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RM-11331

D

dbdigital

Guest
Any thoughts on the proposal to allow translators to originate programming?Personally, I'm against it. Yes, I realize that it could put LPFM in urban areas. But since these translators are already in the hands of licensed broadcasters the proposal circumvents and, I feel, sabotages the whole LPFM licensing process. It's bad enough that many local groups and organizations who had been forced to wait patiently and "play by the rules" while the FCC slowly processes the first round of LPFM applications had to endure having their hopes dashed when the FCC launched the Great Translator Giveaway, a window in which licensed broadcasters freely (and in some cases dishonestly) gourged themselves on remaining FM spectrum. Now these same broadcasters want the FCC to thrust aside the LPFM licensing process so that they can begin airing original local content on their free translators.I say that unless these broadcasters are willing to risk giving up their translator licenses to these local groups then they should not be allowed to it. The petition should be denied.db
 
REC Networks plans on filing against the petition citing differences between the nature of TV broadcast allotments vs. FM allotments and how TV translators running local programming is warranted where FM translators are not. We already have a similar service called LPFM.
ec
 
This was on the table during the re-regulation of FMT's in the 1980's. It was strongly opposed by the NAB and vocal groups of local broadcasters (like CACTUS here in Arizona...that was Cancel All Commercial Translator Use Soon). I owned 9 FMT's at that time, some of them supported by :30 of advertising per hour, and along with other operators like John LaTour, I was trying very hard to get this through, pre-LPFM. Now, I would oppose such a measure.BTW, many of the CACTUS people later found creative ways to utilize commercial FMT's themselves...on their terms.
 
Re: RM-11331 - What are poeple really against??

For the life of me I can not understand why people would oppose this RM and support the PROHIBITION OF LOCAL PROGRAMMING. This is the classic "If I can't control it then I don't want it." What happened to all of the noble local service original programming community oriented campaigning? The are Thousands of translators on the air broadcasting now. In fact I'll bet there is one within listening range of where you are now. (Whereever that is).With a continuing ban on satelite feeding of commercial translators, this RM would allow for massive amounts of Highschool football, School Board meetings, City council meetings and other functions all over the country. Also this would free up many small town "Rimshot" FMs which are used only to feed urban translators as the UTs could originate programming themselves. The opposition of this RM shows that for many, this fight is not about local broadcasting but "ME" broadcasting. If you truly want to see your community have a chance to have local broadcasting, why wouldn't you support an RM that ends the prohibition on it? There's really only one reason...If you demand station ownership to play your five favorite album cuts at 2:AM then perhaps you should wait for a more practical answer and require these thousands of stations to mindlessly repeat distant programs.From a practical standpoint, translators are here to stay. Unless CACTUS were to succeed this RM is an answer to local radio and it should be supported.Bill DoernerCorpus Christi
 
Re: RM-11331 - What are poeple really against??

clouseau said:
For the life of me I can not understand why people would oppose this RM and support the PROHIBITION OF LOCAL PROGRAMMING. This is the classic "If I can't control it then I don't want it." What happened to all of the noble local service original programming community oriented campaigning? The are Thousands of translators on the air broadcasting now. In fact I'll bet there is one within listening range of where you are now. (Whereever that is).With a continuing ban on satelite feeding of commercial translators, this RM would allow for massive amounts of Highschool football, School Board meetings, City council meetings and other functions all over the country. Also this would free up many small town "Rimshot" FMs which are used only to feed urban translators as the UTs could originate programming themselves. The opposition of this RM shows that for many, this fight is not about local broadcasting but "ME" broadcasting. If you truly want to see your community have a chance to have local broadcasting, why wouldn't you support an RM that ends the prohibition on it? There's really only one reason...If you demand station ownership to play your five favorite album cuts at 2:AM then perhaps you should wait for a more practical answer and require these thousands of stations to mindlessly repeat distant programs.From a practical standpoint, translators are here to stay. Unless CACTUS were to succeed this RM is an answer to local radio and it should be supported.Bill DoernerCorpus Christi
So how many translators/translator CP's do you have? If anything sounds self-serving your comments do.This isn't about "me" broadcasting. This is about what's fair and honest. Many civic groups and organizations have been waiting patiently for years for the FCC to open up another LPFM window only to be trumped, for the most part, by the Great Translator Giveaway of 2003. But, last I checked, the FCC's LPFM Service is still the only legal mechanism for obtaining an originating low power FM station.Since the FCC intention for translators is to provide fill-in coverage for existing broadcast stations any other use should rightly and consistent with FCC practice move those translator channels into either an auction or the LPFM licensing process where they would be available to anyone. People who either applied for or bought translator CP's from Radio Assist Ministry/Edgewater or any other group thinking they could later convert them to originating broadcast stations are taking a dishonest and risky approach to low power FM.To paraphrase the sentiments of another highly charged issue: if you want an LPFM station, you do it legally and get in back of the line.db
 
Re: RM-11331 - What are poeple really against??

clouseau said:
This is the classic "If I can't control it then I don't want it." What happened to all of the noble local service original programming community oriented campaigning?
How can you claim to know my reasons for opposing FMT origination when I didn't state them? I'm frankly dismayed at the rather low committment to playing by the rules I see in the translator game currently. They're not worthy.
 
The Question was asked... "So how many translators/translator CP's do you have?"The answer is "ONE". And it is situated on a phone pole at the back of a piece of property I work at that is 1/2 mile from my house. It will house a community station originally planned for 107.9 as KPIB-lp... Now DKPIB-lp. A tower siting brick wall killed this one.Another poster said... "Many civic groups and organizations have been waiting patiently for years for the FCC to open up another LPFM window only to be trumped, for the most part, by the Great Translator Giveaway of 2003." Again I point out that this argument is not about "Getting local service" it's about "My Guys getting to broadcast". Remember that translators and LPFM's and Commercial FMs and Non Comm's all share the same space. I have not ever hinted that LPFM should not continue. Hell, I'm a former applicant. The speed at which LPFM windows have come at is an abomination. But the only reason to prevent an existing transmitter from serving their community in a better way is because you aren't on the air. These posts show that for some folks it is not about "Getting Service", it's about "Who Provides the service."I support "Translator" spacing rules for LPFM. If they were equal then my nieghborhood would have a station. But they don't. They have a translator CP that did NOT take up an existing LPFM location. And some folks think that transmitter should be forced to repeat a tejano station from 75 miles away and hope that someone is crazy enough to try and broadcast the school board meeting on an SCA channel that requires a $29.95 radio and doesn't work as well as OTA. Who says "That's my idea of public service".I'm not trying to be a flamer here, but the true "Community service" would be to allow "ALL" stations to serve where ever they are, wouldn't it? Do you deny - more voices equals more service? I get the whole "we hate the translator operators" thing. But translators are not going away. When it comes to my (AND MANY OTHER ZIP CODES) it's going to be local service from a transmitter with numbers in the callsign. Either that or "[coordinates] cannot be used to apply for a low power broadcast station on ANY FM channel due to interference caused to authorized FM broadcast stations. "Now I'm not stupid enough to believe that all translator operators will be interested in this. In fact, I'll bet a lot aren't. But some are. However, Unless you actually are delusional enough to think that LPFM will ever get the spacing that translators have AND get the NAB to look the other way, this is a small win for even "Semi-urban" areas.Open your mind. Remember the objective of local service. This RM makes sense.Bill Doernerk241atMentor to http://www.htradio.net
 
I'm kind of confused on what these translator licensees want to achieve. Are they looking to originate programming 24/7 and cease relaying, or only originate programming on occasion?If the translators really just want to originate "town council meetings, high school sports, etc.", would it not be possible to stipulate that programming originating from translators would indeed have to indeed ORIGINATE LIVE from the translator. That is, pre-recorded music and programming, automated, or satellite-delivered programming would be prohibited. TIS stations are prohibited from airing music except as incidental or backing music, so it doesn't seem unprecedented, especially seeing how these xlator licensees knew fully well their licenses prohibited them from originating programming.
 
Hmm. I like the "originate live" idea. Would you allow the use of automation where it would only be used to play music, spots, and other program elements, except a live DJ would front or back sell, or even just give time & temp once an hour? Or would there have to be just a CD player(s) and a jock? Where should the line be drawn?Should there be a limit on the spot load for commercial translators? I'm definitely in favor of saying no time-brokerage at all, or put a limit on it, such that any group that brokered time would have to be (primarily) located within the translator's coverage area, and would have to commit to the same "originate live" concept, rather than airing pretaped or satellite fed programming.Thinking about it, I'm inclined to let them run as many spots as they like, to make sure there's enough money to pay for live & local origination.
 
Chad-Stevens said:
I'm kind of confused on what these translator licensees want to achieve. Are they looking to originate programming 24/7 and cease relaying, or only originate programming on occasion?
All you need to do is look at the broadcaster who is petitioning for this. What that broadcaster did not tell you is that the translator that they have was assigned by a religious organization (not Radio Assist/Edgewater) which that organization received free of charge. Even though a commercial entity now owns the translator, because they are relaying a non-commercial station, they can still claim a fee exemption. It is only obvious that this broadcaster wants a second commercial signal in this community.There is room for an LPFM for the community. Now we just need a filing window.=m
 
Johnathan said:
Hmm. I like the "originate live" idea. Would you allow the use of automation where it would only be used to play music, spots, and other program elements, except a live DJ would front or back sell, or even just give time & temp once an hour? Or would there have to be just a CD player(s) and a jock? Where should the line be drawn?
I was kinda semi-sarcastic, but...I mean no pre-recorded programming PERIOD.That is, if they're serious about wanting to air "city council meetings and high school sports", then they shouldn't need to have any recorded music or programming. Any other loophole will be stretched a mile wide before too long. If a translator licensee could abide by this one very simple to figure out restriction, then I have no problem with them originating programming. And the FCC could keep their hands free of regulating formats and programming.But then I truly doubt that very many translator licensees have any real interest at all in serving any local public, much less the licensee behind this RM. Having a bunch of local organizations sign off on an identical form letter supposedly to indicate some sort of grassroots support should give you a clue as to what kind of programming to expect if this RM passes. :mad:All that said, I would wholeheartedly support and encourage the idea of translators dropping their relays to broadcast public safety information during a declared state of emergency.
 
What that broadcaster did not tell you is that the translator that they have was assigned by a religious organization (not Radio Assist/Edgewater) which that organization received free of charge.
The broadcaster bought it from the religious organization. Paid $4000 for it. And I guess the church decided they'd rather have $4k than the station. Broadcast sales happen all the time. Even on LPFM unfortunately.
Even though a commercial entity now owns the translator, because they are relaying a non-commercial station, they can still claim a fee exemption.
They should be able to. In the app it states that the broadcaster's commercial station will be rebroadcast on the translator. If that is so then the broadcaster owes regulatory fees. No argument from anyone including the broadcaster there. If the gripe is that a religious Class "D" repeater is becoming a commercial Class "D" repeater, I can see that, I guess. But with the exception of fees, I believe all 92.1-107.9 translators are created equal and can change back and forth at will. Sheesh, Regulatory fees on a translator are like what $350.00 a year?? If they flip to Comm then they pay. What's the deal?
It is only obvious that this broadcaster wants a second commercial signal in this community.
That is basically correct. However the broadcaster would like to add a locally originated service to the community to replace a licensed and operating repeater. How is this a bad thing? If some version of RM-11331 does not get approved then you can bet the broadcaster will sell the translator to some group or church and get his $4k back. And Taylorville will get imported repeated crap from far away. You don't really think he'll mail back the license and solicit someone to build an LPFM do you? I'm not seeing how this RM is a bad deal for the community.
There is room for an LPFM for the community.
Two if the applicants cooperated. And I'd love to see them applied for. Didn't happen last time... And this has nothing to do with the translator. Unless someone figures they're going to get outbid on those city council meetings rights fees and lose all that good high dollar community programming. :)
Now we just need a filing window.
Amen to that!!This whole thing should be about more stations originating more programming. Requiring this 38 watt "flamethrower" (or any other class "D") to translate distant signals just doen't make sense.
 
Just a note to finish up this discussion.John Anderson over at Diymedia has posted some great links and personal observations on this proposal.http://www.diymedia.net/Given that so many heavy-hitters are against the petition (Clear Channel, the NAB), I think it's safe to say that it is DOA.And I want to clarify one point. It wasn't that I was opposed to the idea of translators broadcasting original programming per se, in fact as has been observed, it would be an alternative to the LPFM licensing mess we are now dealing with.I objected to the proposal mainly because of the Great Translator Invasion of 2003 and the abuse that came about as a result of that FCC window. In view of that event, I felt that the translator proposal would simply allow the wrong parties to capitalize on and be rewarded for their abuse resulting in further abuse of what the FCC had originally intended translators to be used for. Had the GTI not occurred, I would have actually favored a re-thinking of what translators could do to expand localism in broadcasting.After all, the last thing I want is to be agreeing with Clear Channel or the NAB on anything!db
 
Given that so many heavy-hitters are against the petition (Clear Channel, the NAB), I think it's safe to say that it is DOA.

I would disagree. The NAB and Saga both used at their main arguing point that "the FCC looked at this in the early 90's and didn't allow it, why should they allow it now" (Paraphrased.) Also was the "This is not what the service was originally designed to do."

Now when the FCC agreed to look at this issue in May, they clearly knew both points and thought it was worth another look. I'm not seeing that the Big Broadcasters want to go back to the way things were in the early 90's. Public Service commitments... National ownership caps...No moving stations almost at will to larger markets... No relaxed main studio rules.... Most of the reason why these translator prohibitions existed in the first place was to protect small market struggling FM's. That issue doesn't ring true after deregulation in '96. A lot of rules have been modified to allow more choices to the listener since the early 90's. This just isn't one the existing broadcasters like because it creates more choices and doesn't favor "THEM".

I objected to the proposal mainly because of the Great Translator Invasion of 2003 and the abuse that came about as a result of that FCC window. In view of that event, I felt that the translator proposal would simply allow the wrong parties to capitalize...

I can see why the emotional response is "That's not fair" but remember one thing. Class "D" translators are a licensed service just like LP's. In fact the've been around a lot longer. And LP 100's had the first opportunity after RM 99-25 was enacted to apply for spectrum. Only after everyone in the country had an initial chance to apply for the LP service, did the translator service get a window. New translator operators deserved a window and after waiting for a LONG time, they got one. Since the initial LP-100 window there have been 2 commercial FM windows and auctions. Where's the outrage over that? Everyone takes turns.


The fact is, several services share the FM radio band and they always will. Non Comm FM, Commercial FM, Low Power FM, Translator FM and TV-CH6 (A little of it). The issue here isn't "Should we have licensed these translators". There are thousands of these Class "D" translators and many paid license fees and cash to install these transmitters. They aren't going away. You just can't get the poop back in the horse.

The issue is "WHAT ARE THESE TRANSMITTERS GOING TO BROADCAST?" Will a few translator operators have the option of ability to originate programming that serves their listeners? Or will those listeners be limited to imported programs from afar.

The fact is the vast number of FM translators are going to continue to be just that. FM Translators. However, not "ALLOWING" the few that would like to originate that option is just silly. Or self serving. Or just downright vindictive.

There were several very good points raised in the filed comments about why this proposal "SHOULD" be enacted. While the FCC will be very cautious, I think they will relax content rules for FM translators. Just like they did for AM radio, FM Radio, TV, Low Power TV, TIS/HAR etc...
 
dbdigital said:
THIS is why translators must never be allowed to be used for anything other than what the FCC intended them for.

http://www.diymedia.net/

It's enough to make you sick.

db

Edgewater is acting just like the ticket "scalpers" at ball games. This kind of scalping should be illegal, too.

Maybe we can persuade Radio Caroline to steam over here and broadcast alternative programming from International Waters offshore...

-- Jason
 
It's interesting to note the very low price most of these permits was sold for. Most well under $10K.

With a little help from RM11331, a lot of these permits could actually end up providing a voice in areas where LPFM isn't now or won't be available.

Clouseau
 
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