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Remember When Radio Was Interesting?

landtuna said:
I don't need to remind you David that El A has a Latino population that is unlike virtually any other major metro area (with maybe the exception of the Cuban population of urban Miami). It hardly represents the average listening audience found in most other major markets. Even though the Boomer listening habits were once overwhelming in SoCal I would not expect El A to be representative of current trends.

The numbers in NY for WCBS are quite similar to those of KRTH in respect to the percent of the market, in the boomer age years, that listens to classic hits. The percentage of 48-66 that listens to CBS-FM each day for at least an hour is 8%. Each week, for at least an hour, 17%. Those that listen each week for at least 4 hours is just 7%.

And, aside from the fact that Miami Hispanics are only 50% Cuban, and totally different in radio usage than LA Hispanics, KRTH's cume is over half Hispanic.

I am an online listener of KODS in Reno. I realize it isn't a major market but Americom seems to make a living airing mostly local spots and doing it with live bodies behind the mic.

KODS is 17th in 25-54 in a market with only 14 viable stations... and is market 124, where nearly all business is local as non-local agency is only a tiny percentage of buys in small markets like that. The top couple of San Francisco stations each bill about the same as all the Reno stations combined.
 
RADIO TRUTH said:
[
WCBS-FM is an extremely bad example as the median year of their music is 1976 and they play almost nothing pre 1968.

It's actually quite a good example... it and WOGL in Philly are the prototypes of classic hits in the PPM world.

For all practical purposes, there are no "oldies" stations left in PPM markets... at least ones on full FM signals. Oldies appeals to pre-boomers, and is a sales nightmare.
 
DavidEduardo said:
The numbers in NY for WCBS are quite similar to those of KRTH in respect to the percent of the market, in the boomer age years, that listens to classic hits. The percentage of 48-66 that listens to CBS-FM each day for at least an hour is 8%. Each week, for at least an hour, 17%. Those that listen each week for at least 4 hours is just 7%.

Right. And would you agree that either 8% and/or 17% of the Boomer population is still a lot of listeners? That was my point. We may not make up the huge mass of humanity we once did when in our "saleable" years but we are still a force and stations targeting us can still earn a good living.

DavidEduardo said:
And, aside from the fact that Miami Hispanics are only 50% Cuban, and totally different in radio usage than LA Hispanics, KRTH's cume is over half Hispanic.

Living in the Southwest most of my life tells me that Hispanics near my age tend to have the same listening habits as non-Hispanics. Since we all grew up together in the same environment we all were pretty much exposed to the same kinds of music. I could also say the same about ethnic Asians up and down the coast. Younger Hispanics and especially recent arrivals tend to hold on to the music they heard where they came from.

My only point in comparing L.A. to Miami was that a significant number of residents are Hispanic and that would tend to skew the listening figures for those markets as compared with, say, Chicago or Seattle. I realize that people of Cuban and Mexican origin are not the same when it comes to culture and music taste.

DavidEduardo said:
KODS is 17th in 25-54 in a market with only 14 viable stations... and is market 124, where nearly all business is local as non-local agency is only a tiny percentage of buys in small markets like that. The top couple of San Francisco stations each bill about the same as all the Reno stations combined.

KODS is indeed a small fish in a small pond but their playlist is virtually perfect for me. And their presentation is more "old timey" as well. 103.7 in S.F. is close and so is KRTH. I haven't fallen in love with WCBS yet although I listen from time to time.
 
landtuna said:
Right. And would you agree that either 8% and/or 17% of the Boomer population is still a lot of listeners? That was my point.

I'd go with the people who listen a more significant time... around 8% of the boomer demo. However, the 55-66 portion of the boomer demo is useless for sales... there is just no radio money against any part of 55+.

So, we are talking about a portion of 25-54, specifically 48 to 55, and as that shrinks, classic hits stations will have to do more and more 70-80's and less late 60's and early 70's... because they don't reach big pieces of 25-54 otherwise.

There will always be a market for a gold station, but as years go by, the gold will have to be updated to be relevant to the sales demos... at least as long as radio is a relevant medium.

We may not make up the huge mass of humanity we once did when in our "saleable" years but we are still a force and stations targeting us can still earn a good living.

Living in the Southwest most of my life tells me that Hispanics near my age tend to have the same listening habits as non-Hispanics.

Two things here. First, many born-here, assimilated Hispanics have settled on general market stations, because nothing better existed. Given a choice, there will be rather interesting differences in taste. Those not born here will retain, always, their early adolescent music imprints... meaning they will try to find something with Spanish language music or the blend of English music they heard in the home country. That's why the leading Spanish language station in SF in 25-54 is classic hits KBRG... music of the 70's and 80's and 90's.

Younger Hispanics and especially recent arrivals tend to hold on to the music they heard where they came from.

And they will "hold onto" that music forever. For example, I can listen to some gold based English formats, because one station I listened to as a teen played lots of English, so I know the music and like some of it still. But, mostly, I listened to Spanish language pop and tropical, and that is what I listen to now. You would never catch me listening to English AC or, perish the thought, rock, or some other format as I don't have a history with that kind of music. Many focus groups I've conducted or moderated produce identical results... although if there is not the "right kind" of Spanish language station, sometimes one in English that has the right texture will be substituted.
 
DavidEduardo said:
However, the 55-66 portion of the boomer demo is useless for sales... there is just no radio money against any part of 55+.

You've said that many times yet KODS is making a good living advertising to those very people. People, I'd guess, are a major part of their casino ad biz. On the few times I've walked into casinos here in the Valley I don't see much of the younger demos. It's pretty much 55+. A target-rich audience for KODS. (Granted, cities other than those with a large gaming industry might not have this type of business opportunity.)

DavidEduardo said:
Two things here. First, many born-here, assimilated Hispanics have settled on general market stations, because nothing better existed. Given a choice, there will be rather interesting differences in taste. Those not born here will retain, always, their early adolescent music imprints... meaning they will try to find something with Spanish language music or the blend of English music they heard in the home country. That's why the leading Spanish language station in SF in 25-54 is classic hits KBRG... music of the 70's and 80's and 90's.

When I was growing up many of my school mates were first and second generation Mexican immigrants. AFAIK, virtually all of them knew Spanish (frequently it was the only language spoken at home) but outside the home they were virtually identical to the rest of us - including their tastes in the music of the day.

At a recent car show I met many owners of my generation who were still into the old car culture (hot rods, not low riders) and music of the late 50's, 60's and 70's. I even remember some of them saying their parents were "deeply ashamed" that they were changing cultures and not following the old ways - essentially the same things we white kids heard from our parents when Rock n Roll came along. In SoCal you can find a significant number of Asians who also follow that trend. They adopted surfing, car cruising, hanging out at the drive-ins just like all the other kids their age. It was that generation of kids I was referring to and not the newer arrivals who are tied much tighter to their former cultural roots.

In the Valley we have the predominately white East Valley and largely Hispanic West Valley. In attending high school soccer games I have noticed that there is a fair mix of both cultures on both sides of the field but on the "west" side there are Mexican flags flying, salsa music playing and Spanish is the common language. They are the recent immigrants who have yet to assimilate or perhaps are just trying to make a statement about their culture.

It might have made a difference that in the old days it was assimilate or die for kids. There were no ESL classes and the child's esteem quickly came under fire if they were "different". It seems today one could choose to live in an ethnic enclave and survive nicely without any contact with the greater USA culture. It also seems radio (and to a certain extent TV) are industries making that even more possible.

I have two adopted daughters that came to the USA from Romania as early teens. The younger one (13) quickly became fluent in English and adopted the dress, mannerisms and music that was popular with her peers. The other (15) held on much stronger to her heritage and to this day still prefers listening to Romanian music and speaking Romanian. I suspect they are typical of immigrant people no matter where they originate.
 
landtuna said:
You've said that many times yet KODS is making a good living advertising to those very people. People, I'd guess, are a major part of their casino ad biz. On the few times I've walked into casinos here in the Valley I don't see much of the younger demos. It's pretty much 55+. A target-rich audience for KODS. (Granted, cities other than those with a large gaming industry might not have this type of business opportunity.)

In smaller markets, local advertising is about all there is. In the case of the Reno station, we're talking market 124... not much national or regional agency stuff. Local direct often does not analyze buys based on ratings, just feel. Or, if they keep track, sales.

In any case, a station with geezer demos may have lots of ads... as many as the #1 25-54 station... but at rates that are waaaaay under those of thee leading station. KODS actually does OK, ranking a bit higher in billing rank than in 25-54. But any local agency money they get is probably taking into account a low rate and some 25-54 delivery.

When I was growing up many of my school mates were first and second generation Mexican immigrants.

To clarify terms, "first generation" means "immigrant. "Second generation" means born here and not, therefore, immigrants.

AFAIK, virtually all of them knew Spanish (frequently it was the only language spoken at home) but outside the home they were virtually identical to the rest of us - including their tastes in the music of the day.

First generation seldom has assimilated or fully assimilated musical taste unless they immigrated with their parents before they were about 15. The music imprinting occurs in early adolescence, and unless they come from a background where US Pop was the music of choice as an early teen, that will not be their preference later on.

I even remember some of them saying their parents were "deeply ashamed" that they were changing cultures and not following the old ways - essentially the same things we white kids heard from our parents when Rock n Roll came along.

That's a description of second, not first generation.

In the Valley we have the predominately white East Valley and largely Hispanic West Valley. In attending high school soccer games I have noticed that there is a fair mix of both cultures on both sides of the field but on the "west" side there are Mexican flags flying, salsa music playing and Spanish is the common language. They are the recent immigrants who have yet to assimilate or perhaps are just trying to make a statement about their culture.

As an aside, I doubt they played salsa. Among Mexican groups, playing salsa is the best way to get a crowd to disperse... something I used at events in East LA quite often so as to not have people around after a sunrise-to-sunset permit was about to expire.

First generation immigrants will keep their base music tastes throughout life. One does not go from liking ranchera and norteña music to liking Foo Fighters. Assimilation generally means understanding and adapting to a new cultural environment, but core tastes don't change. Look at the Italians in New York... two generations after the big pre-1920 immigrations and there were still stations all in italian (WHOM and WOV) or partly in Italian (WEVD) in the 50's.

It might have made a difference that in the old days it was assimilate or die for kids. There were no ESL classes and the child's esteem quickly came under fire if they were "different". It seems today one could choose to live in an ethnic enclave and survive nicely without any contact with the greater USA culture. It also seems radio (and to a certain extent TV) are industries making that even more possible.

I think the change is more related to a heightened sense of cultural pride. I took one of my daughters out of a school when she was punished for speaking Spanish at recess (same school where they demanded her green card as it was required since she is Puerto Rican). Today, that would not happen, and bilingualism is even encouraged in more enlightened places.

[/quote]I have two adopted daughters that came to the USA from Romania as early teens. The younger one (13) quickly became fluent in English and adopted the dress, mannerisms and music that was popular with her peers. The other (15) held on much stronger to her heritage and to this day still prefers listening to Romanian music and speaking Romanian. I suspect they are typical of immigrant people no matter where they originate. [/quote]

It sounds like one was on the preformation side of musical taste, and the other was on the fomed side. You are describing exactly what happens with Hispanics... of course, the amount of reinforcement... radio, TV, friends, etc., makes a big difference, too.

[/quote]
 
Breaking slightly away from our core topic for a minute, I've got to relate a true story about speaking non-English in school.

It was 1959, in my sophomore woodworking class. There were two people in the class who were obviously Hispanic. One was a "normal" kid but the other, Reyes, was a trouble maker. The two of them spoke Spanish to each other and the rest of us wondered what they were talking about most of the time.

Our instructor was a middle-aged white male, war veteran, kind of the normal male teacher for those days and seemingly paid no attention when Spanish flew past his ear. Reyes had a giant contempt for the instructor and didn't hide it well but the instructor paid him no heed. All year long, whenever the instructor tried to educate Reyes he got an earful in return but he never said a word.

Several days before the end of the school year we were receiving our overall grades and Reyes was obviously not pleased with his. He got more and more agitated and began shouting at the instructor in both English and Spanish. When he finally had exhausted himself the instructor replied to him in fluent Spanish - about 5 full minutes worth. I knew just enough to know it was absent of accolades and the more the instructor talked the redder Reyes got.

From that point on I suspect he always ensured his instructors were not bi-lingual. ;D It was truly something to behold.
 
radio is still *interesting*, but not broadcasting.
USA radio real estate has been reduced to 'squatting'.
the spectrum that radio inhabits is a trillion-dollar world.
soon enough, this wealth will be confiscated and redistributed.
 
turkeydance said:
radio is still *interesting*, but not broadcasting.
USA radio real estate has been reduced to 'squatting'.
the spectrum that radio inhabits is a trillion-dollar world.
soon enough, this wealth will be confiscated and redistributed.
Confiscated and redistributed? Are you predicting or do you know of a pending revolution????
 
turkeydance said:
radio is still *interesting*, but not broadcasting.
USA radio real estate has been reduced to 'squatting'.
the spectrum that radio inhabits is a trillion-dollar world.
soon enough, this wealth will be confiscated and redistributed.

Please do tell us what the value of the .54 to 1.7 mHz band is. Except for declining AM radio, the spectrum there has nearly no value.

And then that very narrow swath of real estate from 88 to 107 mHz... 9 MHZ, or the width of about 2 VHF channels. How is that worth a trillion dollars?

P.S. Any one-to-many model is "broadcasting." The term comes from the fishnet analogy of casting a net. "Broad"-casting is casting a wide net. Nothing more, nothing less.

Say "hi" to Joseph, Vladimir, Karl and Friedrich for me, please.
 
1069_KIFR said:
Confiscated and redistributed? Are you predicting or do you know of a pending revolution????

He overheard it at an Occupy Wall Street riot... er, demonstration.
 
DavidEduardo said:
P.S. Any one-to-many model is "broadcasting." The term comes from the fishnet analogy of casting a net. "Broad"-casting is casting a wide net. Nothing more, nothing less.

In my readings about Doc Herrold, it appears that his father was a farmer in the Santa Clara Valley. Herrold claimed to have invented the term "broadcasting" as applied to radio. And in fact, KCBS's claim to fame is not as the first radio station, but the first brodcasting station. He was quoted in I believe 1957 that he was doing broadcasting in much the same way that a farmer uses a seed broadcaster. Herrold's antenna designs I've seen certainly look like he took the broadcasting idea to heart given that the antennas atop the bank building in San Jose looked pretty much like the ground radials under any of today's AM antennas. They radiated in all directions from a central point. Today, of course, we don't see that as efficient, but in his days people were still experimenting with antenna designs.

I have reason to believe that Herrold's use of the term "broadcasting" was referring to the spreading of seed in every direction rather than casting a net in the water.

Here's some seed broadcasting info: http://www.antiquefarmtools.info/page3.htm

And on Herrold if people don't know who he was: http://www.charlesherrold.org/
 
DavidKaye said:
I have reason to believe that Herrold's use of the term "broadcasting" was referring to the spreading of seed in every direction rather than casting a net in the water.

The seeding comparison makes today's analogies even more to the point. Thanks for the information... I did not know that.

Another fascinating "word" study is the usage of both "web" and "net" for broadcast networks. Obviously, the "web" usage makes sense when maps of early network interconnects are inspected. "Net" likely comes from the "casting" usage.
 
turkeydance said:
radio is still *interesting*, but not broadcasting.
USA radio real estate has been reduced to 'squatting'.
the spectrum that radio inhabits is a trillion-dollar world.
soon enough, this wealth will be confiscated and redistributed.

Just remember the airwaves belong to us, the people. If they're taken over by your "gubmnt", you can be assured there will be revolution. Occupoo on that.
 
Steven Roy said:
Just remember the airwaves belong to us, the people. If they're taken over by your "gubmnt", you can be assured there will be revolution.

While there is the spirit of public ownership of the airwaves in the USA, the fact is that the government has long controlled the airwaves. Before the FCC was the FRC. Before the FRC was the Department of Commerce. Even the world's first broadcasting station, San Jose Calling (now known as KCBS) had a license. They were licensed by the Commerce Department.

The government, here, there, and everywhere, has long determined who gets licenses, what frequencies and power they use, and what they can't say on the air. Every country of the world (even Italy) licenses and controls the transmitters in their countries.
 
DavidKaye said:
While there is the spirit of public ownership of the airwaves in the USA, the fact is that the government has long controlled the airwaves. Before the FCC was the FRC. Before the FRC was the Department of Commerce. Even the world's first broadcasting station, San Jose Calling (now known as KCBS) had a license. They were licensed by the Commerce Department.

The government, here, there, and everywhere, has long determined who gets licenses, what frequencies and power they use, and what they can't say on the air. Every country of the world (even Italy) licenses and controls the transmitters in their countries.

The theme of your post is "government control". IMHO, for what little that's worth, the gov already has much too much control over radio and telelvision. The only reason for radio licenses should be to prevent interference. The limit of how much RF you radiate, staying on frequency with limited harmonics, and forcing (oops, force is control again ;) ) stations to maintain their transmitter sites and studios should be only reason for government oversight.

As you know, even what you can say on-the-air has changed. Just a few years ago, you probably wouldn't be able to say S.O.B. or a$$.
 
My critique was about the comment "Remember when radio was interesting?"

Other than mentioning that it wasn't a comment, it was a Headline, I'll let others speak for the recent 1965 Countdown replaying during ReelRadio's 16th birthday.

Just a few snippets from the Aircheck Channel (there were many)

From: Quad Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 10:13:10
There's a radio board rag called Radio-Info.-Bay Area In it
Bobby Ocean was kind enough to announce the 93 feature
coming up on Reel Radio (last week). Some creep, who
apparently is a board regular took Osh to task for it.
Unbelievable gall.

From: Uncle Ricky ([email protected]) Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 11:38:49
It's sad that some of the few people left working in radio
are not only ignorant of their history, but demonstrably
arrogant in their disdain for it. Those who appreciate the
quality and talent of original Top 40 know the difference.
We are entitled to ignore the arrogance and ignorance of
those who take it for granted.
 
skyrocker said:
My critique was about the comment "Remember when radio was interesting?"

Other than mentioning that it wasn't a comment, it was a Headline, I'll let others speak for the recent 1965 Countdown replaying during ReelRadio's 16th birthday.

Just a few snippets from the Aircheck Channel (there were many)

From: Quad Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 10:13:10
There's a radio board rag called Radio-Info.-Bay Area In it
Bobby Ocean was kind enough to announce the 93 feature
coming up on Reel Radio (last week). Some creep, who
apparently is a board regular took Osh to task for it.
Unbelievable gall.

From: Uncle Ricky ([email protected]) Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 11:38:49
It's sad that some of the few people left working in radio
are not only ignorant of their history, but demonstrably
arrogant in their disdain for it. Those who appreciate the
quality and talent of original Top 40 know the difference.
We are entitled to ignore the arrogance and ignorance of
those who take it for granted.

To Bobby Ocean, on behalf of those of us who were lucky enough to catch the countdown please accept our thanks for the super job you did on the special. The work was flawless-seamless and a welcome bit of programming for those of us who remember what radio was like, and still should be. I did not see the offending post, so I know not what was written, but it's hard to imagine anyone who is a member of the Reel radio site being so idiotic. Hard to imagine but not surprising. Go to any website where people can leave a comment and you will find petty, cruel individuals spewing hatred for no reason other than to be mean. Thanks again Bobby for your wonderful work!
 
DavidKaye said:
RadioStarOne said:
Gee David ever get the idea that not everyone agree's with your opinion on what the boomer's like when it comes to oldies radio? Skyrocker has lived through nearly a lifetime of radio history and you should show a little respect for his having been a large part of that history! Rock On Skyrocker!

Calling David Eduardo, the man with the ratings books. Oldies aren't being played much on the radio because oldies don't have listeners, even though the Bay Boom (people born between 1946 and 1964) are the dominant population. They're just not listening.

I think you have a valid point Dave. This BOOMER, probably as you, grew-up with radio that played current hits and mixed-in oldies throughout the hour. That's what I would listen to if such a station existed anymore but with voice-tracking, cheap ownership and industry-wide ignorance of how to program music, it won't happen. (Besides, who wants to hear just one type of music all day anyway?)
 
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