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"RW Opinion: Rethinking AM’s future"

Radio World has hardly "turned against Ibiquity" (as a subscriber rather than someone who simply catches an article now and then online, I know!), They have however reversed their position on the ill-conceived AM system. GOOD!

We need a digital mode for AM stations. Ibiquity's "HD" system probably ain't it. You'll notice they didn't suggest abandoning HD, they suggested that Ibiquity form an alliance with Digital Radio Mondiale to solve the interference and coverage issues.
 
Mike Walker said:
Radio World has hardly "turned against Ibiquity" (as a subscriber rather than someone who simply catches an article now and then online, I know!), They have however reversed their position on the ill-conceived AM system. GOOD!

We need a digital mode for AM stations. Ibiquity's "HD" system probably ain't it. You'll notice they didn't suggest abandoning HD, they suggested that Ibiquity form an alliance with Digital Radio Mondiale to solve the interference and coverage issues.

Here's your post from the "other" site, to quote:

"It's akin to what's happening with the war in Iraq, as one former "cheerleader" of the cause after another changes their tune. One of the biggest cheerleaders of all things HD (and Ibiquity), Radio World Magazine, has, in an editorial in the latest issue, changed their mind about AM HD. They cite coverage issues (reports of people being able to see the damn tower(s), but not receive the signal), numerous stations which have abruptly stopped transmitting (AM) HD because of interference reports from neighboring stations, and studies which indicate that AM HD will turn the lucrative "cash cow" signals of 50kw flamethrower outlets owned by Clear Channel, Infinity, etc. into cash poor calves...with signals which are a shadow of their former selves. This last point, plus the fact that there is still no nighttime authorization for AM HD, is what Radio World believes is stalling adoption of AM HD even by the large broadcasters who have championed it. While lower power, local AM stations are in trouble, big-signal 50kw am outlets are anything but. They often dominate their markets, with more audience share and cash-flow than any fm music station. The idea of reducing coverage area (with increased interference...which is now no longer theory, but established in practice by several big-signal stations which have ceased HD operation) in order to present TALK programming in "HD" is quite nauseating to station owners. For these reasons, Radio World now urges Ibiquity to form an alliance with DRM (Digital Radio Mondiale), and rethink AM HD...choosing a system that's both more robust, AND causes less interference. Talk about an about face! (Observatons on the state of AM HD are those of Radio World, which I have paraphrased, not quoted...I don't have the editorial page in front of me. These are not my own opinions, as I still haven't heard AM HD.)"


What would you call it ? :D
 
Mike is correct—"digital" is NOT the problem... Let the consumer decide. On FM, I have seen little benefit—but little problem. FM IBOC will face the harsh judgment of the marketplace—and portably lose due to its anemic coverage, unimpressive audio quality, and very poor marketing of receivers. There simply are better alternatives available to the consumer.

Over on the AM band—a very different paradigm is revealed... One of NO broad-based recognition of an audio quality benefit offset by an interference potential that would have been deemed “illegal” several decades ago when greater minds managed the AM resource at the FCC.

Right from the “git-go”, I was an L-band Eureka proponent... Now please choose your band... VHF TV channel 5 and 6, 26 or 45mHz—FINE—but start the lobby to acquire the real estate—and do it quick... Time is running out for “digital radio”! ANY “digital band” will require a reconciliation regarding lower-powered FM and AM daytime signals—and the current “mindset” of “big radio” has been against that for obvious shameless and self-promoting reasons. In a morose way—they have been diagnosed with the “Big C”—but refuse to take the chemo... So be it—they will eventually pay the ultimate price in the consumer (and listener) marketplace.

I remain “copasetic” in regards to FM HD... I own NO receiver—and that’s significant considering my general love for “new tech” and a willingness to spring for a new radio! BTW—I have “sprung” for new radios—just NOT “HD radios”. Here’s the way I currently see it—HD on FM is defective—HD on AM is (even more) defective and destructive—and should be illegal! If this is a malady—can ANYONE help me with cognizant info that could correct my state of mind?
 
Mike Walker said:
Radio World has hardly "turned against Ibiquity" (as a subscriber rather than someone who simply catches an article now and then online, I know!), They have however reversed their position on the ill-conceived AM system. GOOD!

We need a digital mode for AM stations. Ibiquity's "HD" system probably ain't it. You'll notice they didn't suggest abandoning HD, they suggested that Ibiquity form an alliance with Digital Radio Mondiale to solve the interference and coverage issues.

At least DRM, at its minimum, promises to stay within the 10 kHz bandwidth unlike IBOC.

From the DRM site:

Services:

9/10 kHz rf channel

Applicable
bands:

LF, MF, HF
LF: wide area coverage
MF: local & wide area coverage
HF: wide area coverage

Comments:

26 MHz special: local coverage
Audio quality: "mono FM" & partial stereo ("parametric");
Up to 4 multiplexed speech channels

Also World DMB (formerly DAB) is partnering with the DRM Consortium to create a multi-standard radio to accommodate several digital technologies.

If iBiquity is smart they'll join this partnership.

db
 
By the way, Radio World has not been overly biased about HD radio. They have frequently questioned its weak points, as well as praised its strong points. I call that "balanced." Perhaps you are confusing them with "Radio" Magazine, which traditionally is very biased towards HD and large corporate radio.

A couple of posts up, Hippo has it right. FM works, at least, sort of. AM is a disaster waiting for a place to happen. We need to make the digital transition in new spectrum. The price is too great to not do otherwise. Hippo's is a good assessment of the situation.
 
In AM there's no place to "hide" anything.

I am happy to see this is becoming more and more apparent to more and more people.

The DRM system would, as I understand, require a new band or present its modulation as a 10kc-wide digihash sound on existing MW AM.

It would be an all-or-nothing conversion for the station, unless a new band is allocated. They must risk alienating and losing listeners and advertisers if they go all digital. They must choose to let listeners vote to listen to them by buying the new tech, as fans somewhat followed Stern to sattelite.

I would favor continuing AM MW analog only and DRM OR Ibiquity digital-only in a new band, but require maintaining existing
services as a requirement for allocation and license renewal within the new band, whether simulcasting or different programming.

I would quickly buy a converter for home and cars for a new band with new content, or even simulcasts as a totally digital mode
could easily use higher power for coverage, thus requiring less data redundancy and supporting higher throughput;
it could sound better than the best FM we've ever heard. In the same breath I must say I would always expect computer-level reliablity,
which is to say far more failure modes at both ends, due to complexity. This is why the "heritage" mode services must continue.

As regards AM's future,

" If we have established that it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we should give the critter all full due respect and consideration that it is, in fact, a duck, and any imaginations we may have to alternative interpretations of what the animal might be are misguided."

AM MW should be maintained forever in the same way that steel and brick, now that they are available widely, are taken for granted, but an indispensible part of modern infrastructure, however low-tech they may be considered.
 
Chuck said:
By the way, Radio World has not been overly biased about HD radio. They have frequently questioned its weak points, as well as praised its strong points. I call that "balanced." Perhaps you are confusing them with "Radio" Magazine, which traditionally is very biased towards HD and large corporate radio.

A couple of posts up, Hippo has it right. FM works, at least, sort of. AM is a disaster waiting for a place to happen. We need to make the digital transition in new spectrum. The price is too great to not do otherwise. Hippo's is a good assessment of the situation.

I believe, the UK is struggling with DRM on their new digital band, and it looks like there is no interest in Canada, either (Canada is installing Satellite Radio in new vehicles, instead); given that, there is no reason to believe there would be any interest in the US - this would, as with HD Radio, require the purchase of new receivers, which isn't going to happen.
 
I've got to disagree, Chuck. Editorially Radio World has been EXTREMELY "Pro all things HD". To their credit, they've continued to present (without comment) opposing viewpoints. But their editorials...the official "opinion" of the RW crew, has been pretty much unanimously pro-HD, until this most recent editorial.

It may be true that there's "no place to hide anything" on AM. Here's an idea...new technology doesn't necessarily HAVE to be digital! There was a proven technique in the 80s (with several public demonstrations) called "NFR" (noise free radio) which frequency modulated the am carrier (at a VERY low rate). AM detectors were blind (deaf) to the frequency modulation...it was so small they didn't even "know it was there". (Seems like it was 100hz? Maybe less...don't remember exactly, it's been TWENTY YEARS). In the "NFR" (noise free radio), the fm signal went through a multiplier, so the carrier deviation could be detected by the radio's regular fm detector. Voila...noise free fm on the am band, with no digital "nasties". Yes, it was mono. But still, it was more "noise-free" than traditional fm, BECAUSE it was mono.

An idea from the past worth considering! I'd wager there might even be a way to bring stereo to this system. Worth a look-see.

I love digital technology. Usually it's a more efficient use of spectrum, and brings benefits such as noise-free operation. But let's not go so digital-crazy that we reject out of hand analog techniques that actually work better!
 
Digital is an inferior technology - just look at digital cell phones, with calls dropping out, as digital is all-or-nothing; at least with analog, there is fading, but the signal is still there. And look what is happening with IBOC, trying to squeeze too much into the spectrum, causing adjacent-channel interference. If it ain't broken, don't fix it !
 
"Digital is an inferior technology"....says the man advocating wi-fi radio, and posting his opinion on the internet. Hmmmm. (Wait I forgot...the internet isn't "digital", it's a series of tubes. Sorry!)

Digital is neither better, nor worse on the whole. It's simply different. There are pluses and minuses to both technologies.

If all fm analog were received under optimum circumstances (high-end tuner, roof ariel, multipath free conditions, etc.) we all know that it could sound as good as, or better than digital. But under the actual situations people listen...in cars, on table radios, on stereos with the wire antenna tossed behind the equipment rack, digital both sounds better, and offers more programming choices.

As for robustness and coverage in emergencies, yes...analog wins that contest. Which is why we shouldn't turn off analog. It will likely continue to be more robust, and receivable on dirt-cheap radios. So it's not either/or. It's BOTH! And analog will still be needed as a "fallback" for situations where digital fails temporarily.

The thing is that I, and others who actually listen to HD radio, have discovered not only that there are situations where digital fails while analog works, but also there are many situations where the reverse is true...analog is severely compromised, but digital is pristine.

"Digital is inferior technology", huh? That's probably why our HDTV system looks so much worse than Japan's older, analog system. Wait...IT DOESN'T! Ours is pristine and noise free. Theirs, more than a thousand lines of snowy pics, with ghosting and all the other analog nasties.
 
It's all about bitrates.

Digital is inferior technology eh?

And you wonder why people think you're ideas are crazy.

Clouseau
 
Mike Walker said:
"Digital is an inferior technology"....says the man advocating wi-fi radio, and posting his opinion on the internet. Hmmmm. (Wait I forgot...the internet isn't "digital", it's a series of tubes. Sorry!)

Digital is neither better, nor worse on the whole. It's simply different. There are pluses and minuses to both technologies.

Digital is worse, because it is all-or-nothing; anytime an original analog signal is sampled, at a specific bitrate, then artificially reproduced, it will never have the quality/robustness of the original analog signal.
 
Mike Walker said:
I've got to disagree, Chuck. Editorially Radio World has been EXTREMELY "Pro all things HD". To their credit, they've continued to present (without comment) opposing viewpoints. But their editorials...the official "opinion" of the RW crew, has been pretty much unanimously pro-HD, until this most recent editorial.

Maybe my memory is longer than yours. Before HD's official launch, RW had several cautionary articles that asked if this wes really a good idea. Skip Pizzi had several articles to that effect. In any case, I'd call them more balanced than other publications. Compared to "Radio" they seem like real "nay-sayers." "Radio" Magazine has been the real Pom-Pom Girls for Ibiquity. It is true that recently Radio World seems to have accepted HD's presence and they are simply coping with what you do with it. I think lots of us are in that boat.

Mike Walker said:
I love digital technology. Usually it's a more efficient use of spectrum, and brings benefits such as noise-free operation. But let's not go so digital-crazy that we reject out of hand analog techniques that actually work better!

I totally agree. Some things just don't need fixing.
 
OKCRadioGuy said:
The narrow-banded FM overlayed on AM IS the best idea. Too bad NO ONE will hear of it. Everyone wants digital even if it's worse.

And as also mentioned by Mike Walker, the narrowband FM-on AM is about the only thing that can be hidden on AM.

It can be done by complex methods, or as simply as providing limited interaction between audio and RF power supplies.
It is officially considered as "sloppy operation" of an AM, but when properly done, limited to a few hundred Hz maximum, does not
degrade the AM detection, and the FM detection is every bit like the FM we are accustomed to in 88-108 MHz.

I know how good it sounds because I designed my pirate transmitter in 1991 to do this on 7.415 Mhz.
With 100 watts it was heard over most of the US, and was declared as the highest audio quality ever heard on a shortwave pirate
by a reviewer who published a yearly book on the subject. I wish I could remember his name.....

And "everyone wants digital even if it's worse" is a fair generalization.
People don't know what they want anymore. It's all done for them.
Marketing specialists decide what will be sold, and literally what people will be sold "to want".
This is how business works.
Knowing for yourself exactly what you want is too much work for the majority of people.
They are far too distracted and have always relied on the marketplace to do the choosing for them.
If the buzzword is digital, then everything has to be digital. Or Hi-Def, or "extreme".
Even if it fits like a shoe on the wrong foot.

Digital will always be attempting, with ever-higher bitrates, to approach the resolution that is available in continuous-sampled analog.
To the extent it is enough samples to approximate real audio, it suceeds. This is a very subjective determination.
I cannot yet see that the complexity justifies the disappointing results, and there is far less standardization than there ever was
for example in consumer phonograph methods, formats, and equalization curves.

And the AM modulation standard is compatible throughout EVERY AM receiver ever built, literally tens of thousands of circuit designs, from
simple diode juctions at the base of the tower, crystal sets, and one tube regens to the most complex reference monitors.
This 80-plus year old standard should not be disregarded lightly.
The regenerative receivers of the 20s-30s were an incompatible RECEIVER type that actually transmitted if over-driven as was common, and
created squeals, howls and moans in your neighbor's radio, depending on how off-frequency your tuning was.
They became derisively known as "bloopers".

We have yet to coin the best word for the current incompatible (AM) transmitting mode.
I notice it is incompatible with all but communications grade receivers with intentionally narrowed bandwidths.
And it is only available by purchasing the technology from one manufacturer.
How different it is from the days when the FCC mandated a "Patent Pool" to standardize design of radios and advance the medium!
 
Tom Wells said:
OKCRadioGuy said:
The narrow-banded FM overlayed on AM IS the best idea. Too bad NO ONE will hear of it. Everyone wants digital even if it's worse.

And as also mentioned by Mike Walker, the narrowband FM-on AM is about the only thing that can be hidden on AM.

It can be done by complex methods, or as simply as providing limited interaction between audio and RF power supplies.
It is officially considered as "sloppy operation" of an AM, but when properly done, limited to a few hundred Hz maximum, does not
degrade the AM detection, and the FM detection is every bit like the FM we are accustomed to in 88-108 MHz.

I know how good it sounds because I designed my pirate transmitter in 1991 to do this on 7.415 Mhz.
With 100 watts it was heard over most of the US, and was declared as the highest audio quality ever heard on a shortwave pirate
by a reviewer who published a yearly book on the subject. I wish I could remember his name.....

And "everyone wants digital even if it's worse" is a fair generalization.
People don't know what they want anymore. It's all done for them.
Marketing specialists decide what will be sold, and literally what people will be sold "to want".
This is how business works.
Knowing for yourself exactly what you want is too much work for the majority of people.
They are far too distracted and have always relied on the marketplace to do the choosing for them.
If the buzzword is digital, then everything has to be digital. Or Hi-Def, or "extreme".
Even if it fits like a shoe on the wrong foot.

Digital will always be attempting, with ever-higher bitrates, to approach the resolution that is available in continuous-sampled analog.
To the extent it is enough samples to approximate real audio, it suceeds. This is a very subjective determination.

This is a very well written and accurate assessment of reality. I'm actually envious I didn't write it.

I cannot yet see that the complexity justifies the disappointing results, and there is far less standardization than there ever was
for example in consumer phonograph methods, formats, and equalization curves.

I agree with this to a point. I think there IS some justification, such as in the case of CD's. I don't think that "Digital is better" as much as "Unlimited Bandwidth Digital" is better. Anyone who ever owned a Bag Phone gets this joke. (Can you imagine todays tower structure with an analog bagphone. Ayy, Chihuahuas, that would be great.)
And the AM modulation standard is compatible throughout EVERY AM receiver ever built, literally tens of thousands of circuit designs, from
simple diode juctions at the base of the tower, crystal sets, and one tube regens to the most complex reference monitors.
This 80-plus year old standard should not be disregarded lightly.

Totally 1000% agree

The regenerative receivers of the 20s-30s were an incompatible RECEIVER type that actually transmitted if over-driven as was common, and
created squeals, howls and moans in your neighbor's radio, depending on how off-frequency your tuning was.
They became derisively known as "bloopers".

We have yet to coin the best word for the current incompatible (AM) transmitting mode.
I notice it is incompatible with all but communications grade receivers with intentionally narrowed bandwidths.
And it is only available by purchasing the technology from one manufacturer.
How different it is from the days when the FCC mandated a "Patent Pool" to standardize design of radios and advance the medium!

You illustrate great points of why AM IB"A"C won't work. Remember there is NO first adjacent protection for AM at night. That's called "INTERFERENCE". Not good.

Clouseau
 
Hybrid, Narrow Band FM modulation, behind a normally modulated AM station on the broadcast band, was tried on an experimental medium wave station, (I believe in the 1970's) with very disappointing results.
The NBFM had poor fidelity, poor signal to noise ratio, poor coverage, no stereo, and in the final engineering analysis, was worse then the AM signal.
 
Actually in the 80s narrowband fm (VERY narrow) was used successfully (it was called "NFR" and even patented, as I recall...the patent applying to a "multiplying" technique used to MULTIPLY the narrowband modulation so that it was wideband, and detectable by the regular FM detector as plain-jane FM Mono).

The audio quality was the same as FM mono. Radio World must have info in their archives somewhere...I'm relying on my grey matter from nearly 20 years ago...but I remember what I remember!
 
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