• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

% Reduction - AM reception range - increased noise - 1920 to 2024

Most of your city is in one zip code. I don't know exactly where your place is, but if you plug the main zip into V-Soft, KNWZ (970) is the only AM that has more than 3.5 mV/m of signal strength, which isn't going to get the job done reliably inside any structure.
My radio market has a "bunch" of ZIP codes, ranging from Palm Springs to Thermal. In radio, we don't deal with "cities" but with Metro Survey Areas. And there are 7 AMs in the MSA.
It shows 13.37 mV/m for KNWZ, but that is from the reference coordinates, so it might be less depending on the precise location inside the zip code. And it is just an estimate regardless. I wouldn't be surprised if it overestimates real world signal strengths in most cases.
With the noise in desert areas like Phoenix, Las Vegas, Hermosillo, and similar large metros being even higher than more temperate or rainier locations, it takes at least 10 mV/m to be listenable in most situations.
 
Okay, here is what I found scanning the band between 3:15 PM and 3:45 PM today in exactly the same physical location and environment as yesterday. This time I went about things the way an ordinary listener would: no physical wired connection for recording audio between the radio and anything else. Otherwise I still rotated the receiver for each frequency to find the best signal strength before noting it down, and it was the same radio (DX-286), still 3 feet from the same desktop PC + LCD as yesterday -- both still powered on, of course.

Other environmental considerations: 6 feet in front of me in the same room, and also powered on: a large LCD TV, two Roku players (wall warted), some WDTV multimedia players (wall warted), an ATSC tuner (in standby), and a DVD recorder (in standby). Directly above me through an 8 foot ceiling, another powered up desktop PC with LCD monitor, an 802.11 router (on), a cable modem (on), another powered Roku with wall wart, and another LED TV (standby). No interior lights on anywhere, central air conditioning running. Surrounded by woodframe houses in a typical suburban tract development with above-ground power lines and with a pole with a transformer in one corner of my back yard. The room I'm in adjoins that back yard.

5 stars = 100% quieting
4 stars = light white noise
3 stars = medium white noise (same amplitude as music/speech)
2 stars = high white noise (but 100% word recognition)
1 stars = mostly white noise (recognize presence of male vs. female speech and vs. music, but word comprehension is 0%)
½ stars = recognize presence of faint audio but cannot discern if speech or music
¼ stars = recognize presence of "something" (random scratches of white noise louder than background white noise, but verified to not be adjacent station splatter)

So for example 1½ stars = 50% word recognition.

540 ** / spanish
570 **** / english
590 ** / english religion
600 ** / english
640 ***** / english
670 *½ / non-english unknown (post-scan radio-locator.com lookup: iranian)
690 ** / spanish
710 ***** / english
740 ***½ / english religion
790 ***½ / english
830 **** / sports
860 *½ / spanish
870 ****½ / english
900 ***½ / spanish
930 **** / english
950 ** / spanish
960 *½ / english
980 ****½ / spanish
1000 ** / english
1020 ***** / spanish
1050 ½ / ?
1070 ***** / english
1090 *** / english
1110 ***** / english
1150 ***** / english
1190 **** / asian
1220 ***½ / spanish
1230 **½ / japanese?
1240 *½ / spanish
1260 **½ / wildcard
1280 *** / english religion
1290 *½ / english
1300 **** / asian
1330 ** / spanish
1350 *¼ / english sports
1390 **** / spanish
1410 *½ / spanish music
1430 **½ / asian
1440 ** / english "black information network riverside"
1460 **½ / spanish
1480 **½ / asian
1490 ½ / ?
1520 ¼ / ?
1540 ****½ / asian
1580 ***½ / english
1600 *** / asian
1650 ***½ / asian
1670 *½ / spanish

Same by strength:

640 ***** / english
710 ***** / english
1020 ***** / spanish
1070 ***** / english
1110 ***** / english
1150 ***** / english
870 ****½ / english
980 ****½ / spanish
1540 ****½ / asian
570 **** / english
830 **** / sports
930 **** / english
1190 **** / asian
1300 **** / asian
1390 **** / spanish
740 ***½ / english religion
790 ***½ / english
900 ***½ / spanish
1220 ***½ / spanish
1580 ***½ / english
1650 ***½ / asian
1090 *** / english
1280 *** / english religion
1600 *** / asian
1230 **½ / japanese?
1260 **½ / wildcard
1430 **½ / asian
1460 **½ / spanish
1480 **½ / asian
540 ** / spanish
590 ** / english religion
600 ** / english
690 ** / spanish
950 ** / spanish
1000 ** / english
1330 ** / spanish
1440 ** / english "black information network riverside"
670 *½ / non-english unknown
860 *½ / spanish
960 *½ / english
1240 *½ / spanish
1290 *½ / english
1410 *½ / spanish music
1670 *½ / spanish
1350 *¼ / english sports
1050 ½ / ?
1490 ½ / ?
1520 ¼ / ?

Station radio-locator.com says I should hear in my zipcode but don't: 610
Stations radio-locator.com says I shouldn't hear in my zipcode but do: 860, 950, 1240, 1350, 1410

If these results are impossible in the "8" zone that the FCC map seems to place me in, then I must either be on a vein of higher ground conductivity, or the DX-286 is a miracle machine, or perhaps a mixture of both.
One observation: the language of Iran is Farsi, and sometimes acceptably called Persian but "Iranian" is not a language. And most of the ones listed as "Asian" (which is not a language) are in a single language, such as Vietnamese on 1480, while 1540 and 1190 are in Korean, 1430 is in Cantonese Chinese, and so on.

Obviously, the conductivity of zones and areas does not have a hard line where it goes from, for example, 10 down to 5. There is a region in which the conductivity changes value due to the underlying geology. It sounds like you are on the better side of the zone you are in. And depending on the noise in your location from internal devices like wallwarts and solar panels and the like as well as exterior noise from "dusty" power line insulators and other RF noise generators, you could be in a cleaner location than is to be expected in dense metro areas.

In fact, on numerous occasions stations have done their own precise measurements in areas that affect their signal to define much more precisely the conductivity used to determine coverage as well as potential interference with co- and adjacent-channel stations. In most cases, such a study shows considerable deviation from the estimated conductivity on the FCC maps and charts.

Heck, it took them decades to understand that the conductivity of each of the Great Lakes is slightly different due to the "stuff" that is dissolved in the water in each one!
 
As for range, I can tell you from first-hand experience that 610, 680, 740 and 810 from San Francisco all came in like locals in Sacramento in the 1970s and 80s.

When I came to the area to live 11 years ago, that had changed. 610 is there, but barely (some of that could be engineering and processing choices made by Family that are the polar opposites of RKO when it owned the frequency), 740 and even 810 are a little noisy. And the noise floor has risen between 2013 and today. The only true monster remaining is 680.
 
As for range, I can tell you from first-hand experience that 610, 680, 740 and 810 from San Francisco all came in like locals in Sacramento in the 1970s and 80s.

When I came to the area to live 11 years ago, that had changed. 610 is there, but barely (some of that could be engineering and processing choices made by Family that are the polar opposites of RKO when it owned the frequency), 740 and even 810 are a little noisy. And the noise floor has risen between 2013 and today. The only true monster remaining is 680.
And this observation mirrors why the ITU has revised its "standard" in regards to the necessary signal strength of an AM station in order to be able to serve an area. I can remember when the ITU observed, back in the 70's, that 5 mV/m was needed in noisy urban areas. Then they said it was 10 mV/m and now it's 15 mV/m.

It's not that stations have deteriorated. It's that man-made noise has increased so much that it takes more brute force signal strength to make an AM station listenable now.
 
People knew years ago how to avoid interference on AM, the best they could, even average non tech people. Today with streaming no one needs AM radio, plus with all the new electronics around the noise level is much higher.
It is too bad AM can't be moved to a new band, but it looks like that will never happen.
Streaming is their only choice.
 
I just looked it up to be sure (at worldradiohistory.com):

KFRC, San Francisco (610 AM) tied for 7th 12+ in the April/May 1975 Sacramento Arbitron:

1. KCRA-AM (Adult Contemporary): 11.8
2. KEWT-FM (Beautiful Music): 11.1
3. KXOA-FM (Album Rock): 8.1
4. KROY-AM (Top 40): 7.7
5. KCTC-FM (Beautiful Music): 7.2
5. KRAK-AM (Country): 7.2
7. KFRC-AM (Top 40): 5.2
7. KGMS-AM (Adult Contemporary): 5.2
9. KNDE-AM (Top 40): 5.1
10. KSFM-FM (Album Rock): 5.0

...and from there, the dropoff in share was pretty drastic, with KGO, San Francisc (810 AM) showing up right on the heels of KFBK:

11. KZAP-FM (Album Rock): 2.7
12. KFBK-AM (News/Talk): 2.6
13. KGO-AM (News/Talk): 2.3


Everybody else was under a 2.

That book wasn't even KFRC's highest share. It did a 5.4 in the spring '76 book, but ranked a bit lower.
 
It's not that stations have deteriorated. It's that man-made noise has increased so much that it takes more brute force signal strength to make an AM station listenable now.
There is more background noise than before, I agree. I have to respectfully disagree with you about station facility deterioration, though. Copper in the ground will corrode over time. Many AM facilities are now upwards of 70-80 years old. If their ground systems haven't been refreshed, you have to wonder how effective is the copper still in the ground. Then there are copper thefts. For example, KDAZ in Albuquerque changed frequency, lowered power and went non-directional because of repeated problems with copper thefts. There are other instances. I've been made aware of one of the larger Kansas City broadcasters that has constant problems with theft due to its location in an isolated corner of Kansas City. So there are multiple factors involved: the noise is up and the quality of transmission is often down.

Even where there's no nearby source of electrical noise, groundwave performance seems to be down. I quoted a friend of mine who had taken a Potomac Instruments FIM to an isolated area of central Kansas in post #57 of the "AM Radio is dying" thread (https://radiodiscussions.com/threads/am-radio-is-dying.772772/page-3#post-6745310) - my friend wrote:

It is quite obvious there has been a steady, irreversible increase in the “grass-line” ambient noise level on AM from an infinite, growing number of interference producers. The performance of the AM/FM radio in my truck with a cowl-mounted whip antenna is rather good. Not down to the 20 microvolts or so with the FIM but maybe 50 which of course no “normal” person would put up with.

At some point the economic imperative simply becomes to give up in some manner, whether it's settling for inferior facilities or turning in the license altogether.
 
As for range, I can tell you from first-hand experience that 610, 680, 740 and 810 from San Francisco all came in like locals in Sacramento in the 1970s and 80s.

When I came to the area to live 11 years ago, that had changed. 610 is there, but barely (some of that could be engineering and processing choices made by Family that are the polar opposites of RKO when it owned the frequency), 740 and even 810 are a little noisy. And the noise floor has risen between 2013 and today. The only true monster remaining is 680.
I don't think Family made much in the way of processing changes on KEAR-ex-KFRC. Family's engineering is usually pretty competent.

There is construction going on from time to time around Aquatic Park in Berkeley near the tower but I doubt that it would have that much of an effect. Looks like the site is 65 years old when KRE built it, but KFRC has been on it for only around 56. Considering the proximity of salt water to the location, corrosion is a distinct possibility.

The following feels far-fetched to me, but I'll throw it out there anyway: possibly the vast amount of new residential construction in recent years in eastern Contra Costa County - for example, Brentwood - and, less so but still notable, up around Fairfield and Vacaville, has had an adverse effect on groundwave propagation.
 
I don't think Family made much in the way of processing changes on KEAR-ex-KFRC. Family's engineering is usually pretty competent.

There is construction going on from time to time around Aquatic Park in Berkeley near the tower but I doubt that it would have that much of an effect. Looks like the site is 65 years old when KRE built it, but KFRC has been on it for only around 56. Considering the proximity of salt water to the location, corrosion is a distinct possibility.

The following feels far-fetched to me, but I'll throw it out there anyway: possibly the vast amount of new residential construction in recent years in eastern Contra Costa County - for example, Brentwood - and, less so but still notable, up around Fairfield and Vacaville, has had an adverse effect on groundwave propagation.
Would PG&E burying power lines to prevent fires affect groundwave propagation?
 
I don't think Family made much in the way of processing changes on KEAR-ex-KFRC. Family's engineering is usually pretty competent.

There is construction going on from time to time around Aquatic Park in Berkeley near the tower but I doubt that it would have that much of an effect. Looks like the site is 65 years old when KRE built it, but KFRC has been on it for only around 56. Considering the proximity of salt water to the location, corrosion is a distinct possibility.

The following feels far-fetched to me, but I'll throw it out there anyway: possibly the vast amount of new residential construction in recent years in eastern Contra Costa County - for example, Brentwood - and, less so but still notable, up around Fairfield and Vacaville, has had an adverse effect on groundwave propagation.
Mark, I promise you that whatever processing 610 is running now is nowhere near the loudness and clarity when it was KFRC (I said “RKO” earlier, but it applied to Bedford and Infinity as well).
 
Mark, I promise you that whatever processing 610 is running now is nowhere near the loudness and clarity when it was KFRC (I said “RKO” earlier, but it applied to Bedford and Infinity as well).
It could be a conscious choice, then. It wouldn't surprise me. The old KEAR(FM) had pretty conservative processing from what I recall.
 
It could be a conscious choice, then. It wouldn't surprise me. The old KEAR(FM) had pretty conservative processing from what I recall.
From the Peninsula, 25-or-so miles due south of Aquatic Park: I just tuned in 610 KEAR using a 50 year old Sony tuner (into a Sony amp and H H Scott speakers), where the AM section has the old full-fidelity mask. It actually sounds pretty good (for a station I'd never intentionally tune in). If Family plugged in an aircheck of Dr. Don, I think it would sound quite acceptable. (BTW, no more than 6 feet from a wall of computing equipment.)
 
From the Peninsula, 25-or-so miles due south of Aquatic Park: I just tuned in 610 KEAR using a 50 year old Sony tuner (into a Sony amp and H H Scott speakers), where the AM section has the old full-fidelity mask. It actually sounds pretty good (for a station I'd never intentionally tune in). If Family plugged in an aircheck of Dr. Don, I think it would sound quite acceptable. (BTW, no more than 6 feet from a wall of computing equipment.)
It would be hard for me to judge. My former residence was in Oakland; where I stay on visits is in Emeryville where I could probably get KEAR on an electric toothbrush.
 
One observation: the language of Iran is Farsi, and sometimes acceptably called Persian but "Iranian" is not a language. And most of the ones listed as "Asian" (which is not a language) are in a single language, such as Vietnamese on 1480, while 1540 and 1190 are in Korean, 1430 is in Cantonese Chinese, and so on.
I noted down "Asian" because I can't distinguish many of those languages from one another by ear, and didn't want to check dozens of sites. However, you got me on Farsi. I knew that and wrote down Iranian without thinking.
Obviously, the conductivity of zones and areas does not have a hard line where it goes from, for example, 10 down to 5. There is a region in which the conductivity changes value due to the underlying geology.
Since you mention that, what do plate boundaries do to groundwave? I recall hearing that the San Andreas fault attenuated AM groundwave propagation. Michael posted right after you, mentioning his history of hearing numerous San Francisco stations in Sacramento, but without knowing which side of the fault their sticks are on, that doesn't tell me a whole lot. (Also, I would assume that if it did have an attenuation effect, it wouldn't necessarily be so severe as to stop propagation to such a short distance away as Sacramento.)

I just know that, even though I rarely DX, down here in the Los Angeles region, every "big" station I ever catch at night from afar seems to slowly fade in and out except for 740 in SF, and some from San Diego, suggesting I'm mainly receiving skywave.
As for range, I can tell you from first-hand experience that 610, 680, 740 and 810 from San Francisco all came in like locals in Sacramento in the 1970s and 80s.
740 always comes in down here like a semi-local, with only a soft layer of white noise in the reception. It's easily heard indoors. (I wonder if its CE is ever going to finish his transmitter tour video on Youtube. "Part 1" went up a few years ago, but nothing has come along since.)
5. KCTC-FM (Beautiful Music): 7.2
That brought back a memory. When I did occasionally DX in the 90s, for some reason I was virtually always able to pull in little KCTC-AM 1320 down here in the San Gabriel valley, with surprising clarity (about 2/3 audio, 1/3 noise). And I do mean almost always, even though nothing else from Sacramento -- including big signals like KFBK -- seemed to ever be audible to me. I recall the station being 5,000 watts day/night back then, which made its regularity all the more unusual. So much so I nearly wrote them to request a QSL card. But it was just an Entercom-owned automated MOYL station and I figured nobody would be around to reply. :)
 
Last edited:
Since you mention that, what do plate boundaries do to groundwave? I recall hearing that the San Andreas fault attenuated AM groundwave propagation. Michael posted right after you, mentioning his history of hearing numerous San Francisco stations in Sacramento, but without knowing which side of the fault their sticks are on, that doesn't tell me a whole lot. (Also, I would assume that if it did have an attenuation effect, it wouldn't necessarily be so severe as to stop propagation to such a short distance away as Sacramento.)
If this is a factor in reception, more important than the San Andreas would be the Hayward Fault, which runs under the Warren Freeway (Highway 13) and under the University of California football stadium. Mike would be on the other side of the Hayward Fault from those stations. I actually was, too, when I lived in Oakland because I was on the east side of 13. The Hayward Fault hasn’t had a major earthquake since 1868; experts have repeatedly said it’s overdue for one, and there are fairly frequent small quakes along it that tend to come at 3 or 4 o’clock in the morning.

I’m a bit dubious about faults being a factor in AM ground wave radio reception but I don’t think a study has ever been done on it, at least not I’m aware of.
 
Since you mention that, what do plate boundaries do to groundwave? I recall hearing that the San Andreas fault attenuated AM groundwave propagation. Michael posted right after you, mentioning his history of hearing numerous San Francisco stations in Sacramento, but without knowing which side of the fault their sticks are on, that doesn't tell me a whole lot. (Also, I would assume that if it did have an attenuation effect, it wouldn't necessarily be so severe as to stop propagation to such a short distance away as Sacramento.)
This is a truly interesting subject, and has not been well-studied. Our points of reference are generally AM stations that have randomly moved to the "other side" of a major fault line, and there is usually no comparative operation to contrast data with.

At one point, there was discussion of Sol's 540 AM in Hesperia which aimed its signal across the San Andreas fault at LA. But the lack of comparative data made that mostly supposition. And that major fault line is not the only one in the region, so many other smaller faults have to be considered; that means the lack of points of comparison is even more critical.
 
Would PG&E burying power lines to prevent fires affect groundwave propagation?
It might reduce AC hash near the transmission lines. Not sure it would affect groundwave. Most power poles are grounded somewhere, making the earth connected in some way to the AC used by the powerlines.
 
The M-3 Conductivity Maps, and previous ones, were "starting points", based on very little data, especially local variations. That's why it says "estimated". Much of the more detailed data was based on Class I-A and Class I-B measured contours, like the 15 mS/m region between the WLS site and St. Louis, and early directional antenna proofs of performance in the 1940s and 1950s. The Class III and Class II DA Data rarely went out more than 20 or 30 miles. In more recent years, many conductivity studies have been done for stations to upgrade. In many parts of Michigan, which I am most familiar with, the conductivity is much much less than M-3. These are not "fake", they are empirically accurate from driving and observing signals for decades, all over the state. More recently, I have been able to also confirm this using an FIM-41. To be sure, some may be "fake" elsewhere, as the late Glen Clark told me. He only trusted certain consultants doing the measurements.

In Colorado, a 250 watt Class D station has more recently been able to upgrade directionally, to 50000 watts Class D.

David is also very familiar with the areas of the NW Lower Peninsula of Michigan, and of Lake Michigan, where stations across the Lake have signals stronger than the ones just 20 or so miles inland. WTCM 1400, a Class IV when David spent a lot of time there, was able to move to 580 with 2500 watts, and with measured studies, was able to increase to 50000 watts Daytime. One of David's early jobs was at WCCW 1310, when it was just 1000 watts, then soon 5000 watts. They upgraded to 15000 watts Daytime from another site to go full-time, and had a CP for 50000 watts Daytime. They recently moved back to their original site with 15000 watts nondirectional, Class D, and looking through all the applications, they probably could be 50000 watts nondirectional from that original site. Much of the Lower Peninsula is shown as 8 mS/m, whereas the measured values are 0.1 mS/m in many areas, and in some rare small areas, up to 3 mS/m.

Recently, on Long Island, all 0.5 mS/m on M-3, a study near Patchogue showed radials where all the points were well below the 0.1 mS/m curve on the ground wave graph, the lowest on the graphs.

The Alaska and Hawaii conductivity maps show 4 mS/m near the coasts, and 2 mS/m inland, as I recall. There is very little detail.

There is a previous Conductivity Map in the Fourth Edition of the NAB Engineering Handbook, from 1949.

 
Last edited:
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom