Removed from dying AM radio

[Avid Listener]

Many of the Haitians, particularly those allowed in as political refugees, have below Junior High School educations, and they work tedious, strenuous entry level jobs. Just exactly when are they going to spend the long hours needed to even learn the most basic English?

Perhaps they could learn by hearing lessons in English on AM radio, broadcast for the purpose of teaching them English? It doesn't take "long hours" of formal study to pick up enough English to be able to function in society outside of insular ghettos of other immigrants. It just takes exposure to hearing the common language of the new nation.

Of course, the most important thing required in learning a new language, especially for those who are seeking to live permanently in a new country, is motivation to become assimilated. The public airwaves should be used in the public interest to encourage immigrants to accept that they live in America now, and in America, we speak English. If they want to re-create the homelands they left in order to come to America as insular little ghettos that are in America, but not of America, let them return to those homelands.

Anecdotes about exceptional individuals who managed to achieve high levels of financial success by exploiting their fellow immigrants do not prove that those who come to America should strive to become assimilated Americans.

 

[davideduardo]

Perhaps they could learn by hearing lessons in English on AM radio, broadcast for the purpose of teaching them English? It doesn't take "long hours" of formal study to pick up enough English to be able to function in society outside of insular ghettos of other immigrants. It just takes exposure to hearing the common language of the new nation.

And who is going to pay for that?

It does take long hours of practice and study for an adult to learn a new language.

Of course, the most important thing required in learning a new language, especially for those who are seeking to live permanently in a new country, is motivation to become assimilated.

The motivation of the Haitians who emigrated from their country during the Duvalier reigns was to escape from the Tonton Macoute, not to assimilate into American society. Those who were not political refugees came for economic reasons... as do most immigrants. They see the opportunity in America first, then they see the advantage of having their children assimilate.

This is a perfect example of Maslow's "Hierarchy of Needs" in action.

The public airwaves should be used in the public interest to encourage immigrants to accept that they live in America now, and in America, we speak English. If they want to re-create the homelands they left in order to come to America as insular little ghettos that are in America, but not of America, let them return to those homelands.

You don't understand American history and the multigenerational process of assimilation.

Anecdotes about exceptional individuals who managed to achieve high levels of financial success by exploiting their fellow immigrants do not prove that those who come to America should strive to become assimilated Americans.

Nobody said that the person who I mentioned was exploiting anyone. In fact, he offered good jobs with benefits, good working conditions and hired as many non-immigrants as those new to the country. My point was that you are wrong when you say that success comes only with learning English.

 

[FredLeonard]

The point is foreign language radio has become a crutch for immigrants to avoid learning English, and to avoid assimilation. Once upon a time, immigrants wanted to learn English and to become "Americans." Even more, they wanted their kids to learn English. Maybe those immigrants never learned grammatically-perfect, accent-free English but they learned how to read and write English and how to make themselves understood speaking English and to understand English. Of course, back then, immigration was a life-time decision - no going back. Today many immigrants come and go and maintain dual citizenship (it used to be naturalized citizens had to renounce their previous citizenship). So, learning the language did not seem such an imposition.

 

[Avid Listener]

The point is foreign language radio has become a crutch for immigrants to avoid learning English, and to avoid assimilation. Once upon a time, immigrants wanted to learn English and to become "Americans." Even more, they wanted their kids to learn English. Maybe those immigrants never learned grammatically-perfect, accent-free English but they learned how to read and write English and how to make themselves understood speaking English and to understand English. Of course, back then, immigration was a life-time decision - no going back. Today many immigrants come and go and maintain dual citizenship (it used to be naturalized citizens had to renounce their previous citizenship). So, learning the language did not seem such an imposition.

That is all correct, but it leaves out another truth that few people want to face. Regardless of why immigrants want to enter the United States, it's our country. All sovereign nations determine their own policies for immigration. Far more important than what individual immigrants might want themselves is what the nation they are entering expects of them. Just because some immigrant says, "You have a lot and I want some so I'm going to move in and take it but I'm not going to learn your language, customs, or culture though maybe my kids will" doesn't mean that's what has to happen. The sovereign nation is within its right to say, "Sorry pal, but that's not going to happen. We'll let you in, but you either learn our language and honor our customs and culture or you get sent back home."

In the context of this thread, since the AM band is part of the public airwaves, owned collectively by the nation, it is the citizens of the nation, through government they elect, who determines how those airwaves should be used. Any discussion of what the government will do is therefore based on a discussion by the citizens of what the government should do.

If they only thing keeping AM radio alive is pandering to immigrant groups who cannot (or will not) speak English, then the terms of the licenses that already say that the stations must operate in the public interest must spell out what that interest is. A federally licensed AM radio station that narrowcasts to a particular community of immigrants should have a clause in their license that requires a certain amount of programming designed to educate the immigrants on American customs and culture, including the English language. If the broadcaster is unwilling or unable to abide by those terms, he can surrender his license or sell it to someone who will abide by the terms. As to who should pay for it, let those who defend immigrant communities dig into their own pockets and put their money where their mouth is. If there are so many successful immigrants who never bothered to learn English, let them provide the funding as a token of gratitude to the nation where they became rich.

 

[JeffM]

Dontcha just love how knee-jerk conservatives like Fred and Avid always have a snap answer for everything; usually one designed to be painful for everyone but themselves?

 

[joebtsflk1]

OK, can somebody declare this thread officially dead?

 

[TheBigA]

The point is foreign language radio has become a crutch for immigrants to avoid learning English, and to avoid assimilation. Once upon a time, immigrants wanted to learn English and to become "Americans." Even more, they wanted their kids to learn English.

Not true. In my experience, immigrants wanted their children to retain the language and culture from their ancestors. They wanted their children to attend a church where the home religion was spoken. That's why so many of our church services today are done in foreign languages. The Constitution guarantees us freedom of religion, and that means to worship in the language we choose. It's not radio, but church that allows immigrants to avoid assimilation, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. The American tradition, dating back to the first immigrants in 1620, was to retain the language, religion, culture, and tradition of the homeland. In truth, there is no American culture, but multiple cultures from the various countries where immigrants came. The Constitution and Declaration of Independence were both written from this point of view and this experience. The founding fathers didn't want a culture, religion, or even a language forced on them. That's why they worded their documents the way they did.

 

[Ravens]

conservatives like Fred

Just thought I'd isolate that for the comedy factor.

 

[davideduardo]

rt of music you can play on your station.

And finally, there's the practical matter of it: do we really think that if the U.S. somehow created an English-only rule for radio stations that immediately all the millions of people here who speak different languages would suddenly be speaking English? I really doubt it. And I don't think an AM station broadcasting in Punjabi or Viet or Spanish is enabling people to stay away from learning English.

Good point, boombox.

One of the principal reasons a person listens to radio in Hindi or Spanish or Korean or whatever is to hear the music the like which is not played on English language stations. Since music tastes are formed in early adolescence, and are totally independent of language skills, this is the only way a person can enjoy their own music.

A person from Colombia who grew up liking cumbia and vallenato music is not going to start liking American Alternative Rock or Country no matter how good their English becomes over the years.

 

[davideduardo]

If they only thing keeping AM radio alive is pandering to immigrant groups who cannot (or will not) speak English, then the terms of the licenses that already say that the stations must operate in the public interest must spell out what that interest is. A federally licensed AM radio station that narrowcasts to a particular community of immigrants should have a clause in their license that requires a certain amount of programming designed to educate the immigrants on American customs and culture, including the English language. If the broadcaster is unwilling or unable to abide by those terms, he can surrender his license or sell it to someone who will abide by the terms. As to who should pay for it, let those who defend immigrant communities dig into their own pockets and put their money where their mouth is. If there are so many successful immigrants who never bothered to learn English, let them provide the funding as a token of gratitude to the nation where they became rich.

Since most non-English language stations dedicate most if not all of their programming to music, we should look at the other side of this coin before saying that immigrants would learn English faster or better if they listened to English language stations.

Throughout the world, there are thousands of stations that play US and English language pop, AC and rock music, many of them exclusively.

At one time, of 21 FMs in Lima, Perú, 18 played only English language music. There are such stations from Argentina to Mexico and from Panamá to Puerto Rico. I have owned, managed or programmed dozens of such stations, so I can tell you a fact about the audiences: they don't learn more than a handful of words from the songs. The language is unimportant, and music is not a language learning tool in these cases.

However, the listeners to those English language music stations are often the least likely to migrate to the USA. That's because their tastes are decidedly middle and upper class, and those are not the people who generally migrate, save cases like Cuba and, now, Venezuela. The middle and upper class is often far better off anywhere in Latin America than they would be in the US.

Immigrants from Latin America are generally the economically disadvantaged, and they are looking for a brighter future for their families. The arrive with musical tastes that range from Vallenato to Cumbia to Salsa to Norteña and Banda music. They are not going to listen to AC/DC or Katy Perry or Florida Georgia Line. Ever.

Whether these folks learn English or not is irrelevant to music radio. A large portion of Latin American immigrants will never like any genre or form of "American" music, even if they become 100% bilingual. Stations that broadcast the music they like serve those listeners who will never be otherwise served and they serve the businesses in America that wish to reach these new consumers.

Nobody loses here.

 

[landtuna]

The people who speak other languages still have real lives to deal with, a life that includes interacting not only with English speakers, but speakers of other foreign languages --and in such environments (usually the workplace), English is still the language they all know in common (even if it's broken English).

You make an excellent point Box. We adopted two Romanian sisters when they were of high school age. Because they felt more at home with other foreign students the groups assembling in our living room were a smattering of 20 different cultures and languages. The only language most had in common was English and they weren't afraid to use it even though most were just learning and had accents that Boris Karlov would have envied.

 

[Avid Listener]

I am having trouble figuring out whether you want to talk radio, or talk politics.(***) How nations work, and what are the ground rules is very fluid. But you speak of nations, immigration and legal precedent as though the values and concepts are fixed and ageless.

To refresh your memory, this is the launch post. Note what I have highlighted.

AM radio is approaching the graveyard. HD AM won't help.

other nations are moving AM station to FM it seems.
When will the USA do it ?

The anonymous launcher of this thread is asking about when the US government will move the surviving AM stations to FM. That is a political question. If the board moderators didn't want a thread about the politics involved in government decisions about licensing radio, they wouldn't have approved the lurker's launch post. Since they approved the launch post, they are clearly not opposed to a discussion of the political ramifications of licensing AM radio stations.

As for any values being ""fixed and ageless", the only one I've suggested is "fixed and ageless" is the one that any sovereign nation has the right to determine its policy regarding immigration, and to change it if it chooses.

OK, can somebody declare this thread officially dead?

How about declaring joebtsflk1 dead.

Not true. In my experience, immigrants wanted their children to retain the language and culture from their ancestors.

So? This isn't about what people moving to America want. It's about what American citizens expect immigrants to do in order to be permitted to enter and remain in this country. If immigrants really want their children to retain the language and culture of their ancestors, they can remain in their ancestral homelands. No one is forcing anyone to come to the US.

Talk about a non-sequitur!

In point of fact, right now one of the few things keeping AM radio alive is conservative talk radio. If we are to use your POV as a guide, perhaps it is in the public interest to require conservative radio stations to offer competing points of view. Federally licensed AM radio stations that narrowcast to a particular ideology should have a clause in their license that requires them to provide other points of view. How would you feel about that?

I'm not a liberal. I don't base my actions and reactions on how I feel, I base it on what I think.

And what I think is that if American citizens want to talk about American politics in English, then let the government try to stop them.

And finally, there's the practical matter of it: do we really think that if the U.S. somehow created an English-only rule for radio stations that immediately all the millions of people here who speak different languages would suddenly be speaking English? I really doubt it. And I don't think an AM station broadcasting in Punjabi or Viet or Spanish is enabling people to stay away from learning English.

No one is suggesting an "English Only" rule. We're just saying that a primary goal of any station that targets non-English speaking foreigners should include a significant amount of content designed to help those immigrants learn English.

 

[JeffM]

Originally posted by JeffM:
conservatives like Fred

Just thought I'd isolate that for the comedy factor.

Fred believes minorities and women no longer "know their place," rails against non-English-speakers and "Feminazis," and longs for an Amurrica more like the early 50's. Despite the FakeLiberal front he hides behind, if that's not the view of a Rushbo conservative, then what is??

 

[K.M. Richards]

In point of fact, right now one of the few things keeping AM radio alive is conservative talk radio. If we are to use your POV as a guide, perhaps it is in the public interest to require conservative radio stations to offer competing points of view. Federally licensed AM radio stations that narrowcast to a particular ideology should have a clause in their license that requires them to provide other points of view. How would you feel about that?

We used to have that. It was called the fairness doctrine. And it got tossed out by a conservative Congress -- supported by one of the most conservative Presidents in our history, Ronald Reagan --that wanted outlets for its own views without having to give equal time to opposing ones.

Personally, I'd like to see that back.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

The anonymous launcher of this thread is asking about when the US government will move the surviving AM stations to FM. That is a political question.

Moving AM licensees to an FM frequency is an ENGINEERING issue, and ECONOMICS issue, a GEOGRAPHY issue, a CULTURAL issue. It would take action, permission, support from the political process to make it possible, but it would be done or not done because the engineering would work, the money would work, the geographical local would work, and the culture of the community would embrace the move.

If immigrants really want their children to retain the language and culture of their ancestors, they can remain in their ancestral homelands. No one is forcing anyone to come to the US.

The argument can be made that in some cases people are being forced to leave their ancestral homeland and we can make the case that there are times when they are doing that because the U.S. made it impossible for them to remain in their homeland. As Mr. Rogers used to say: "Boys and Girls, can you say the words BANANA REPUBLIC?"

American consumers of drugs and pot have made some Latin American communities an unsafe place to live.

Many Vietnamese apparently had the choice to flee or die.

I'm not a liberal. I don't base my actions and reactions on how I feel, I base it on what I think.

Give me the referee's whistle. I'm calling FOUL on that one and ask the MODERATOR to think it over and give us some guidance.

There are some liberals who think, and some who feel.
There are some conservatives who think, and some who feel.

Actually both groups have some OUTSTANDING thinkers, and both groups have some OBSCENE "feelers".

This one may get me in trouble but it is so on-point about how ridiculous your feel-and-think mentality is.

In the Old South of years ago, Everyone knew that Whites were smart and Blacks were dumb.
Along the Texas border where I grew up, conventional wisdom was Whites are industrious and Latinos are lazy.
Conventinal wisdom of the old days declared the The French were "dirty".

Your "I think... thus I am a Conservative and that makes me superior to any Liberal" needs to die along all the other stereotypes I just listed in a very 'politically incorrect' way of putting it.

AM radio will die... if and when it just becomes impossible to gather an audience that has any reasonable economic value to any one in the community.

I have some better targets that need to be made "more American" and more useful to our society.

Start with the Internet. Get your congressman to sponsor a bill that shoves "enlightenment of immigrants" down the throat of the Internet operators.

Move on to the automobile industry. Make it illegal to sell any style of car that that is popular with immigrants and causes them to feel like they are carrying on their ancestry by buying the car style they would own if they still lived in the homeland.

One more target for you: You need to start a movement that outlaws any smart phone APPS that help people remember their ancestry. They should ONLY use APPS that we know are good and proper for home grown Americans.

Bellyaching about AM radio is such small potatoes compared to these other issues that AM radio doesn't deserve the time of day from a smart thinker like you, my friend.

Now, those of us who just FEEL good remember how warm and wonderful AM radio made us feel in our youth will fill the space you may choose to leave vacant in this thread. Maybe we can be very liberal in spreading our feeling around.

 

[Ravens]

Fred believes minorities and women no longer "know their place," rails against non-English-speakers and "Feminazis," and longs for an Amurrica more like the early 50's. Despite the FakeLiberal front he hides behind, if that's not the view of a Rushbo conservative, then what is??

It's an old school LBJ liberal racist.

 

[mimo]

I'm assuming that you already spoke both French and English? Learning additional languages is considered much easier for bilinguals than for monolinguals once in adulthood. One of my daughters, who was a polygolot (English Spanish and Portuguese) had no difficulty picking up French when she got accepted in a post graduate course in Paris, and then acquired German and Italian under similar circumstances... all when she was over 20.

I was English only. I could barely mutter more than a Bonjour or Au Revoir..and in a strong Canadian accent. I still don't speak more than maybe 10 words in French.

I was at a restaurant on Friday night owned by a gentleman from Acapulco who couldn't believe my quality of Spanish. He actually asked "how do you speak it so well if you're not Mexican?" It's not 100% perfect but I'm more than functional in Spanish. The words I don't know are words I don't often use in English.

I remember a lot of the programming you did with WIND hosted by the brilliant and talented Luisa Torres. One listener was so convinced that she didn't need to speak English, and said "I can speak it, but I choose not to, because I don't need it and even Challenged Luisa's command of the English language. Luisa challenged her and said (In perfect English) "Ok lets have a conversation in English right now, right here on the radio. The woman couldn't even get more than a couple of mis pronounced words out. Luisa then in English explained to her why she would never overcome the obstacles she would face unless she changed her attitude and concluded with "Since you couldn't handle a simple conversation, I believe I have a better command over the English language than you do." I remember the shows with doctors and other professionals. These stations do a real public service. They help with tax information during tax time and explain it in a way these newcomers really need and can understand. They also provide more in depth info for those who have been here for years, but are more comfortable in their native tongue, even if they are completely bilingual. While I was not interested in the financial stuff, I appreciated the purpose of the programming, as it was very important. It did help me learn a few words, but even in English I tend to tune out that kind of programming.

 

[davideduardo]

I remember a lot of the programming you did with WIND...

You will enjoy an anecdote from our KTNQ in LA which set the tone for all of HBC's other talk stations.

In around 1997 when there were many demonstrations in the aftermath of Proposition 187 in California, our Amalia González noticed that in many of them the demonstrators were carrying Mexican flags as well as flags of several Central American countries. She said that this was the wrong thing to do and asked, "If a bunch of North Americans marched on the town square in Oaxaca or Puebla or Chilpancingo carrying American flags, they would be beaten up or stoned for the lack of respect and offense to Mexico. Then why do those of you who carry Mexican flags in Los Angeles think it is alright to do the same here?"

The criticisms were loud and angry, but the phones were 90% in favor of not protesting in the US by carrying foreign flags.

Those who think that Spanish language radio is one-sided are very wrong.

 

[TheBigA]

It did help me learn a few words, but even in English I tend to tune out that kind of programming.

That's an important point. I've had this conversation a lot in the non-commercial world. They think that because you do "educational" things on the radio, people will listen and learn. The fact is they won't. They'll tune out, or worse, turn off. It's the same lesson we learned with "public service programming." Any time you do what you think is right, the listeners revolt, and do what they want. Given the problems AM radio has now, it can't afford to turn off listeners.

 

[davideduardo]

So? This isn't about what people moving to America want. It's about what American citizens expect immigrants to do in order to be permitted to enter and remain in this country. If immigrants really want their children to retain the language and culture of their ancestors, they can remain in their ancestral homelands. No one is forcing anyone to come to the US.

There is nothing wrong with retaining the language and elements of another culture while assimilating over several generations. By making the above statement, you are saying that being bilingual is wrong. In fact, it is a mind-expanding thing, opening up people to different perspectives and different cultures, answering in some small way the "why can't we get along?" question.

No one is suggesting an "English Only" rule. We're just saying that a primary goal of any station that targets non-English speaking foreigners should include a significant amount of content designed to help those immigrants learn English.

Think abut the 1 to 12 grades of primary and secondary education... a person in first grade can't do 4th grade work. Similarly, a radio station can not possibly deal with different proficiency levels of different groups of immigrants, even if there were 100 hours in a day.

Of course, nobody would listen, anyway. That's just not something people do via radio any more (if they even ever did).

You really ought to think your ideas through before insisting we blindly adopt them.