Rnagemaster Sounding Good Updater

[rickityone]

Another Saturday (see previous thread) working on the AM - following Bill DeFelice's mention of adding some more devices to the Behringer part of the audio chain which was computer>bass and mid range adjusted Rane mixing board>Behringer Sonic SX 3040>Inovonics 222>Rangemaster - I went back to the Behringer catalog and checked out their Sonic Ultramizer SU 9920 (who comes up with these names), which like the Sonic Exciter is being deep discounted from $149 to $88.97 at several online retailers including Amazon and zZounds.

So I bought one and installed it today. After futzing with it in various ways in the chain I ended up with it as follows: computer>mixing board set all neutral>SU 9920>SX 3040>Inovonics>Rangemaster.

It is sounding very GOOD. Clean with a really tasty bass sound, very rich and warm - Dr John, Tom Waits, Otis Redding, Alicia Bridges, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Jon Luc Ponty, Pink Floyd, George Benson, Kings of Leon all sound very clear and clean, muddy is gone, as is most of the shrill that seems to accompany digital violins and such. Still not perfect but so0o0o0oo0o very much better.

We no longer have turntables, well, we have the turntables in storage, but all the vinyl is gone - it would be interesting for comparison purposes to hear how some of the same songs sounded coming from an analog source.

Top of the hour ID segue's into Them - "Here Comes the Night" - sounds just great. I am very pleased - and of course I'll continue to futz. Messing with these things is like fixing soup to taste.

Lots of positive impact for not a lot of money.

Regards,
Rickity
www.gulchradio.com

 

[RadioMan203]

Audio processing is one of those things that people can just lose themselves in. Whether you love hardware boxes like your truly, use software-based processing or a combination of both you'll have to just adopt a methodology when tweaking all the controls. Glad you've arrived at a sound signature you're happy with, Rickity.

I know from experience you can literally drive yourself up the wall when you put all the variables together: the listener's radio and speakers, the sonic quality of your audio source material, your own formula regarding the way you envision your processing, etc. It funny you mention vinyl. For the most part when I dub vinyl to the digital domain I attempt to balance it out so it sounds good while improving it for the transfer. I know of others who habitually over-equalize the audio where it comes out harsh and tinny sounding even when compared to a re-release on compact disc.

I think you've stumbled on something I found in common with many web streamers. They very often use musician's grade audio mixers and feel the need to equalize the audio channels for their audio source inputs. I usually try to create the sound signature without cascading different EQ from different devices as it's much harder to correct downstream.

 

[Tom Wells]

It is sounding very good on the stream....

In the other thread you mentioned not being happy with the sound in the car at one point when it was sounding great
on other radios. Don't go too far out of your way to accomodate the radios that are never going to sound good.
There could be several reasons why a particular design or particular radio my not like a high RF environment
or deal poorly with a high-fidelity signal.

Be much more attentive to the radios that allow you to hear the small changes (improvements) you are making.

Glad to hear things are improving. I'd love to hear a real aircheck of the AM.

 

[rickityone]

I'll see if I can record the audio off the AM into the computer and then post it someplace, not sure where - any suggestions?

I went and did my usual car check, just as the sun had set and it sounded really nice - I can drive a ways out of town and start to get the KOMA effect, which is fun, but tonal quality shifts.

Harry Nillson sounded great. I am having fun and I appreciate both of your feedback.

Regards,
Rickity
www.gulchradio.com

Harlem Nocturne, the Viscounts, now there is an AM song if ever there was one!

 

[Tom Wells]

I have posted audio files before on Sendspace and it seems to work just fine.

Lately I have begun uploading podcasts of my AM again. I had stopped when the files started getting downgraded to 96k,
and I just couldn't justify the effort at that quality level.

But they're back to 128 and sound fine. It costs nothing to set up an account on Pod-O Matic.

http://thomasjwells.podomatic.com/

 

[BobOnTheJob]

I can drive a ways out of town and start to get the KOMA effect, which is fun, but tonal quality shifts.

How far does your Rangemaster carry on a good car radio and is it fully Part 15 compliant?

 

[Tom Wells]

Still hoping to hear an aircheck of how you're sounding.

 

[rickityone]

Still hoping to hear an aircheck of how you're sounding.

Hi Tom - I'm still working on it, will do.

After my initial joy - it seems that the sound is less consistent than it should be, which puzzles me. So fiddling continues.

Regards,
Rickity
www.gulchradio.com

 

[rickityone]

I can drive a ways out of town and start to get the KOMA effect, which is fun, but tonal quality shifts.

How far does your Rangemaster carry on a good car radio and is it fully Part 15 compliant?

As far as I know, we are fully compliant. I'm no longer comfortable giving distance reports because of the potential for controversy on these boards. I will tell you we are on a mountainside 1,500 ft above a valley and the mountain is full of copper, iron and zinc, the air is clean and there is little electrical interference in the area due to our rural nature, so the signal gets out there at least as far as the manufacturer claims pretty well.

Regards,
Ricfkity
www.gulchradio.com

 

[rickityone]

Still hoping to hear an aircheck of how you're sounding.

Hi Tom - I'm still working on it, will do.

After my initial joy - it seems that the sound is less consistent than it should be, which puzzles me. So fiddling continues.

Regards,
Rickity
www.gulchradio.com

Found a patch cord - recorded most of morning show, need to cut it down and figure out how to post it. Recorded from a Tivioli table radio. There is a buzz in there - damn!

 

[rickityone]

Still hoping to hear an aircheck of how you're sounding.

[/quote]

Found a patch cord - recorded most of morning show, need to cut it down and figure out how to post it. Recorded from a Tivioli table radio. There is a buzz in there - damn!

[/quote]

Here you go - my first podomatic moment. As I noted in the comments on their site, there is a buzz that I think is coming from our mixing board and also, on some songs, you can hear a pumping or breathing kind of effect - most noticeably on songs with heavy syncopation.

http://rickity.podomatic.com/entry/2011-09-29T15_46_55-07_00

regards,
Rickity
www.gulchradio.com

 

[RadioMan203]

I scanned your audio aircheck and came up with some thoughts:

The track by Kiki Dee, Don't Go Breakin' My Heart, the processing sounds quite good, the highs have a nice snap and the fill from the compression sounds good without being overly aggressive. While I personally like heavy compression for classic hits / oldies formats its overuse can result in lower TSL/TLH. On this track I didn't find it objectionable as it didn't appear you were driving the 222 very hard.

The Geo Harrison "What Is Life" track is one I've used myself for setting the airchain at a few oldies outlets I engineered. To me it sounds a little harsh (busy?) in the mid-range frequencies, which coud be due to either one of the Behringer boxes or the Inovonics 222. The Carla Thomas B-A-B-Y track also has a harsh edge as well prominent in the vocal and organ. In contrast, the Delany and Bonnie and Friend's track and the country-sounding track it sounded much more balanced and less harsh but they also didn't have as much midrange energy in comparison.

Does the Tivoli have tone controls, and if so, were they set somewhere other than flat (in the middle)? I don't know if the radio itself was coloring your recording but I'll go on the assumption that you did have any tone controls set for flat. Under that assumption I might suggest turning off the pre-emphasis on the 222 to see if that helps remove some of the harshness in the vocal range (3 - 4 KHz). Otherwise it seems what I found on the Behringer site may help you with your quest.

I looked up both of your processors on the Behringer site and both the SU9920 and the SX3020 seems to have similar attributes. This Sound on Sound article appears to confirm my suspicions as well. They both seems to have similar attributes as they both state "Produces natural brightness through harmonic enhancement and tighter bass with increased punch through phase compensation" (slightly different language between both pages). I question if a processor that's really meant for stereo imaging would be of any benefit to mono audio airchain.

The SU9920 boasts stellar frequency response from 25 Hz to 50 kHz. The Process control provides a boost of up to +12 dBu at 5 kHz. If you're boosting the 5KHz component this may be responsible for the harshness. You may be better off either delegating either one or both Behringer pieces for your webstream and re-thinking the processing for the AM.

If you have the bucks you may want to consider a mono Aphex Compellor in front of the 222. If you're cash-strapped you may be able to use an inexpensive musician's compressor like a budget DBX or Behringer. I'm experimenting with the Behringer Ultramizer Pro DSP1424P running it in multiband compression only. Some of the control parameters aren't labelled the way I would like to see them but this box appears to have potential and was picked up for under $60 on ebay. Something like this may help alleviate the midrange peak you have in your audio. Of course you'd be using one channel for your mono airchain.

I know the Rangemaster's audio can sound wonderful when processed correctly. For the high school station I oversee we had a Omnia Classic AM donated to the school and it sounds awesome. Granted, it's a lot more than the 222 and then some, but you should be able to get very good audio results with careful engineering of your outboard audio gear.

 

[Tom Wells]

I have been listening very carefully on the laptop, in the car, and with headphones.
The hum is probably only there at the studios by some rf working its way into the radio via the power supply.
There probably isn't the same hum in the car, is there?

The radio may have something to do with the sound. Is it analog or digital tuned?
Do you know if it's a passive or PLL detector?

I thought maybe there was some weakness in the overall low-end response until the miked segments.
Is the miking through the same chain?

The music seems to have bass supressed from 400 hz and down. The vocals all rise above the musical bed as though there is a gating effect, or supression of stereo-imaged audio. The mono vocals cut through but anything with stero image seems to
be supressed. Maybe the intent of improving stero imaging causes cancellation when the audio is taken to mono.
I hear this on major market FMs sometime when listening in mono. This may also be why it sounds gated, and even seems to
vacuum away some of the natural recording ambience.
It's almost like ambience that emphasizes the separation in stereo is simply subtracted as heard here in momo.

Try bridging the two audio channels together before the processing can dink with the stereo image.

Don't know if any of the processors are multiband type, but I found I wasn't happy until I had multiband processing.

I can slide the levels up and down at the last step before my second processor and it's hard to hear much difference
in the fullness of sound over a 12 db range in level. It just gets fatter.

What other radios do you use to check, and how do they compare with the presentation on the Tivoli?

 

[rickityone]

I have been listening very carefully on the laptop, in the car, and with headphones.
The hum is probably only there at the studios by some rf working its way into the radio via the power supply.
There probably isn't the same hum in the car, is there?

The radio may have something to do with the sound. Is it analog or digital tuned?
Do you know if it's a passive or PLL detector?

I thought maybe there was some weakness in the overall low-end response until the miked segments.
Is the miking through the same chain?

The music seems to have bass supressed from 400 hz and down. The vocals all rise above the musical bed as though there is a gating effect, or supression of stereo-imaged audio. The mono vocals cut through but anything with stero image seems to
be supressed. Maybe the intent of improving stero imaging causes cancellation when the audio is taken to mono.
I hear this on major market FMs sometime when listening in mono. This may also be why it sounds gated, and even seems to
vacuum away some of the natural recording ambience.
It's almost like ambience that emphasizes the separation in stereo is simply subtracted as heard here in momo.

Try bridging the two audio channels together before the processing can dink with the stereo image.

Don't know if any of the processors are multiband type, but I found I wasn't happy until I had multiband processing.

I can slide the levels up and down at the last step before my second processor and it's hard to hear much difference
in the fullness of sound over a 12 db range in level. It just gets fatter.

What other radios do you use to check, and how do they compare with the presentation on the Tivoli?

Hi Tom and Bill - thanks for taking the time to listen.

First, Bill your comment about the "process control" caused me to go look at it and I saw that I had the two channels adjusted differently, so I backed both of them off and made them the same, which made an improvement in my opinion.

I also spent some time last night reading about Aphex Compellor's of which there are a number of variations. My question, everything that feeds the transmitter is stereo until it goes through the Inovonics, so if one were to acquire an Amphex Compellor, would not a stereo capable one be okay. I read that the 301, each channel is mono capable. There are a number of these on ebay at what seems to be reasonable prices.

Tom and Bill - the Tivioli table radio I used to capture the broadcast is analog, I don't know what kind of tuner design it uses. I have several Tivioli's and have been a little disappointed with their tuning capabilities. I have an analog Sony ICF-38 which seems to have a good tuner that doesn't drift on either AM or FM - the Tivioli does on both a bit - so I am going to give it a try at making another recording. I should probably also try recording off of a digital radio, therefore right on the frequency.

The microphone (MXL) feeds directly into the mixing board.

I recorded a bit this morning and noted that the buzz is coming from the proximity of the computer to the radio, which I am glad, easier to move the radio than get under the console zone and futz with wiring.

Today or tomorrow, depends on how hot it is outside - access to the Inovonics is from the outside, on the sunny side of the building, I'm going to go and try working a bit with it, keeping in mind Bill's suggestions.

Tom - I don't know why you'd get a stereo indicator light because the recording is monophonic - more magic from the mountainside music machine?

Thanks very much for your help - I really appreciate it.

Regards,
Rickity
www.gulchradio.com

 

[RadioMan203]

Rickity,

I didn't focus on your hum since I'm convinced you'll track it down to a bad ground somewhere along the path. I figured getting your audio set would be the bigger chore.

My own personal preference would be to deal with mono audio from the console, if possible. While I'm sure you feed your webcast in stereo I just find it easier to deal with a mono-sum circuit at the console rather than worry about phasing or other anomalies by trying to get a mono signal down the chain.

With that in mind, you could use a stereo Compellor and use one of the two channels for your AM audio chain. I just don't like summing processed audio down wind of the processors but you can certainly try it. I think the simplest thing to try would be a Compellor or any compressor / limiter set very gently (perhaps not more than 2:1 with less aggressive attack and release times) feeding the 222. Anything aggressive for the first processor will make the 222 sound very loud and processed unless you barely hit it - perhaps no more than a couple of db limiting at best. BTW: If you go for a Compellor try to stay with the 320a (stereo) or 323a (mono with Aural Exciter). Other models don't have the cumulative fixes by Aphex and are less desired by those who know the products.

You didn't mention if any of the radios you have are equipped with tone controls. Before you make your recording make sure any tone controls are set in the middle of their range or in the "flat" position so the radio doesn't falsely color your audio.

Rickity, once I get some of the outstanding videos for product reviews out of the way I think I may do a basic audio processing "how-to" over on the HobbyBroadcaster.net site since you and a few others seem to have an interest. It may be a great way to demo using basic musician's gear to get good sounding station audio.

 

[rickityone]

Rickity,

I didn't focus on your hum since I'm convinced you'll track it down to a bad ground somewhere along the path. I figured getting your audio set would be the bigger chore.


You didn't mention if any of the radios you have are equipped with tone controls. Before you make your recording make sure any tone controls are set in the middle of their range or in the "flat" position so the radio doesn't falsely color your audio.

Rickity, once I get some of the outstanding videos for product reviews out of the way I think I may do a basic audio processing "how-to" over on the HobbyBroadcaster.net site since you and a few others seem to have an interest. It may be a great way to demo using basic musician's gear to get good sounding station audio.

I forgot - no tone controls on any of these radios. Tone controls, that something old fashioned isn't it? The Sony has a "high - low" switch.

An audio processing how to would be great and you can use anything of merit you find in our discussion as far as I am concerned.

I look forward to it.

regards,
Rickity
www.gulchradio.com

 

[Tom Wells]

I wasn't hearing any stereo, but think maybe the phase "enhancing" effects of the processor which help with stereo imaging are detrimental and cause cancellation of some frequencies when such a stereo output is summed for mono.

The next step would be to compare a recording where you edit the file into mono first and see if the mix and balance is different.

I'm very partial to old continuous-tuning AM radios, where side-tuning can make a big difference in tonal balance,
even without any actual "tone controls" in the audio amp.

How does it sound on the car radio?

The effect of the vocals becoming over-prominent may be the result of both the Beringer and Innovonics making the same sort of enhancement to the sound and the result is peaky vocals.

I'm wondering if the balance of sound changes much and how with only one or the other...



My mono method is Breakaway audio processor in "French Kiss" running most of the speed/power/range adjustments
to about 30%. This sounds great but is "dry" Next a pass through an ART PRO VLA one channel with
infinite ratio compression at about -17 db threshold. Then another pass through the second (decoupled) channel of the
ART, with compression ratio at 3.5 : 1, again at a -17 db threshold. Release and attack timing fast on pass 1,
fast attack and "auto" release on the second pass.
Audio to the reverb on a side chain bypasses the second processor.
This gives a wet sound that is to me like a hot wet summer night in 1970.
Then on to the transmittter.

I'm not satisfied with either processor by itself, but together it's very full and musical.

 

[RadioMan203]

@Rickity: I'm not familiar with the Sony so it's hard to presume if it's a high cut or low boost circuit for the time control. If you have a radio with a dedicated record output that would give you a more accurate representation of what is actually making it on the air without any coloration by tone controls or low volume bass boost circuits (which some radios like my car receiver have). Then when you play it back on speakers you're accustomed to listening with you'll have a good baseline.

@Tom: You shouldn't hear stereo since the Rangemaster is a monophonic AM transmitter. It is possible to possibly hear mono-sum artifacts but with mp3 encoding of the audio file it may lead one astray. My thoughts of dealing with a mono signal through the processing chain is a better solution than trying to sum the channels prior to the final AM processor.

Of course you can always try running the 222 without any pre-processing in front of it to see what you get with it. Personally I would consider removing the Behringer devices as I don't think they're buying you any benefit to your sound. I don't know what kind of mixer you're using but you could always try to EQ your audio by inserting an equalizer within the chain, be it through an effects loop in your board (if it has one) or in-between the mixer and the 222. I personally think some gentle level control before the 222 may give you a smoother sound since you can consistently control how hard you're driving the Inovonics box. I discovered driving it too hard will make it sound busy.

 

[rickityone]

@Rickity: I'm not familiar with the Sony so it's hard to presume if it's a high cut or low boost circuit for the time control. If you have a radio with a dedicated record output that would give you a more accurate representation of what is actually making it on the air without any coloration by tone controls or low volume bass boost circuits (which some radios like my car receiver have). Then when you play it back on speakers you're accustomed to listening with you'll have a good baseline.

@Tom: You shouldn't hear stereo since the Rangemaster is a monophonic AM transmitter. It is possible to possibly hear mono-sum artifacts but with mp3 encoding of the audio file it may lead one astray. My thoughts of dealing with a mono signal through the processing chain is a better solution than trying to sum the channels prior to the final AM processor.

Of course you can always try running the 222 without any pre-processing in front of it to see what you get with it. Personally I would consider removing the Behringer devices as I don't think they're buying you any benefit to your sound. I don't know what kind of mixer you're using but you could always try to EQ your audio by inserting an equalizer within the chain, be it through an effects loop in your board (if it has one) or in-between the mixer and the 222. I personally think some gentle level control before the 222 may give you a smoother sound since you can consistently control how hard you're driving the Inovonics box. I discovered driving it too hard will make it sound busy.

You are probably right about losing the Behringers. Being the compulsive kind of guy I am I went and read everything I could find about the Aphex Compeller 320A you recommended and found what appears to be a good one on Ebay and decided to try it out. Money, money - we've got an economy to save! But hey, it's my favorite hobby so why not?

I think something Tom eluded to with his sounding like a "wet, hot summer night" comment, and you, with your "station signature sound" comment - what is it you want your station to sound like is really important.

Too that - I'm totally not satisfied with the way the station sounds when running with the basic audio supplied, uncolored from the computer to the 222 to the Rangemaster. It's just too thin, no bass at all, we mid range, no depth or richness to it. Comparing our sound to the few AM's in the area we sounded horrible. Putting the Behringers in line added bass for sure, and mid range - I could then set the car radio's to flat on bass and mid range and treble. So that is a plus, conversely, the Behringers have added a mid range hiss that seems like a continual brush on a cymbal and that is not a plus.

The stream sounds good always, even on 32 so that is a testimony that the sound generated by the computer is good and I don't want to mess with that, people prefer streams that sound good and I don't want to chase any hard earned listeners away by screwing with the sound.

That means whatever is going to effect the AM has to come after the stream.

The board is Rane and I see that it has an "effects" section. I don't know much about the board (or audio processing for that matter, other than I do know what sounds good) so, I guess I ought to get to learning about the board. When we are broadcasting live, which we do daily they way we are wired in order to mix the digital and analog (microphone input, the music and an additional computer for sfx) we have to switch to another computer that gathers the mixed audio through it's line in and then streams through streaming software - that way both the AM and the stream hear the same thing - AM supplied by the mixing board, stream by computer - once again complicating the process.

One thing I think I have learned here is that the wide variety of music we play makes the project more difficult, maybe one processing doesn't fit all - we go from the Temptations and Alan Parsons in the morning to Rory Gallgher, Joe Bonamassa in the afternoon to Gregg McVicar's UnderCurrents (huge variety there) Katie Webster in the overnights.

What I want is a clean, clear, nice responsive bass and midrange, shrill free horns and drums, with no digital or processed busy reflections going on in the background and no "pumping."

Through all of Tom's posts on the various subsections of radio-info I'm convinced AM can sound good - I remember it did - it's your fault Tom.

Thanks to both of you for your good advice.

So, onward we go.

Rickity
www.gulchradio.com

 

[RadioMan203]

@Rickity: Your programming is quite similar to the later years of my webstream. Playing music from 1960's through the 1980's and early 1990's has its sonic challenges as the music across the decades had different processing styles depending on the genre. The 80's on up introduced more aggressive processing, especially since recording engineers were trying to eek out higher level audio on CD. A well balanced audio chain can be a challenge under these circumstances, especially if you're not using broadcast processing costing thousands of dollars.

The next-to-last processor I used, an Aphex 2020 MKIII wasn't may favorite when it came to sound, but the customer service was quite good. Wayne LaFarr of Aphex actually listened to my stream online and assisted in finding very good sounding settings for the variety of music I played. Down the road I replaced it with an Optimod 6200 DAB which was so much more transparent that it took awhile for me to get use to it.

I mentioned the effects loop for your board as some people insert reverb that way so the the board output has it on all sources prior to feeding downstream equipment (i.e., processing). You may be able to place an EQ as well as reverb in that loop as well. Consult your board's documentation to see if you have that available and how to wire the devices into it.

As long as your transmitter is tuned properly you should be able to make it sound fine. I know I'm still looking for a special processor for my personal "test bed" Rangemaster and my school setup with the Omnia AM Classic pretty much tells me it can sound great even with a wide variety of music.

If you research your purchases carefully you should be able to "flip" gear you fall out of love with. I've purchased gear to play with and sometimes I make out and on others I've lost a bit on. It mostly balances out in the end. Once you find that setup you're happy with just make sure you document your settings in case you get the bug to try tweaking it. The best thing is with so many people going toward digital gear some decent analog gear can be had reasonably for the experimenter / tinkerer to play with.