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nightfly61
Guest
Maybe that explains why they didn't bother to add the "Hit Predictor" to the site when they re-vamped it a while back.
What are we supposed to do now??? :'(
What are we supposed to do now??? :'(
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Timeline Clarification: RIP R&R
I remember that cover! It was sensational and sensationalized. Made all kinds of waves. But (until more recently), R&R was always a bastion of male piggery; the business itself was 99% male (at least in programming), so that was to be expected.
To clear up the timeline: R&R "owned" the radio-programming market almost from the first issue in '73 and on into the late '80s - early '90s. Bob Wilson and his partners knew all the players and the newspaper took off from day one. They saw a need and filled it - really well.
Billboard has always been more of a retail/rack book; R&R was addressed to and super served the programming people. You established your rep as a reporter. Moved up a few markets maybe because Lander gave you a positive mention in ST. You'd repay him by insisting they subscribe at any station where you arrived that was not already a subscriber. You bought your stickers from CGI or US Tape (out of thousands of other printers); your syndication from ABC, felt warm about Arbitron, played the new Rare Earth, gave away "Blue Velvet" tapes - because they advertised in your newspaper.
Plus R&R served all formats and created a few. Top-40 became dated and was transformed into CHR; AOR was split into the several formats it's become.
Back in those days we moved around so much we needed a way to keep up with one another; remember - no internet nor cell phones back then - and long distance cost real $. My first cell phone was shoebox size and mounted in the car because of the juice needed. That wasn't until about 1985.
As others have pointed out, R&R was the place to go looking for a new gig; or to find out who got the one you'd wanted. "Pros on the Loose" and the classifieds was probably responsible for more hirings than any other single source during the first 15-20 years.
Wilson kept high profile names on the masthead. When one of the big names would get fired, Bob would hire him until he went back into the station side. Younger jox idolized these guys and traded airchecks like baseball cards. Several of them decided to stay a while. The money was good, the recognition was mind boggling, it was LA in the '70s and '80s and offered a lot more security than radio. Once the conventions started... well let's just say it was hard work, but the nightly payoff was worth it.
Joel Denver is an example. He was a great MD/PD, then really built his image as the Top-40/Street Talk guy at R&R until founding his own very successful internet-based trade. The first, as I recall.
So, though Billboard and Cashbox held down the retail front, BB got the radio programmers by default. But by 1975 they were essentially a non-entity for radio music decisions in the most important markets. R&R got their information from the stations through a brilliant move by Wilson who set up a series of "reporters" by market size and format. BB got the info from sales which could be manipulated.
Consequently R&R owned radio programming at least through the early '90s. They also had a lot of loyalty from salespeople who had started in the programming ranks. Broadcasting had the managers until "The Pulse" (quickly renamed to "Radio Ink") was bought by Eric Rhoads, upgraded and presented to prospective advertisers as a management alternative to R&R. That was in '88-'89.
This post is getting a bit long and frankly I'm surprised a lot of us have enough brain cells left to remember any of it. I lived through this as an MD/PD/GM, then eventually an R&R employee under both Case and Wilson. A lot of the previous posters are correct about their recollections of the first years - the differing opinions are in the demos and time periods.
Among the majors (no offense to former Gavin, FMQB, Rudman or other sheets - some of which were, and/or still are, very successful):
Music: BB for retail, R&R for radio launched in '73 and had solidified from around '75 until early '90s;
Radio Programming: R&R from '73 into early '90s - hands down No.1;
Radio Management: Broadcasting (until they dropped radio), Inside Radio, RBR until 1990-'91, then Radio Ink (though Inside Radio and RBR remain strong);
Since then all hell's broken loose with the net, Telecom act and ownership changes at the station and trade-sheet level. Some of the newer names include the trade you're looking at now: Tom has done a great job and his new hires will make a big difference. Bill Hennes who started AllAboutCountry ten years ago; R&R alum Lon Helton's CountryAircheckToday.com; Jerry DelColliano, once owner of Inside Radio and bitter enemy to all the R&R folks, who with his InsideMusicMedia.com shows he's not lost the fire, but is more mellow personally and, as is often the case, has become a friend... and several others. You can't open your inbox anymore without bumping into a new radio rag.
Forgive me if I've left anyone out, screwed up a date or if you just plain don't agree (that's ok, too) - blame it on the brain cells.
Here's a toast to a fine publication and its people... and a tear for a business I loved. Both will be sorely missed.
I remember that cover! It was sensational and sensationalized. Made all kinds of waves. But (until more recently), R&R was always a bastion of male piggery; the business itself was 99% male (at least in programming), so that was to be expected.
To clear up the timeline: R&R "owned" the radio-programming market almost from the first issue in '73 and on into the late '80s - early '90s. Bob Wilson and his partners knew all the players and the newspaper took off from day one. They saw a need and filled it - really well.
Billboard has always been more of a retail/rack book; R&R was addressed to and super served the programming people. You established your rep as a reporter. Moved up a few markets maybe because Lander gave you a positive mention in ST. You'd repay him by insisting they subscribe at any station where you arrived that was not already a subscriber. You bought your stickers from CGI or US Tape (out of thousands of other printers); your syndication from ABC, felt warm about Arbitron, played the new Rare Earth, gave away "Blue Velvet" tapes - because they advertised in your newspaper.
Plus R&R served all formats and created a few. Top-40 became dated and was transformed into CHR; AOR was split into the several formats it's become.
Back in those days we moved around so much we needed a way to keep up with one another; remember - no internet nor cell phones back then - and long distance cost real $. My first cell phone was shoebox size and mounted in the car because of the juice needed. That wasn't until about 1985.
As others have pointed out, R&R was the place to go looking for a new gig; or to find out who got the one you'd wanted. "Pros on the Loose" and the classifieds was probably responsible for more hirings than any other single source during the first 15-20 years.
Wilson kept high profile names on the masthead. When one of the big names would get fired, Bob would hire him until he went back into the station side. Younger jox idolized these guys and traded airchecks like baseball cards. Several of them decided to stay a while. The money was good, the recognition was mind boggling, it was LA in the '70s and '80s and offered a lot more security than radio. Once the conventions started... well let's just say it was hard work, but the nightly payoff was worth it.
Joel Denver is an example. He was a great MD/PD, then really built his image as the Top-40/Street Talk guy at R&R until founding his own very successful internet-based trade. The first, as I recall.
So, though Billboard and Cashbox held down the retail front, BB got the radio programmers by default. But by 1975 they were essentially a non-entity for radio music decisions in the most important markets. R&R got their information from the stations through a brilliant move by Wilson who set up a series of "reporters" by market size and format. BB got the info from sales which could be manipulated.
Consequently R&R owned radio programming at least through the early '90s. They also had a lot of loyalty from salespeople who had started in the programming ranks. Broadcasting had the managers until "The Pulse" (quickly renamed to "Radio Ink") was bought by Eric Rhoads, upgraded and presented to prospective advertisers as a management alternative to R&R. That was in '88-'89.
This post is getting a bit long and frankly I'm surprised a lot of us have enough brain cells left to remember any of it. I lived through this as an MD/PD/GM, then eventually an R&R employee under both Case and Wilson. A lot of the previous posters are correct about their recollections of the first years - the differing opinions are in the demos and time periods.
Among the majors (no offense to former Gavin, FMQB, Rudman or other sheets - some of which were, and/or still are, very successful):
Music: BB for retail, R&R for radio launched in '73 and had solidified from around '75 until early '90s;
Radio Programming: R&R from '73 into early '90s - hands down No.1;
Radio Management: Broadcasting (until they dropped radio), Inside Radio, RBR until 1990-'91, then Radio Ink (though Inside Radio and RBR remain strong);
Since then all hell's broken loose with the net, Telecom act and ownership changes at the station and trade-sheet level. Some of the newer names include the trade you're looking at now: Tom has done a great job and his new hires will make a big difference. Bill Hennes who started AllAboutCountry ten years ago; R&R alum Lon Helton's CountryAircheckToday.com; Jerry DelColliano, once owner of Inside Radio and bitter enemy to all the R&R folks, who with his InsideMusicMedia.com shows he's not lost the fire, but is more mellow personally and, as is often the case, has become a friend... and several others. You can't open your inbox anymore without bumping into a new radio rag.
Forgive me if I've left anyone out, screwed up a date or if you just plain don't agree (that's ok, too) - blame it on the brain cells.
Here's a toast to a fine publication and its people... and a tear for a business I loved. Both will be sorely missed.
M
marker101
Guest
What other website has Top 40 charts for multiple genres and individual station charts like R&R did? Billboard is cool, but I'm not subscribing to their magazine (or any other subscription based site) in order to access it. (I know, but I just look at trends).
I am hoping that some of the companies watching this blog would take an interest of buying Radio and Records and re-vamp it like Clear Channel did before they sold it to Billboard.
As others have mentioned, you had to love the job leads that were in R&R in the 70s and 80s. Putting your own ad in was a riot as well, you heard from some of the most out of the way radio stations in the US. I remember a couple of regulars...Thermopolis WY (where apparently it was quite the Unabomber existence) and Hobbs NM.
R&R was as much a part of radio when I got in as listening to a reel to reel dub of "Nine" or "There Buddy", or lifting cuts from the LA Air Force discs.
R&R was as much a part of radio when I got in as listening to a reel to reel dub of "Nine" or "There Buddy", or lifting cuts from the LA Air Force discs.
N
nightfly61
Guest
To Numjock:NamJock said:
It wasn't intended as a question, just moreso complaining that it's dead...and no, there are no free sites out there as handy as radioandrecords.com was.
Well, there's a story behind my preudonym, but It's NamJock (with an "a" - but that's ok, at my age they're pretty numb sometimes). And Handy-Dandy. Look harder.
My advice to you after being in the biz for 40 years is - pay for it, if you have to have it! You think we do this stuff and support our families by giving out free info and advice? If you needed new headsets, would you try to find them free on the internet? Or would you invest in furthering your career.
Maybe it was too much free information that did in R&R. And there's a few other friends of mine in the biz who seem to be giving it away until the doors close.
Use your brain. There are plenty of sources for you to find what others are thinking about current music - Yahoo? And have some trust in your own ears - or get out of the business if you must be led around on a leash. Do you think we had these online charts in the '60s and early '70s? We had ears, a phone, friends and Billboard.
Yet we managed to field some pretty righteous stations. Slack away bud, slack away.
My advice to you after being in the biz for 40 years is - pay for it, if you have to have it! You think we do this stuff and support our families by giving out free info and advice? If you needed new headsets, would you try to find them free on the internet? Or would you invest in furthering your career.
Maybe it was too much free information that did in R&R. And there's a few other friends of mine in the biz who seem to be giving it away until the doors close.
Use your brain. There are plenty of sources for you to find what others are thinking about current music - Yahoo? And have some trust in your own ears - or get out of the business if you must be led around on a leash. Do you think we had these online charts in the '60s and early '70s? We had ears, a phone, friends and Billboard.
Yet we managed to field some pretty righteous stations. Slack away bud, slack away.
S
searadiofreak
Guest
I see both of your points. However, it must be said that Mediabase provides excellent information on "real airplay" around the country. As I mentioned in a previous post, the ability to access a select panel is unmatched. Why is this important? Because you can study radio stations that actually do research. Because you can compare markets that are similar to yours. Because these numbers do not lie, there is no hype, it is real. Yes, you may have to barter for mediabase, but so be it. It is a killer resource. Mediabase killed the radio (and records) star.
N
nightfly61
Guest
Jeesh dude, you don't have to be a snobby old know it all about it! I'm familiar with plenty of sites but none as handy as R&R were...and if you think I'd put a penny into corporate radio's pocket you must be numb. With a disposition like that I think it's time someone should retire or get out of "the biz".NamJock said:
Nightfly, I strongly encourage you to listen to these "old farts". They've seen this industry change for good and for bad. Based on your questions it's easy to see that your knowledge of radio just simply doesnt compare to theirs, nor is your passion as serious as theirs.
These guys are the real pros and heroes of this industry, and here you are trying to blow them off, all b/c they called you out on your comments and remarks.
It's b/c of people like you that Radio & Records ultimately had to shut down (or at least part of the reason). If you really wish to seek the info you wanted you should either do a better job of finding it online, or if it mattered enough to you then you'd PAY for it. But don't go around telling us how you don't want to support corporate radio - that's just a lame excuse for you not having the money, or the will to actually use it towards finding the information you supposedly seek.
These guys are the real pros and heroes of this industry, and here you are trying to blow them off, all b/c they called you out on your comments and remarks.
It's b/c of people like you that Radio & Records ultimately had to shut down (or at least part of the reason). If you really wish to seek the info you wanted you should either do a better job of finding it online, or if it mattered enough to you then you'd PAY for it. But don't go around telling us how you don't want to support corporate radio - that's just a lame excuse for you not having the money, or the will to actually use it towards finding the information you supposedly seek.
Well, thank you CHRles. Couldn't have said it better myself. Well this news cycle is definitely over, so it appears I may have the last word, but there's not much more to say and my hearing aid needs a new battery. So, once again R.I.P. R&R, my original source, stomping grounds and where I made some of the best friends I've ever had (or will have).
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W
WYDE
Guest
Hey folks,
With the demise of R&R, does anyone know of another solid resource for recent arbitron numbers? AllAccess will provide a shallow list of some market's ratings, but I was a huge fan of how R&R did it on their website..
If I missed the answer to this in a previous post, sorry.
NamJock, I'm afraid I got in the way of your last word on this thread! Hopefully, I'll cushion the blow by telling you that I've admired your posts
Thanks!
With the demise of R&R, does anyone know of another solid resource for recent arbitron numbers? AllAccess will provide a shallow list of some market's ratings, but I was a huge fan of how R&R did it on their website..
If I missed the answer to this in a previous post, sorry.
NamJock, I'm afraid I got in the way of your last word on this thread! Hopefully, I'll cushion the blow by telling you that I've admired your posts
Thanks!
WYDE: Click "ratings" at the top of this page.
As I've been doing my research about R&R and its demise, the last thing I wanted to do was get nostalgic. In this world of incessant change, I hate reading people of any age walking through the park and reminiscing assaulting others with doomsday predictions of things ain't like they used to be. On to different things, whether or not different means better.
Nevertheless, I saw something really interesting I wish more effort was given towards preserving in radio today. It seems so many things have become needlessly adversarial. When looking at the start of R&R, I saw somebody involved with its start at about the time I barely even knew what radio was. In '73 Eric Rhoads of Radio Ink involved in creating the radio station Y-100 WHYI in Miami saw R&R for the first time and thought of it as a great trade publication.
I was thinking what was I doing at the time when my age was single digits. I remember DJ Bill Tanner of Tanner in the Morning and the way he brought in artists to speak about their songs and albums. Then they'd always do something special of rewording a hit in terms of Y-100.
One that sticks out for me a lot is this song I've loved about getting through tough times. Tanner had Christopher Cross in the studio who was doing phenomenal with "Ride Like the Wind." He sang it and reworded it with something like, "Your body's weak. You've got to rise, with Tanner in the morning to be free again, on Y-100."
That was really a great combination, the artist supporting the station and the station supporting the artist. Even if it was partially orchestrated behind the scenes, it at least still seemed genuine. You could feel real emotion between the songmaker and song player. Nowadays, it we may have all these media that can be integrated, yet everybody is fighting everybody. It's all become chop everybody else down lest ye be chopped.
Competition is one thing. Yes, compete against other stations so yours stands out above others.
Competition, however, to the point of destroying a medium that can help you in return? Sorry, that's ultimately what creatives call "self-loathing." I can't go for that.
I'm hoping that amidst all this 2009 chaos that people can launch something like an R&R, in print, online, or both that restores some of that emotion between music and radio. It can be done without getting emotional.
If you need a title, how about Ride & Rise?
Nevertheless, I saw something really interesting I wish more effort was given towards preserving in radio today. It seems so many things have become needlessly adversarial. When looking at the start of R&R, I saw somebody involved with its start at about the time I barely even knew what radio was. In '73 Eric Rhoads of Radio Ink involved in creating the radio station Y-100 WHYI in Miami saw R&R for the first time and thought of it as a great trade publication.
I was thinking what was I doing at the time when my age was single digits. I remember DJ Bill Tanner of Tanner in the Morning and the way he brought in artists to speak about their songs and albums. Then they'd always do something special of rewording a hit in terms of Y-100.
One that sticks out for me a lot is this song I've loved about getting through tough times. Tanner had Christopher Cross in the studio who was doing phenomenal with "Ride Like the Wind." He sang it and reworded it with something like, "Your body's weak. You've got to rise, with Tanner in the morning to be free again, on Y-100."
That was really a great combination, the artist supporting the station and the station supporting the artist. Even if it was partially orchestrated behind the scenes, it at least still seemed genuine. You could feel real emotion between the songmaker and song player. Nowadays, it we may have all these media that can be integrated, yet everybody is fighting everybody. It's all become chop everybody else down lest ye be chopped.
Competition is one thing. Yes, compete against other stations so yours stands out above others.
Competition, however, to the point of destroying a medium that can help you in return? Sorry, that's ultimately what creatives call "self-loathing." I can't go for that.
I'm hoping that amidst all this 2009 chaos that people can launch something like an R&R, in print, online, or both that restores some of that emotion between music and radio. It can be done without getting emotional.
If you need a title, how about Ride & Rise?
Jay F said:
It depends on what you mean by competition. If you compare the ratings in a city now vs. 20 years ago, today a tenth of a point separates the stations in the Top 10. In the old days, you have a few stations in double-digits, and a lot of stations in the basement. In the old days, you'd have several stations in the same format. Today, it's harder to do that and win. Instead you have the talk station competing against the country station for #1. The competition is still very tough, especially among big players, plus you're competing against lots of other media. So it's a different form of competition, and still very tough. I don't think radio, by itself, can compete in the way it used to, before cable, the internet, and everything else. United, radio will stand. Divided, it will fall.
A
aunti-terrestrial
Guest
TheBigA said:
Before anyone gets carried away, this IS a thread about the demise of a specific trade publication, Radio and Records.
N
nightfly61
Guest
Please :
It took a few days, but Nielsen/Billboard has finally acknowledged the death of R&R:
Both the Radio and Records link (still on the Billboard site) and the former R&R URL go to a message from Nielsen SVP Gerry Byrne:
http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/radioandrecords.html
Both the Radio and Records link (still on the Billboard site) and the former R&R URL go to a message from Nielsen SVP Gerry Byrne:
http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/radioandrecords.html
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