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Rochester a "Small" Market?

By small I mean geographically. If you go west to Albion and Batavia Time Warner starts carrying the Buffalo stations. If you go south to Geneseo the same thing occurs. Go east to Newark in Wayne County, and you get the Syracuse stations on cable, as I understand Syracuse largely covers the Finger Lakes region(I don't know how much the Southern Tier markets cover them).

I know the Rochester market extends out to Canandaigua and Brockport, but why doesn't it extend out further than that?
 
I'm from New England, know nothing about the Rochester market. Is it because it is the middle of the Buffalo and Syacuse markets and "squeezed" by them/ Just a thought.
 
When Time Warner, or what ever company it was called when cable first came to Rochester in the 1980s, that company did offer Rochester viewers both Buffalo and Syracuse stations. I watched their local newscasts and compared them to Rochester's.
Then the cable company got rid of the Buffalo and Syracuse stations and replaced them with French-speaking stations. Now TW offer thousands of channels that mostly air crap, or the same network but in HD. Isn't progress wonderful? ::)
 
dustintv said:
By small I mean geographically. If you go west to Albion and Batavia Time Warner starts carrying the Buffalo stations. If you go south to Geneseo the same thing occurs. Go east to Newark in Wayne County, and you get the Syracuse stations on cable, as I understand Syracuse largely covers the Finger Lakes region(I don't know how much the Southern Tier markets cover them).

I know the Rochester market extends out to Canandaigua and Brockport, but why doesn't it extend out further than that?

No, Elmira does not cover the finger lakes. They'll go only as far north as Watkins Glen, or Hector, or Hammondsport (in a stretch) when it comes to video. Farther north, for a reader with a map. They'll carry vid from farther north like Geneva or Seneca Falls if they can get it on a feed. But the Elmira market stops at the northern edges of Steuben, Schuyler and Chemung counties.

Rochester and Syracuse mainly cover the finger lakes. funny thing is, Rochester stations will cover stuff in Waterloo and Seneca Falls, but in those places they're watching Syracuse stations--no one's watching Rochester there.

Rochester's population, as a metro area, is almost twice the size of the Syracuse metro area population, but Nielsen market size, for many many years Syracuse out-sized Rochester. Only in the last few years did Rochester finally beat out the 'cuse for market size.

Geographically, the Syracuse market is huge---ch. 3 WSTM is still on cable as far north as Ogdensburg, I wanna say...And before STM spun off ETM, the STM signal extended down into northern PA (through WETM). Ch. 9/WSYR is still on cable in St. Lawrence County...One can pick up Syracuse stations off-air in Old Forge and even Inlet, in Hamilton County.
 
So why is Syracuse so big in size? When I lived in Ithaca we could get a mix of the Syracuse, Binghamton, and Elmira markets with antenna, but on the Time Warner system there, the Syracuse stations dominate the line-up-even getting News 10 Now, despite the fact that Ithaca is closer to Elmira than Syacuse, yet the only Elmira station Ithaca gets on cable is WENY, which is a similair situation as to what is occurring in places like Newark and Albion--both relatively close to Rochester, both having another market's stations dominate the cable line-up.
 
I live in Caledonia and we get both NBC 2 in Buffalo and Channel 10 NBC here in rochester. IT makes no sense to me why we get a Buffalo station since we are only 15 minutes outside of Rochester and like 1 hour 15minutes from Buffalo. Also lately while im watching TV, during local commercials on the cable networks, I see commercials for NEWS 7 in Buffalo. But we don't even get that channel.
 
I believe WSYR (was WIXT) was removed from the Northern NY systems. Used to be distributed as far up as Malone. Also served Potsdam, Ogdensburg, and Massena.
 
First of all, Mark, thanks for posting that link. As I started to read this thread, I was wishing I had that map in front of me... and I was about to go search for it again. This time, I actually remembered to save a copy!

Dustin, if you didn't figure it out already, Ithaca, part of Tompkins County, is included in the Syracuse market. That's why the cable company in Ithaca carries the Syracuse stations, even though you are physically much closer to Elmira. The FCC requires cable companies to carry the stations for the market in which they are located.

Of course, there are many cases where you get extra stations from different markets. I think a lot of the irregularities with different stations being on cable can be attributed to a number of factors.

1) Heritage. In their early days, many cable companies just pulled in whatever stations they could get. This is why many systems upstate even carry Canadian stations like CKWS, and they continue to do so, even though they aren't required to. It's because people have been so used to having these stations, the cable companies keep piping 'em in. This could also be why some places get some affiliates from one market, and other affiliates from a different market.

2) Location. A cable company's service territory doesn't always line up with market boundaries. Even though it's all Time Warner for just about everyone along the Thruway from Buffalo clear to Albany, and there has been some "centralization" in their facilities... many of the lineups still follow back to the early days. If you live close to a market boundary, chances are good you'll be getting stations from both markets... so the cable company is covered as far as "must carry" rules are concerned, for customers on both sides of the market boundary.

3) Lack of Stations. The only reason WSTM gets into the Watertown market is because Watertown doesn't have an NBC affiliate. Likewise, the only reason WTVH gets into Utica is because that city doesn't have its own CBS station. I'm not sure how WSYR managed to get so far up north while WWTI was on the air, especially after the two became co-owned, but that's since been resolved. But remember, the number of viewers watching WSTM in Watertown do NOT contribute to the Syracuse market's ranking or to WSTM's ratings in the Syracuse market. Likewise for WTVH viewership in Utica.

4) Making up for market irregularities. Just as Ithaca is closer to Elmira than Syracuse... Rome is closer to Utica than Syracuse. TimeWarner in Rome carries both Utica and Syracuse. Must carry rules require TW to carry Syracuse, but they also know the Rome viewers prefer the Utica stations, since Utica does a much better job covering Rome.

Rochester basically gets squeezed because both Syracuse and Buffalo have their own affiliates for all the major networks. The only opportunity for a Rochester station to be extended out-of-market via cable would be for WROC into the Elmira area, since that market doesn't have a CBS station. I don't know if that's the case, or if cable systems in Elmira are getting CBS from elsewhere (most likely Binghamton, Syracuse or Pennsylvania).

On the good side, Rochester's stations don't have to travel as far to cover the news, so it's easier for them to get out there and cover stuff across the entire market. By contrast, Buffalo, Syracuse and Albany are similar to the NYC market (geographically) -- the markets are so expansive, many communities NEVER get mentioned unless there's a murder or a multiple-fatal crash. Something like a newly remodeled City Hall or the opening of a new shopping mall right in town will get coverage -- but the exact same event in a town 90 minutes away (but still in the market) won't get attention because... it's 90 minutes away.
 
Expanding on that "heritage" issue - it's possible to trace back the larger geographic sizes of the Buffalo and Syracuse markets vs. Rochester all the way to the decisions that were made way back in the 40s and 50s about tower siting.

Syracuse and Buffalo both built (at pretty big expense) maximum facilities pretty early, with WHEN-TV and WSYR-TV locating on Sentinel Heights, a nearly ideal site for wide-area service, and WBEN-TV and WGR-TV moving by the mid-50s to tall towers in the hills south of Buffalo, again to serve a widely-spread audience as far afield as northwest PA and southern Ontario.

WHAM-TV and later WHEC-TV/WVET-TV never followed through on what would have been a similar move, building a tall tower on Baker Hill in Perinton, instead remaining on the Pinnacle Hill site, which provided excellent service to the urban core of the market but is far less effective at wide-area coverage.

In the days before cable, viewers in places like Batavia or Seneca Falls would naturally have pointed their antennas where the signals were strongest, and that meant Buffalo or Syracuse instead of Rochester. Cable carriage and DMA boundaries simply followed those early patterns, and continue to do so even now.

(This also explains, to some extent, why viewers as close in as southern Monroe County still see some Buffalo stations on their cable; in some communities, the franchise agreements specified continued carriage of the signals that were already being carried, and so it's possible - I don't know this for certain - that TWC actually has to keep carrying WGRZ, WNED, etc. to meet its local franchise terms in places like Mendon and Avon, or at least that those communities are on the same system as other communities that ARE required to carry those signals.)
 
Thank you Mr. Fybush for sharing that bit of infomation. That I guess would explain why Newark gets the Syracuse channels!

BobRoss said:
Dustin, if you didn't figure it out already, Ithaca, part of Tompkins County, is included in the Syracuse market. That's why the cable company in Ithaca carries the Syracuse stations, even though you are physically much closer to Elmira. The FCC requires cable companies to carry the stations for the market in which they are located.

Yeah I've always known that, but I thought maybe Time Warner could ''fix it up a little'' if you know what I mean however I forgot about the FCC rules coming into play. But it still strikes me as funny that some p


Rochester basically gets squeezed because both Syracuse and Buffalo have their own affiliates for all the major networks. The only opportunity for a Rochester station to be extended out-of-market via cable would be for WROC into the Elmira area, since that market doesn't have a CBS station. I don't know if that's the case, or if cable systems in Elmira are getting CBS from elsewhere (most likely Binghamton, Syracuse or Pennsylvania).

I think Elmira gets CBS via WBNG. I've heard one can get WYOU via translator that's close to the stateline but I don't think it's carried on cable, nor is WNEP's translator in Towanda, although admittedly I haven't watched a TV set in Elmira for several years(Christmas 2000 to be exact!) so I don't know what the cable line-up looks like nowadays.
 
Elmira gets only two out-of-market stations on cable these days. ABC comes from WENY, NBC from WETM, Fox from WYDC of course; CW is on a WENY-provided cable channel, My Network TV is on a WYDC-owned LPTV that didn't have cable carriage when last I checked, and WETM-DT's former UPN subchannel continues on as "WETM2," with a lineup of syndicated programming and such on DTV and cable.

That leaves CBS, which has come from WBNG since time immemorial, and PBS, which also comes from Binghamton via WSKG (though there's now a DTV-only signal in Elmira, WSKA-DT 30.)

Get out toward the fringes of the Elmira market (Bath, for instance) and more out-of-market stuff begins to show up. I think WROC is still on cable in Bath, and I'm almost certain that's true of Hornell. (In Hornell, WROC is or was on cable channel 10, which suggests that the system there used to carry WHEC on that channel until the 1989 CBS/NBC swap in Rochester.) You don't have to go very far across the state line to start seeing the Scranton stations, either.

The Corning newspaper still lists WKBW, from back in the days when there was no ABC in the market, and CHCH, from the days when the cable companies reached way over the border to grab any signal they could. Neither station has been on cable in Corning for years.
 
To further explain why Ithaca gets Syracuse TV, and not Elmira...

Actually, WENY has been on Ithaca cable for many many years, though now it is "upper tier", something like cable channel 19 or so...WENY includes Ithaca in it's ID's (Elmira, Corning, Ithaca)...And even used to venture to Ithaca to cover daily news there.

However....Probably the reason Ithaca is so Syracuse-heavyy for TV goes back to the late 40s/early 50s, when the only stations on the air were WHEN/ch. 8, WSYR/ch. 5, WHAM ch. 6, and WNBF/Binghamton, ch12. Those original stations stick with people like glue, especially the VHFs. WHAM/WROC left the Ithaca lineup decades ago, but the other three remain, and Syracuse ABC has the prime cable channel 2 on Ithaca cable.
WETM, until 1986, was just a satellite of WSTM, so it would've been redundant...And besides, its UHF ch. 18 signal does not come in, in Ithaca. WENY used to (don't know if they still do) have a translator on VHF ch. 7 in downtown Ithaca.
Ithaca's cable system (rumored to be among, like, the oldest 3 in the country, dating allegedly to the late 40s) in the 1980s was a fantastic hodgepodge of stations from across the northeast...They got all Syracuse, all Rochester, all Binghamton, WENY/Elmira, ALL Scranton (including WVIA, a great station)!...All the NYC indies...That's where i saw WNEP/Scranton still using FILM for tV news as late as 1984.
 
Doesn't everybody get News 10 Now if you're a Time Warner subscriber in Upstate NY. TW just has several versions running, they mix and match features and then pop in related local news stories based on the region your cable provider is out of.
 
Justin Case said:
Doesn't everybody get News 10 Now if you're a Time Warner subscriber in Upstate NY. TW just has several versions running, they mix and match features and then pop in related local news stories based on the region your cable provider is out of.

True to an extent. Time Warner runs four cable news operations in the state. There's NY1 in down in New York, but I don't it is all that connected to the ones upstate. News 10 Now is out of Syracuse, but they cover a large portion of cny from well, up in Watertown all the way down to Binghamton and Ithaca and from at least Auborn/Seneca Falls to at least Utica. I don't know the full coverage. The Albany area gets Capital News, while Rochester gets R News.

Buffalo doesn't have and doesn't get a Time Warner cable news channel. It's stiil fairly recent they switched from Aldelphia, but I asked about it here on this same board and was told it may take a while for one to start up in Buffalo.
 
NY 1 is acutally sent up to a lot of the upstate cable systems. Its (indirectly) a way to provide the upstaters NYC news now that WPIX, WNYW, and WWOR are gone from most areas north of Kingston and Sullivan County.
 
Hey Jiminct,

What I meant about NY1 was I don't know how connected they are to other cable news operations upstate. For example, R News, News 10 and News 9 all air the program Capital Tonight from Albany, but NY1, which we do get as a digital channel here in Brockport, does not as far as I know. As I don't not watch the channel that much, I don't know how well they would even cover upstate as the channel is obviously New York City centric and except for legislative coverage in Albany I doubt unless there is a major major story they cover news north of Poughkeepsie.

Then again, knowing how NYC is the center of the universe for some there's at least three people who think Newbaugh and Poughkeepside are upstate! :eek: ;D
 
I doubt NY1 would have much outside of a bureau in Albany. They may share a feed from NY9 or News10now if a story in other areas upstate warrants coverage.

I mean really...what kind of news in Rochester is really that important to the NYC area? A new survey about how great Wegmans is?;) kidding!
 
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