> listing? Would they gain thousands of listeners because
> they found it on the internet?
>
> You wrote:
>
> "Please read the FAQ which details the project and what the
> information will and won't be used for."
>
> I write:
>
> "The information you don't have won't be used for
> anything.".
>
> On your link you state:
>
> "We collect strictly information about your station".
>
> I have no idea what you are talking about. Why should
> anyone give you the information you request?

Umm, I think it's so prospective Part 15ers will know what channels others are operating on in their area to prevent interference.
 
Re: What?

> Umm, I think it's so prospective Part 15ers will know what
> channels others are operating on in their area to prevent
> interference.
>
Me too. My main objection is that I do not want to give information just for the sake of giving information, especially when one does not really know where it is going to be used. Disclaimers are worthless.

Others can do what they want, but I opt out.
 
***DE and Neil, this database is not necessary. At one time I had a pretty decent list of part 15 AM stations on my website but I pulled it off as soon as I heard BMI was going to contact stations about licensing fees.

It is not wise to simply hand out private information to someone you don't know regarding your part 15 station. Even if REC's intentions are honorable, that information is now public and anyone can use it as they see fit.

And Neil is absolutely correct when stating such a service is not needed. Anyone with half a brain can use the FCC database plus other resources to determine where the nearest licensed stations are. And it is also very easy to simply listen to your radio to see if another part 15 station is in the area before choosing a frequency.



> > The Part 15 AM database will be used for the REC LPAM
> > Channel Search to warn users of potential Part 15 AM
> > Broadcast Station activity in the area and provide
> guidance
> > on frequency selection to allow the LPAM and the Part 15
> > station to co-exist.
>
> Why not wait until an LPAM service is actually under serious
> consideration by the F.C.C.?
>
> At best, isn't this idea several years premature?
>
> Please explain.
>
> DE
>
 
Re: What?

What will this data be used for?

(1) It will be used to have a registry of Part 15 AM operations in the event that the FCC approves a licensed LPAM service. REC is the leading provider of free database information to the LPFM community and ran the original LPFM Channel Search. The registry of Part 15 stations is going to be integrated into our LPAM search tool and will warn propsective LPAM applicants of Part 15 stations that may be operating on a particular frequency they are interested in using for their LPAM station.

(2) As mentioned, we could also use the data for people to find Part 15 stations in their area to either assist them in finding a channel for their own LPAM station or for those who just want to listen to your station.

(3) We are aware that there are some in the LPAM community who are endorsing that LPAM stations be required to protect Part 15 stations. Without any kind of a comprehensive list of Part 15 stations, there's no way such a protection can be ever enforced.

(4) There lacks a really good database of Part 15 AM Broadcast operations. Many lists are just that, lists that are not updated. We would like to see more of a live system that has more current information and offered in a way where the data can not be commercial exploited (BMI).

REC Networks is non-commercial and has existed for over 20 years and has been providing broadcast database services since 1998. We do not sell data. We never have and never will.
 
Thank You, William

Well stated.

Personally, although REC's intentions are well-meaning, I don't feel that this is a good time to create a Part 15 data base. Let's wait a few years.

DE


> ***DE and Neil, this database is not necessary. At one time
> I had a pretty decent list of part 15 AM stations on my
> website but I pulled it off as soon as I heard BMI was going
> to contact stations about licensing fees.
>
> It is not wise to simply hand out private information to
> someone you don't know regarding your part 15 station. Even
> if REC's intentions are honorable, that information is now
> public and anyone can use it as they see fit.
>
> And Neil is absolutely correct when stating such a service
> is not needed. Anyone with half a brain can use the FCC
> database plus other resources to determine where the nearest
> licensed stations are. And it is also very easy to simply
> listen to your radio to see if another part 15 station is in
> the area before choosing a frequency.
>
>
>
> > > The Part 15 AM database will be used for the REC LPAM
> > > Channel Search to warn users of potential Part 15 AM
> > > Broadcast Station activity in the area and provide
> > guidance
> > > on frequency selection to allow the LPAM and the Part 15
>
> > > station to co-exist.
> >
> > Why not wait until an LPAM service is actually under
> serious
> > consideration by the F.C.C.?
> >
> > At best, isn't this idea several years premature?
> >
> > Please explain.
> >
> > DE
> >
>
 
Re: What?

> What will this data be used for?
>
> (1) It will be used to have a registry of Part 15 AM
> operations in the event that the FCC approves a licensed
> LPAM service. REC is the leading provider of free database
> information to the LPFM community and ran the original LPFM
> Channel Search. The registry of Part 15 stations is going
> to be integrated into our LPAM search tool and will warn
> propsective LPAM applicants of Part 15 stations that may be
> operating on a particular frequency they are interested in
> using for their LPAM station.
>
> (2) As mentioned, we could also use the data for people to
> find Part 15 stations in their area to either assist them in
> finding a channel for their own LPAM station or for those
> who just want to listen to your station.
>
> (3) We are aware that there are some in the LPAM community
> who are endorsing that LPAM stations be required to protect
> Part 15 stations. Without any kind of a comprehensive list
> of Part 15 stations, there's no way such a protection can be
> ever enforced.
>
> (4) There lacks a really good database of Part 15 AM
> Broadcast operations. Many lists are just that, lists that
> are not updated. We would like to see more of a live system
> that has more current information and offered in a way where
> the data can not be commercial exploited (BMI).
>
> REC Networks is non-commercial and has existed for over 20
> years and has been providing broadcast database services
> since 1998. We do not sell data. We never have and never
> will.
>
Hello and thanks for the information.

I may have been harsh in my first post under your announcement, but my comments are based on lots of experience and a well developed defense mechanism about disclosing my information. When someone asks me for data, I assess the need and the benefit to me before I comply. I simply do not see a need for your service, but thanks for trying. If others do, that is fine with me.

The fact that you do not sell data implies that it is available for free. This can still cause damage. What is the difference to me whether my data is distributed free or for a charge, and potentially causes harm?

Neil
 
Re: What?

> What will this data be used for?
>
> (1) It will be used to have a registry of Part 15 AM
> operations in the event that the FCC approves a licensed
> LPAM service. REC is the leading provider of free database
> information to the LPFM community and ran the original LPFM
> Channel Search. The registry of Part 15 stations is going
> to be integrated into our LPAM search tool and will warn
> propsective LPAM applicants of Part 15 stations that may be
> operating on a particular frequency they are interested in
> using for their LPAM station.
>
> (2) As mentioned, we could also use the data for people to
> find Part 15 stations in their area to either assist them in
> finding a channel for their own LPAM station or for those
> who just want to listen to your station.
>
> (3) We are aware that there are some in the LPAM community
> who are endorsing that LPAM stations be required to protect
> Part 15 stations. Without any kind of a comprehensive list
> of Part 15 stations, there's no way such a protection can be
> ever enforced.
>
> (4) There lacks a really good database of Part 15 AM
> Broadcast operations. Many lists are just that, lists that
> are not updated. We would like to see more of a live system
> that has more current information and offered in a way where
> the data can not be commercial exploited (BMI).
>
> REC Networks is non-commercial and has existed for over 20
> years and has been providing broadcast database services
> since 1998. We do not sell data. We never have and never
> will.
>
This is one of the most useless services I've ever heard of!..."Yup, I'll make it my #1 priority to get right on that."............
If there ever will be a licenced LPAM service, Part 15 will be (as it is now) relegated to interference status, which means simply that the operator will have to move to a different frequency.......There is no need to advertise a service that may or may not have a range of several miles; there is literally no one (except in a city and that is doubtful) that would write anyone inquiring about a part 15 service they could listen to.
>>>it sounds like a good way to give BMI more information than it currently has.<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected], [email protected],[email protected]</P>
 
Re: What?

> > What will this data be used for?
> >
> > (1) It will be used to have a registry of Part 15 AM
> > operations in the event that the FCC approves a licensed
> > LPAM service. REC is the leading provider of free
> database
> > information to the LPFM community and ran the original
> LPFM
> > Channel Search. The registry of Part 15 stations is going
>
> > to be integrated into our LPAM search tool and will warn
> > propsective LPAM applicants of Part 15 stations that may
> be
> > operating on a particular frequency they are interested in
>
> > using for their LPAM station.
> >
> > (2) As mentioned, we could also use the data for people to
>
> > find Part 15 stations in their area to either assist them
> in
> > finding a channel for their own LPAM station or for those
> > who just want to listen to your station.
> >
> > (3) We are aware that there are some in the LPAM community
>
> > who are endorsing that LPAM stations be required to
> protect
> > Part 15 stations. Without any kind of a comprehensive
> list
> > of Part 15 stations, there's no way such a protection can
> be
> > ever enforced.
> >
> > (4) There lacks a really good database of Part 15 AM
> > Broadcast operations. Many lists are just that, lists
> that
> > are not updated. We would like to see more of a live
> system
> > that has more current information and offered in a way
> where
> > the data can not be commercial exploited (BMI).
> >
> > REC Networks is non-commercial and has existed for over 20
>
> > years and has been providing broadcast database services
> > since 1998. We do not sell data. We never have and never
>
> > will.
> >
> This is one of the most useless services I've ever heard
> of!..."Yup, I'll make it my #1 priority to get right on
> that."............
> If there ever will be a licenced LPAM service, Part 15 will
> be (as it is now) relegated to interference status, which
> means simply that the operator will have to move to a
> different frequency.......There is no need to advertise a
> service that may or may not have a range of several miles;
> there is literally no one (except in a city and that is
> doubtful) that would write anyone inquiring about a part 15
> service they could listen to.
> >>>it sounds like a good way to give BMI more information
> than it currently has.
>

After sitting on the sidelines for a bit. Please don't take offense to this, but it just seems like some Part-15 AM hobbyists are displaying a HUGE amount of paranoia and self-importance.

Rich Eyre has been an awesome advocate for Low(er) Power broadcasting and was instrumental in seeing the LPFM rulemanking through. Oftentimes, his contributions and sincere enthusiam are not appreciated.

Rich came on this board to offer a free service and tremendous resource to the hobbyists in exchange for a little cooperation. In response, he gets attacked.

Look, as a professional broadcaster and license-holder, I appreciate your enthusiam and passion for your hobby. But lets call it what it is: a hobby. It's folks playing programs and music that can be heard on average about the length of a football field, and sometimes, if you are lucky, further than that. With maybe a few rare exceptions, a Part 15 device is pretty much limited to your own listening and enjoyment... and maybe that of a few neighbors. Enjoy the hobby and fun of it all, but please disabuse yourself of the idea that Part 15 is going to be the next revolution in media. It's not. 1kw AM's in most markets struggle for listeners because the larger population simply can't get the signal in and Part 15 strength is even worse than that (by design and regulation, I might add). Again, enjoy, but stop attacking someone that is helping you.

I enjoy reading what the real tech-oriented folks have to say about the engineering aspects of the hobby. It's pretty neat stuff. But to the casual reader, the impression (perhaps unfairly so) is that Part-15 AM enthusiasts are a bunch of paranoid kooks.
 
Re: What?

***Uh, how can someone with no prior, practical experience in part 15 AM broadcasting help by creating a database of part 15 stations that can be accessed by BMI? I know for a fact he does not have experience with part 15 AM because he admitted this to me in a response to one of my e-mail messages to him last year.

I am still not convinced that BMI can simply go after an unlicensed radio station for fees. Have they attempted to contact any Pirate stations to impose such fees? For this reason alone, people should be wary of such a database. Part15.us still has one and I would be wary of that group as well. Until I see some LEGAL documentation that proves Part 15 stations must pay these fees then I am going to continue to be a skeptic.

And I should add that REC is also an advocate for NON COMMERCIAL ONLY Licensed LPAM? Anyone foolish enough to attempt such a venture will surely wind up in the poor house. The ONLY non commercial AM stations that can even garner enough support to survive are those stations that are run by schools and NPR. Why don't small, non profit groups run non commercial AM stations? Because they can't afford to.

I'd say that while REC may have a sincere interest in "helping" the community broadcasters of the world, they are out of touch with what is truly in the best interest of community broadcasters.


> > > What will this data be used for?
> > >
> > > (1) It will be used to have a registry of Part 15 AM
> > > operations in the event that the FCC approves a licensed
>
> > > LPAM service. REC is the leading provider of free
> > database
> > > information to the LPFM community and ran the original
> > LPFM
> > > Channel Search. The registry of Part 15 stations is
> going
> >
> > > to be integrated into our LPAM search tool and will warn
>
> > > propsective LPAM applicants of Part 15 stations that may
>
> > be
> > > operating on a particular frequency they are interested
> in
> >
> > > using for their LPAM station.
> > >
> > > (2) As mentioned, we could also use the data for people
> to
> >
> > > find Part 15 stations in their area to either assist
> them
> > in
> > > finding a channel for their own LPAM station or for
> those
> > > who just want to listen to your station.
> > >
> > > (3) We are aware that there are some in the LPAM
> community
> >
> > > who are endorsing that LPAM stations be required to
> > protect
> > > Part 15 stations. Without any kind of a comprehensive
> > list
> > > of Part 15 stations, there's no way such a protection
> can
> > be
> > > ever enforced.
> > >
> > > (4) There lacks a really good database of Part 15 AM
> > > Broadcast operations. Many lists are just that, lists
> > that
> > > are not updated. We would like to see more of a live
> > system
> > > that has more current information and offered in a way
> > where
> > > the data can not be commercial exploited (BMI).
> > >
> > > REC Networks is non-commercial and has existed for over
> 20
> >
> > > years and has been providing broadcast database services
>
> > > since 1998. We do not sell data. We never have and
> never
> >
> > > will.
> > >
> > This is one of the most useless services I've ever heard
> > of!..."Yup, I'll make it my #1 priority to get right on
> > that."............
> > If there ever will be a licenced LPAM service, Part 15
> will
> > be (as it is now) relegated to interference status, which
> > means simply that the operator will have to move to a
> > different frequency.......There is no need to advertise a
> > service that may or may not have a range of several miles;
>
> > there is literally no one (except in a city and that is
> > doubtful) that would write anyone inquiring about a part
> 15
> > service they could listen to.
> > >>>it sounds like a good way to give BMI more information
> > than it currently has.
> >
>
> After sitting on the sidelines for a bit. Please don't take
> offense to this, but it just seems like some Part-15 AM
> hobbyists are displaying a HUGE amount of paranoia and
> self-importance.
>
> Rich Eyre has been an awesome advocate for Low(er) Power
> broadcasting and was instrumental in seeing the LPFM
> rulemanking through. Oftentimes, his contributions and
> sincere enthusiam are not appreciated.
>
> Rich came on this board to offer a free service and
> tremendous resource to the hobbyists in exchange for a
> little cooperation. In response, he gets attacked.
>
> Look, as a professional broadcaster and license-holder, I
> appreciate your enthusiam and passion for your hobby. But
> lets call it what it is: a hobby. It's folks playing
> programs and music that can be heard on average about the
> length of a football field, and sometimes, if you are lucky,
> further than that. With maybe a few rare exceptions, a Part
> 15 device is pretty much limited to your own listening and
> enjoyment... and maybe that of a few neighbors. Enjoy the
> hobby and fun of it all, but please disabuse yourself of the
> idea that Part 15 is going to be the next revolution in
> media. It's not. 1kw AM's in most markets struggle for
> listeners because the larger population simply can't get the
> signal in and Part 15 strength is even worse than that (by
> design and regulation, I might add). Again, enjoy, but stop
> attacking someone that is helping you.
>
> I enjoy reading what the real tech-oriented folks have to
> say about the engineering aspects of the hobby. It's pretty
> neat stuff. But to the casual reader, the impression
> (perhaps unfairly so) is that Part-15 AM enthusiasts are a
> bunch of paranoid kooks.
>
 
Re: What?

> The fact that you do not sell data implies that it is
> available for free. This can still cause damage. What is
> the difference to me whether my data is distributed free or
> for a charge, and potentially causes harm?

Just to give you an idea, here's the information I ask for:
- Station name/slogan. (such as "1260, The Blaze", etc.)
- The community and state you serve (such as "Tempe, AZ")
- Approximate geographic coodinates (you do NOT have to give your exact location, just any location within the general area so the search tools will be able to correctly identify your general vicinity)
- Frequency

(Optional information that you do not have to provide includes:)
- A "callsign" (up to 10 characters)
- A website URL

You will have a password and will be assigned a short facility ID number. This way, if you ever want to change or want to delete your record, you can do so.

** Who would we share the information with? **
The entire database would not be disclosed openly (this is due to issues like the recent BMI debacle).. However, if reputable groups whom I have had very long-term relationships with such as Amherst or Prometheus was interested in the data, we could provide it to them if I feel that it is appropriate. I feel that groups like this may only be interested in aggregate data (see below)..

Individual station information could be disclosed to those who enter a location in an REC database tool no further than 15 km away. This way, if BMI wanted to find every Part15 station, they would have to search for a v-e-r-y long time. (Also, we are NOT collecting any contact information from you such as a real name, e-mail address, postal address, etc. and the submission of a website address is totally optional.. We don't really need to know about you, the Part 15 operator, we care about the facility only.). This project was designed keeping in mind that some would be hesitant to participate if too much information was being collected.

I can also use the aggregate data when communicating with the FCC. Aggregate data means that no specific information is used but instead, general statistics about Part 15 stations. I can make statements in support of Part 15 radio such as "REC is aware of xxx Part 15 AM stations operating in the United States.". There is strength in numbers. REC believes in a Part 15 service for both AM and FM. In the past, we have made suggestions in attempts to support the service.

I feel that the information that I am asking for is very basic and non-contraversial. The most contraversial item (the website) is optional. I just feel it's about time that Part 15 AM stations be recognized and integrated into our broadcast database tools.

ec
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by rec on 11/16/05 12:04 AM.</FONT></P>
 
Re: What?

> ***Uh, how can someone with no prior, practical experience
> in part 15 AM broadcasting help by creating a database of
> part 15 stations that can be accessed by BMI? I know for a
> fact he does not have experience with part 15 AM because he
> admitted this to me in a response to one of my e-mail
> messages to him last year.

William, Part 15 devices are hobby and experimental devices. There are some folks like Antenna Guy Carl, who have practical RF experience, who use their skills to see what they can do within the limits of the regulations, but the whole premise of a Part 15 device is that no highly technical skills are needed to operate them.

Part 15 by design has no future as a mass medium. You can hope, dream, and experiment and enjoy the device (and you should, because it is still satisfying to hear your stuff on the radio.. even if it is to the end of the driveway), but the rules of physics still apply.

On the other hand, licensed LPAM does have some potential for a lot of communities, if such issues as night service and the like can be worked out. I am confident that they will.

LPAM as a commercial service would be a total failure. 1kw local AMs struggle to survive, cut the power to 30 watts and you really have no chance. We intend to file comments in support of REC's comments.
 
Re: What?

***1 kw corporate stations running off satelite are indeed failures. 1 kw commercial stations in small cities and rural markets that offer local programming make some money. Here are just a few that do:

WBVP Beaver Falls, PA

WMBA Ambridge, PA

WLVL Lockport, NY

WDOE Dunkirk NY

WJTN Jamestown, NY

KAYS Hays, KS

WILI Willimantic, CT

And several hundred more in other cities and towns in Ohio, Missouri, Minnesota, Iowa and so on.

You and REC are truly out of touch on the issue of community radio. Part 15 is becoming more than a hobby. I have friends, personal friends that have taken the profits earned from part 15 AM and turned them into licensed stations!!!

Obviously you guys have no practical hands on experience in real radio other than non commercial, listener supported environments. If you want to beg for money from people to stay on the air then so be it. But some of us want to earn our paycheck the old fashioned way.

Most importantly, the best way to combat Wal Mart and McPuke is to allow Mom and Pop an opportunity to buy affordable advertising on the radio. This will help them to better compete and hold their own against the major corporations. It's people like you that contribute to the demise of the small markets in our cities and towns that many elderly and fixed income people rely upon for survival. Most can't get to a large supermarket in a suburban area thus they must shop at the stores in their neighborhood. Most of these little stores cannot afford to buy ad time on radio because it is too damn expensive. And they can't afford to buy ad's in the daily paper for the same reason. And a weekly? Still expensive and how many people really read it?

How do I know all this? I have in the past and presently live in just such an urban neighborhood.

Now that my learned friend, is the real world.



> > ***Uh, how can someone with no prior, practical experience
>
> > in part 15 AM broadcasting help by creating a database of
> > part 15 stations that can be accessed by BMI? I know for
> a
> > fact he does not have experience with part 15 AM because
> he
> > admitted this to me in a response to one of my e-mail
> > messages to him last year.
>
> William, Part 15 devices are hobby and experimental devices.
> There are some folks like Antenna Guy Carl, who have
> practical RF experience, who use their skills to see what
> they can do within the limits of the regulations, but the
> whole premise of a Part 15 device is that no highly
> technical skills are needed to operate them.
>
> Part 15 by design has no future as a mass medium. You can
> hope, dream, and experiment and enjoy the device (and you
> should, because it is still satisfying to hear your stuff on
> the radio.. even if it is to the end of the driveway), but
> the rules of physics still apply.
>
> On the other hand, licensed LPAM does have some potential
> for a lot of communities, if such issues as night service
> and the like can be worked out. I am confident that they
> will.
>
> LPAM as a commercial service would be a total failure. 1kw
> local AMs struggle to survive, cut the power to 30 watts and
> you really have no chance. We intend to file comments in
> support of REC's comments.
>
 
Re: What?

The late Reverend James Cunningham (missionary and broadcast engineer) emphasized the same thing in his low-power broadcasting handbook--that many Part 15 AM stations have made money and become full-power licensed stations after parleying their profits into upgrading and getting licences. -- JasonW

> ***1 kw corporate stations running off satelite are indeed
> failures. 1 kw commercial stations in small cities and
> rural markets that offer local programming make some money.
> Here are just a few that do:
>
> WBVP Beaver Falls, PA
>
> WMBA Ambridge, PA
>
> WLVL Lockport, NY
>
> WDOE Dunkirk NY
>
> WJTN Jamestown, NY
>
> KAYS Hays, KS
>
> WILI Willimantic, CT
>
> And several hundred more in other cities and towns in Ohio,
> Missouri, Minnesota, Iowa and so on.
>
> You and REC are truly out of touch on the issue of community
> radio. Part 15 is becoming more than a hobby. I have
> friends, personal friends that have taken the profits earned
> from part 15 AM and turned them into licensed stations!!!
>
> Obviously you guys have no practical hands on experience in
> real radio other than non commercial, listener supported
> environments. If you want to beg for money from people to
> stay on the air then so be it. But some of us want to earn
> our paycheck the old fashioned way.
>
> Most importantly, the best way to combat Wal Mart and McPuke
> is to allow Mom and Pop an opportunity to buy affordable
> advertising on the radio. This will help them to better
> compete and hold their own against the major corporations.
> It's people like you that contribute to the demise of the
> small markets in our cities and towns that many elderly and
> fixed income people rely upon for survival. Most can't get
> to a large supermarket in a suburban area thus they must
> shop at the stores in their neighborhood. Most of these
> little stores cannot afford to buy ad time on radio because
> it is too damn expensive. And they can't afford to buy ad's
> in the daily paper for the same reason. And a weekly?
> Still expensive and how many people really read it?
>
> How do I know all this? I have in the past and presently
> live in just such an urban neighborhood.
>
> Now that my learned friend, is the real world.
>
>
>
> > > ***Uh, how can someone with no prior, practical
> experience
> >
> > > in part 15 AM broadcasting help by creating a database
> of
> > > part 15 stations that can be accessed by BMI? I know
> for
> > a
> > > fact he does not have experience with part 15 AM because
>
> > he
> > > admitted this to me in a response to one of my e-mail
> > > messages to him last year.
> >
> > William, Part 15 devices are hobby and experimental
> devices.
> > There are some folks like Antenna Guy Carl, who have
> > practical RF experience, who use their skills to see what
> > they can do within the limits of the regulations, but the
> > whole premise of a Part 15 device is that no highly
> > technical skills are needed to operate them.
> >
> > Part 15 by design has no future as a mass medium. You can
>
> > hope, dream, and experiment and enjoy the device (and you
> > should, because it is still satisfying to hear your stuff
> on
> > the radio.. even if it is to the end of the driveway), but
>
> > the rules of physics still apply.
> >
> > On the other hand, licensed LPAM does have some potential
> > for a lot of communities, if such issues as night service
> > and the like can be worked out. I am confident that they
> > will.
> >
> > LPAM as a commercial service would be a total failure. 1kw
>
> > local AMs struggle to survive, cut the power to 30 watts
> and
> > you really have no chance. We intend to file comments in
> > support of REC's comments.
> >
>
 
Re: What?

> You and REC are truly out of touch on the issue of community
> radio. Part 15 is becoming more than a hobby. I have
> friends, personal friends that have taken the profits earned
> from part 15 AM and turned them into licensed stations!!!

You can't make money with just 1 mile (or less) of coverage. With computers and flourescent lights and metal buildings, AM is tough going even with 5kw. Even a 30 watt TIS station is real tough going during the daytime.

Love to see someone that has done that. I have yet to read about anyone making any substantial money with a Part 15.


> Obviously you guys have no practical hands on experience in
> real radio other than non commercial, listener supported
> environments. If you want to beg for money from people to
> stay on the air then so be it. But some of us want to earn
> our paycheck the old fashioned way.

20 years and counting of "real radio." Thank you. Commercial radio nonetheless. My part 15 device at home is good for sending webstreams from the computer in the office to the upper floors and, sometimes on a good day, to the end of the driveway. I guess I could sell ads based on the 5 or 6 people that live on either side of me, if they happen to like my tastes in programming.


> Most importantly, the best way to combat Wal Mart and McPuke
> is to allow Mom and Pop an opportunity to buy affordable
> advertising on the radio. This will help them to better
> compete and hold their own against the major corporations.
> It's people like you that contribute to the demise of the
> small markets in our cities and towns that many elderly and
> fixed income people rely upon for survival. Most can't get
> to a large supermarket in a suburban area thus they must
> shop at the stores in their neighborhood. Most of these
> little stores cannot afford to buy ad time on radio because
> it is too damn expensive. And they can't afford to buy ad's
> in the daily paper for the same reason. And a weekly?
> Still expensive and how many people really read it?

How many people can listen to Part 15 and that's really the issue. Even in my fairly dense neighborhood, you only have about 5,000 people in a one to two mile radius.


> How do I know all this? I have in the past and presently
> live in just such an urban neighborhood.

> Now that my learned friend, is the real world.

The real world is about the numbers. If your advertiser cannot get the station at their place of business and doesn't know anyone that can, no sales. Period. That is the reality of it. My licensed station has a hell of a lot more power and range than a Part 15 and we have large barriers to overcome dealing with coverage area. With a fancy Mr. Microphone, forget it.

You passionately believe otherwise. I wish I could have some of what you are smoking...
 
Re: What?

> The late Reverend James Cunningham (missionary and broadcast
> engineer) emphasized the same thing in his low-power
> broadcasting handbook--that many Part 15 AM stations have
> made money and become full-power licensed stations after
> parleying their profits into upgrading and getting licences.
> -- JasonW
>

I think it's important, though, to recognize RECNet's excellent work in behalf of community radio. The LPFM/AM channel finder and FCC database search engine is incredible.

Having said that, I did argue for commercial LPAM in my comments to the FCC. If it means an auction, well, hopefully the methods and money can be modified to reflect the modest nature of LPAM.

The one poster who was whining about how hard a time he's having with his own commercial AM station is missing the point of what LPAM is really to be. It's not about throwing out generic programming (like yet another "talk" radio) to a wide swath of people, hoping some will tune in. LPAM is targeted programming designed to appeal to a select demographic. Those who have LPAM stations and live within the community know it, know it's people and, therefore, have unique knowledge of what would appeal to them. For LPAM content truly would be king.

Since commercial AM broadcasters are the ones who have held sway over the band for decades, they are the ones who are directly responsible for the sad state AM radio is in today. One engineer on another board said that one key reason why AM radio sounds so crappy, is not the technology per se, but because many stations either have old or poorly maintained equipment. Couple that with indifferent, loss leader programming and you have stations that are destined to have no listeners and be awash in red ink.

I gather that most LPAM's would be run by people like us (the "paranoid" as one joker said) who truly love AM radio.

db
 
Re: What?

***You wish you could have some of what I am smoking? You sir, are an ignorant jackasss.

Village Radio of Montclair, NJ is one part 15 AM station that over the years has made some money with a local format. Radio Omega of Lebanon, PA is the most successful such station in recent years. My friend Doug, took the profits from that station and built a new LPFM. Chris DiPaola, the owner of WCTD AM 1620 in Westerly, RI took the proceeds of his part 15 station and built a 100 watt non commercial. At its peak that station's gross revenue was 35k. Talk to Keith Hamilton and he'll tell you that numerous customers have bought one or more transmitters to cover an area and are using them to turn a profit.

You said you can't make money with 1 mile or less of coverage. Well, I just outlined 3 SPECIFIC cases where it has been done. And since I know these people personally and I am familiar with their successes, I know it can be done.

A single Rangemaster located in some urban areas with a dense population will be able to reach tens of thousands of potential listeners. I did studies of certain neighborhoods and suburbs of Cincinnati and determined that one transmitter with a mile radius could reach more than 20,000 people in several places? That is more potential listeners than many licensed full power stations can reach in remote rural areas.

You need to educate yourself before you make any more assinine statements like you have. It only serves to distort the true picture of part 15 AM broadcasting.

Do you work for the NAB or NPR?


> > You and REC are truly out of touch on the issue of
> community
> > radio. Part 15 is becoming more than a hobby. I have
> > friends, personal friends that have taken the profits
> earned
> > from part 15 AM and turned them into licensed stations!!!
>
> You can't make money with just 1 mile (or less) of coverage.
> With computers and flourescent lights and metal buildings,
> AM is tough going even with 5kw. Even a 30 watt TIS station
> is real tough going during the daytime.
>
> Love to see someone that has done that. I have yet to read
> about anyone making any substantial money with a Part 15.
>
>
> > Obviously you guys have no practical hands on experience
> in
> > real radio other than non commercial, listener supported
> > environments. If you want to beg for money from people to
>
> > stay on the air then so be it. But some of us want to
> earn
> > our paycheck the old fashioned way.
>
> 20 years and counting of "real radio." Thank you. Commercial
> radio nonetheless. My part 15 device at home is good for
> sending webstreams from the computer in the office to the
> upper floors and, sometimes on a good day, to the end of the
> driveway. I guess I could sell ads based on the 5 or 6
> people that live on either side of me, if they happen to
> like my tastes in programming.
>
>
> > Most importantly, the best way to combat Wal Mart and
> McPuke
> > is to allow Mom and Pop an opportunity to buy affordable
> > advertising on the radio. This will help them to better
> > compete and hold their own against the major corporations.
>
> > It's people like you that contribute to the demise of the
> > small markets in our cities and towns that many elderly
> and
> > fixed income people rely upon for survival. Most can't
> get
> > to a large supermarket in a suburban area thus they must
> > shop at the stores in their neighborhood. Most of these
> > little stores cannot afford to buy ad time on radio
> because
> > it is too damn expensive. And they can't afford to buy
> ad's
> > in the daily paper for the same reason. And a weekly?
> > Still expensive and how many people really read it?
>
> How many people can listen to Part 15 and that's really the
> issue. Even in my fairly dense neighborhood, you only have
> about 5,000 people in a one to two mile radius.
>
>
> > How do I know all this? I have in the past and presently
> > live in just such an urban neighborhood.
>
> > Now that my learned friend, is the real world.
>
> The real world is about the numbers. If your advertiser
> cannot get the station at their place of business and
> doesn't know anyone that can, no sales. Period. That is the
> reality of it. My licensed station has a hell of a lot more
> power and range than a Part 15 and we have large barriers to
> overcome dealing with coverage area. With a fancy Mr.
> Microphone, forget it.
>
> You passionately believe otherwise. I wish I could have some
> of what you are smoking...
>
 
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