No. WFDF (woof doof) is licensed to Farm. Hills.. Even if it were still licensed to Flint, it wouldn't matter.
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There are a couple of points that I want to point out and clear up about the WFDF facility.
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3) Wikipedia states that there was no way to get a predicted M-3 NIF groundwave over Flint, even with 50 kW. This is also untrue. With higher towers or more towers with 50 kW, the NIF contour could most certainly have reached the far corner of Flint. The NIF has actually decreased from a rounded 5.8 mV/m to 5.7 mV/m since the installation. This represents only a 15% efficiency increase in the day IDF in that direction, well within possibility with higher towers or more towers. The reason why it couldn't practically reach that efficiency has more to do with WSUI's challenge and the vacant allotment in Lindsay, Ontario. When WYLL inceased to 50 kW night, they upgraded a station WHBY Kimberly, Wisconsin to 25 kW night on 1150, and changed a vacant Thunder Bay allotment from 1160 to another frequency. When there's a WYLL, there's a way.
I was the one who made that Wikipedia edit - and, for the most part, I still stand by it. Taller towers would have been difficult as their TL is in the flight path of aircraft departing from (and, on rare occasion, arriving at) DTW. More towers would have meant an even larger array (a dinosaur as it is with eight towers), and there is the fact that the FCC would not allow 50 kW night into an array with a "perfect zero" in the direction of WSUI, even if they could prove they could make it work (just as WDTW could not run 50 kW with WIBA in the picture). It is my understanding that the 50 kW day pattern just barely skirts the NW corner of Flint with 5.0 mV/m - and you and I both know that it doesn't actually do that as North Oakland does not have the 8 μS/m conductivity shown on the M-3 maps.
Nevertheless, your point is well taken and I'm changing the Wikipedia edit.
I was the one who made that Wikipedia edit - and, for the most part, I still stand by it. Taller towers would have been difficult as their TL is in the flight path of aircraft departing from (and, on rare occasion, arriving at) DTW. More towers would have meant an even larger array (a dinosaur as it is with eight towers), and there is the fact that the FCC would not allow 50 kW night into an array with a "perfect zero" in the direction of WSUI, even if they could prove they could make it work (just as WDTW could not run 50 kW with WIBA in the picture). It is my understanding that the 50 kW day pattern just barely skirts the NW corner of Flint with 5.0 mV/m - and you and I both know that it doesn't actually do that as North Oakland does not have the 8 μS/m conductivity shown on the M-3 maps.
Nevertheless, your point is well taken and I'm changing the Wikipedia edit.
You are qualified to do such things on Wikipedia. Many, however, state facts and make edits with about zero knowledge on the subject.
Both WWJs and WXYTs arrays are a bit of a mess. Didn't the township also limit the tower height on this?
WWJ, AFAIK, was able to get its array built without too much interference (no pun intended) from the local government (Berlin Twp., IIRC). It is a fairly well-designed array, two 480' and four 400' sticks, and the only "mess" may be that they had to "protect" a ghost station (CKBB Barrie) that had been gone for 15 years, and was not at all likely to be rebuilt. The null hampers reception on the far east side of Detroit and the suburbs by and beyond Lake St. Clair.
The mess with WXYT was in trying to go 50 kW with a 1270 still in Charlevoix. They preferred the Ash Twp. site to the WWJ site (which had a lot of available land for it) because the null to protect Charlevoix would have gone right through all of Oakland County if transmitting from Berlin Twp. The residents of the area around the WXYT site (several trailer parks nearby, none in the major lobe) voiced their preference for an unlighted array, so they agreed to the short towers.
When I saw where WXYT was going, I thought to myself that they were making a mistake. If they could not have bought WMKT (or was it WVOY then?) into "daytimerhood", they should have either bought WCHB and rebuilt it at WWJ's site, or use their floundering FM operation on 97.1 instead (ultimately, they did in fact do the latter)
As for Wikipedia edits without knowledge, LOL. I spent a whole night once correcting the class of many Honolulu stations. Seems somebody thought any powerful station there must be a Class C (as with FM radio). I went to the FCC AMQ site and cited the corrections for each.
The mess with WXYT was in trying to go 50 kW with a 1270 still in Charlevoix. They preferred the Ash Twp. site to the WWJ site (which had a lot of available land for it) because the null to protect Charlevoix would have gone right through all of Oakland County if transmitting from Berlin Twp. The residents of the area around the WXYT site (several trailer parks nearby, none in the major lobe) voiced their preference for an unlighted array, so they agreed to the short towers.
When I saw where WXYT was going, I thought to myself that they were making a mistake. If they could not have bought WMKT (or was it WVOY then?) into "daytimerhood", they should have either bought WCHB and rebuilt it at WWJ's site, or use their floundering FM operation on 97.1 instead (ultimately, they did in fact do the latter)
As for Wikipedia edits without knowledge, LOL. I spent a whole night once correcting the class of many Honolulu stations. Seems somebody thought any powerful station there must be a Class C (as with FM radio). I went to the FCC AMQ site and cited the corrections for each.
In the early days of radio, there was a belief that a station should only use as much power as necessary to reach the area it was trying to serve. I believe that Frank Fallain subscribed to that philosophy, moving from 1310 (later would have been 1340) to 880 (which became 910 after NARBA) with just 1000 watts with a three tower array, getting approval in 1940. If he had subscribed to the later philosophy that the more power the better, he might have done what many other broadcasters did and go to 5000 watts full time by 1941. Fred Leonard can tell you, as can many other broadcasters who post here, what a respected station WFDF was when he worked there in the 1960s. Had later owners had more vision, they might have made the format better and had sales people who were more motivated to sell ads on AM. As it was, they kind of let things go and so of course when ABC/Disney offered to buy it, they were more than happy to sell. When CC tried to move WWVA to Bath, Ohio, there was a great outcry to prevent it from moving and CC backed off. WWVA remains in Wheeling, West Virginia, another town in the economic doldrums.
I made the mistake of telling a radio geek that WWJ and WXYT could move downriver and be 50000 watts fulltime, but that both would have to be very directional to do so, and they would be so far away that many areas further North would get much less signal. This particular radio geek proceeded into the CBS Detroit GM's office at that time and told him what I had said. All CBS could hear was 50000 watts. Shortly thereafter, the applications began being submitted. Coincidence? I think not. As I recall, the owners offered to downgrade WMKT if CBS would find them another frequency with the same or better signal to move to. CBS blew it off, and consultants for WXYT proceeded to design and build the oddest looking directional antenna system in North America and probably the world. When WSNQ 900 Gaylord surrendered its license, I had also quickly come up with a plan that would have allowed WFDF to be at least 10000 watts daytime with the existing array. I told too many people about that one also. There's another person who sometimes posts here who could have found another FM frequency for WSUI to move its programming. That could have allowed them to increase the WSUI NIF like WHBY did. So difficult, yes, but impossible, no.
I made the mistake of telling a radio geek that WWJ and WXYT could move downriver and be 50000 watts fulltime, but that both would have to be very directional to do so, and they would be so far away that many areas further North would get much less signal. This particular radio geek proceeded into the CBS Detroit GM's office at that time and told him what I had said. All CBS could hear was 50000 watts. Shortly thereafter, the applications began being submitted. Coincidence? I think not. As I recall, the owners offered to downgrade WMKT if CBS would find them another frequency with the same or better signal to move to. CBS blew it off, and consultants for WXYT proceeded to design and build the oddest looking directional antenna system in North America and probably the world. When WSNQ 900 Gaylord surrendered its license, I had also quickly come up with a plan that would have allowed WFDF to be at least 10000 watts daytime with the existing array. I told too many people about that one also. There's another person who sometimes posts here who could have found another FM frequency for WSUI to move its programming. That could have allowed them to increase the WSUI NIF like WHBY did. So difficult, yes, but impossible, no.
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The thoughts of increasing WWJ's power beyond 5,000 watts and moving their TL downriver went back quite a few years. I had actually been talking (on 2-meter amateur radio, we were both AROs) to someone who worked for WWJ in engineering in 1984 (or 1985) who had said they might do it "if we could use more watts" (as, at this time, a Regional channel station could only be Class III and, no ifs, ands or buts, 5000 watts or less).
What ultimately drove the decision to move and upgrade WWJ was the "Fox surprise", where CBS Television lost their affiliate to Fox, and bought channel 62 to stay on in the Detroit market. They decided to build a taller tower (I think they wanted a tower over 1400' tall but settled for one a little over 1100' - still the tallest in the market) on land they already owned - the WWJ AM radio TL. They razed the taller of their two towers to make room for the TV tower, so they had to move the AM facility (or go daytime-only, a no-go when drivetime traffic is a major selling point and your market is essentially on double-daylight savings time more than half of the year).
As for WXYT, I can't prove my own suspicion that the Tigers demanded they have 50,000 watts (as well as dozens of millions of dollars) if they were to replace WJR as the "Home of the Tigers". I do remember the vague statement that they would "increase power" if they got the contract.
What ultimately drove the decision to move and upgrade WWJ was the "Fox surprise", where CBS Television lost their affiliate to Fox, and bought channel 62 to stay on in the Detroit market. They decided to build a taller tower (I think they wanted a tower over 1400' tall but settled for one a little over 1100' - still the tallest in the market) on land they already owned - the WWJ AM radio TL. They razed the taller of their two towers to make room for the TV tower, so they had to move the AM facility (or go daytime-only, a no-go when drivetime traffic is a major selling point and your market is essentially on double-daylight savings time more than half of the year).
As for WXYT, I can't prove my own suspicion that the Tigers demanded they have 50,000 watts (as well as dozens of millions of dollars) if they were to replace WJR as the "Home of the Tigers". I do remember the vague statement that they would "increase power" if they got the contract.
I can remember having a WXYT discussion with someone i know at the field office. They said that maintaining the old site was a nightmare as there was always construction going on and the pattern distortion that this causes. Ash really did clamp down on their antenna height. The township that i located WSNL to hired
a guy that consulted Ash Township on the WXYT build. I fared much better than they did. The story goes like this. Mike Illich demanded a 50 KW home for the wings, thinking that it would cover like WJR. Yup, he got his 50KW....
I am glad that my thoughts on WWJ was corrected. I used to pick them up so much better from their old site.
Anyone listening to WWJ on their HD radio? It sounds better, the highs are crisper, when the radio shifts to analog. Odd.
a guy that consulted Ash Township on the WXYT build. I fared much better than they did. The story goes like this. Mike Illich demanded a 50 KW home for the wings, thinking that it would cover like WJR. Yup, he got his 50KW....
I am glad that my thoughts on WWJ was corrected. I used to pick them up so much better from their old site.
Anyone listening to WWJ on their HD radio? It sounds better, the highs are crisper, when the radio shifts to analog. Odd.
This prediction goes way back beyond the WWJ and the WXYT filings. I analyzed the new rules and commented on their impact in 1988. Those comments were on file at the FCC the last I knew. They were done on a 9 pin printer and would probably stick out if you searched for it in a hard copy file. Just four Class III stations have been able to get 50 kW fulltime, and only four more have been able to get 25 kW or more at night. I correctly predicted what types of stations would be able to upgrade, and how they would have to do it (turn in other licenses and use arrays with many towers, arrays the FCC said it didn't want). WWJ and WXYT were the two best examples, though I didn't name them specifically in the comments. The rules sat there for several years before WTMJ and WRC even tried to upgrade to 50 kW, and then they were done with conventional (WTMJ) and existing (WRC) arrays.
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