It is probably because of Cable TV, but has anyone noticed how much Kidvid Cartoons are disappearing from broadcast TV on its weekday schedule. There aren't any Cartoons on any of the UHF Channels,31, 40, or 58 while in the afternoons only 58 has Cartoons. I am 43 years old and remember Capn' Mitch on Channel 40 and the huge kidvid blocks on the then KRBK Channel 31.I sure feel sorry for Kids whose parents don't have Satellite or Cable TV.
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Sacramento Kidvid Cartoons disappearing from Broadcast TV
- Thread starter Floyd
- Start date
> It is probably because of Cable TV, but has anyone noticed
> how much Kidvid Cartoons are disappearing from broadcast TV
> on its weekday schedule. There aren't any Cartoons on any of
> the UHF Channels,31, 40, or 58 while in the afternoons only
> 58 has Cartoons. I am 43 years old and remember Capn' Mitch
> on Channel 40 and the huge kidvid blocks on the then KRBK
> Channel 31.I sure feel sorry for Kids whose parents don't
> have Satellite or Cable TV.
>
Kids programs are a hard sell to most advertisers and they often get mediocre (or poor) ratings.<P ID="signature">______________
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.stationindex.com/>TV Station List</a></P>
> how much Kidvid Cartoons are disappearing from broadcast TV
> on its weekday schedule. There aren't any Cartoons on any of
> the UHF Channels,31, 40, or 58 while in the afternoons only
> 58 has Cartoons. I am 43 years old and remember Capn' Mitch
> on Channel 40 and the huge kidvid blocks on the then KRBK
> Channel 31.I sure feel sorry for Kids whose parents don't
> have Satellite or Cable TV.
>
Kids programs are a hard sell to most advertisers and they often get mediocre (or poor) ratings.<P ID="signature">______________
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.stationindex.com/>TV Station List</a></P>
> > The kids programming with local hosts who did fun stuff between cartoons have been gone for close to 40 years. I grew up in LA with "Skipper Frank," "Engineer Bill," "Sheriff John" and a bunch of others- mostly on the independent channels. But they had all disappeared from TV by the late 1960s. Too expensive I guess. Sheriff John was a staff announcer at KTTV, so he managed to stick around a bit longer...early 70s maybe. Footnote: Paul Winchell just passed away (his show was synicated by MetroMedia), and I've noticed that Tom Hatten (played Popeye cartoons on KTLA) is still around, and reports entertainment news on KNX 1070. As for the Sat morning network cartoons - CBS (Viacom) owns the Nickolodeon Networks, NBC owns the Discovery Channels, including Discovery Kids, and Disney owns ABC. There are more kids shows than ever before. Kids are only left out if their parents can't get cable, and won't spend money for "the Dish."
It is probably because of Cable TV, but has anyone noticed
>
> > how much Kidvid Cartoons are disappearing from broadcast
> TV
> > on its weekday schedule. There aren't any Cartoons on any
> of
> > the UHF Channels,31, 40, or 58 while in the afternoons
> only
> > 58 has Cartoons. I am 43 years old and remember Capn'
> Mitch
> > on Channel 40 and the huge kidvid blocks on the then KRBK
> > Channel 31.I sure feel sorry for Kids whose parents don't
> > have Satellite or Cable TV.
> >
>
> Kids programs are a hard sell to most advertisers and they
> often get mediocre (or poor) ratings.
>
It is probably because of Cable TV, but has anyone noticed
>
> > how much Kidvid Cartoons are disappearing from broadcast
> TV
> > on its weekday schedule. There aren't any Cartoons on any
> of
> > the UHF Channels,31, 40, or 58 while in the afternoons
> only
> > 58 has Cartoons. I am 43 years old and remember Capn'
> Mitch
> > on Channel 40 and the huge kidvid blocks on the then KRBK
> > Channel 31.I sure feel sorry for Kids whose parents don't
> > have Satellite or Cable TV.
> >
>
> Kids programs are a hard sell to most advertisers and they
> often get mediocre (or poor) ratings.
>
> It is probably because of Cable TV,
About half the reason. Still Basic Cable had Nickelodeon, Disney, Cartoon network, etc since the early 90's (Nick & Disney even before). Until about 1998 you had in most Top 50 markets, 2 local stations running cartoons from like 6-9 AM and 2:30 to 5 PM Weekdays. The reason was the ammount of advertising on kids shows that could be run was cut in half in 1996 and effective by 1999. At that point ststions were no longer to make enough of a profit on kids shows to justify them. I believe there is a 15 minute limit (not sure exactly how much)per hour on how much advertising a kids show could have. Before 1996 it was closer to 20 minutes an hour. Also shows could no longer air ads on products centered around the show itself. Like GI Goe cartoons cannot advertise GI Joe action figures.
> but has anyone noticed how much Kidvid Cartoons are disappearing from > broadcast TV on its weekday schedule.
I have noticed this in many martkets as well.
> There aren't any Cartoons on any of
> the UHF Channels,31, 40, or 58 while in the afternoons only
> 58 has Cartoons. I am 43 years old and remember Capn' Mitch
> on Channel 40 and the huge kidvid blocks on the then KRBK
> Channel 31.I sure feel sorry for Kids whose parents don't
> have Satellite or Cable TV.
Here is what I noticed in the 2 following markets
New York City
5 WNYW Fox
1996 Weekdays 2-5 PM
1998 Weekdays 2:30-5 PM
2000 Weekdays 2-4 PM
Fall 2001 - NONE
9 WWOR UPN
1997 7-9 AM
1998 6:30-9 AM
1999 7-9AM
2000 7-9 AM
Fall 2001 7-9 AM; 2-4 PM
since 2002 7-9 AM
11 WPIX
1996 5-9 AM;2-5:30 PM
1997 5-9 AM; 2-5 PM
1998 6-9 AM; 2-5 PM
1999 7-9 AM; 2:30-5 PM
2000 2:30-5 PM
2002 to now 3-5 PM
Los Angeles
1994
5 KTLA (WB)- None
9 KCAL 6-9 AM; 2-5 PM
11 KTTV Fox 2-5 PM
13 KCOP UPN 6-9 AM
1995
5 KTLA (WB)- 3-4 PM
9 KCAL 6-9 AM; 2-5 PM
11 KTTV Fox 2-5 PM
13 KCOP UPN 6-9 AM
1996
5 KTLA (WB)- 3-4 PM
9 KCAL 7-9 AM; 3-5 PM
11 KTTV Fox 2-5 PM
13 KCOP UPN 6-9 AM
1997
5 KTLA (WB)- 2-5 PM
9 KCAL 7-9 AM; 3-5 PM
11 KTTV Fox 2-5 PM
13 KCOP UPN 6-9 AM
1998
5 KTLA (WB)- 2-5 PM
9 KCAL 7-9 AM
11 KTTV Fox 2-5 PM
13 KCOP UPN 6-9 AM
1999
5 KTLA (WB)- 2-5 PM
9 KCAL NONE
11 KTTV Fox 2-5 PM
13 KCOP UPN 6-9 AM
2000
5 KTLA (WB)- 2-5 PM
9 KCAL NONE
11 KTTV Fox 2-4 PM
13 KCOP UPN 7-9 AM
2001
5 KTLA (WB)- 2-5 PM
9 KCAL NONE
11 KTTV Fox none
13 KCOP UPN 7-9 AM 3-5 PM
2002-present
5 KTLA (WB)- 3-5 PM
9 KCAL NONE
11 KTTV Fox none
13 KCOP UPN 7-9 AM
At one time Fox, UPN, and WB all had weekday blocks but due to advertising rules they found it tough to make a profit on kids shows. Fox ended weekday kids in January 2002. UPN ended in September 2003. WB still has a weekday kids block but they are considering ending as well.
About half the reason. Still Basic Cable had Nickelodeon, Disney, Cartoon network, etc since the early 90's (Nick & Disney even before). Until about 1998 you had in most Top 50 markets, 2 local stations running cartoons from like 6-9 AM and 2:30 to 5 PM Weekdays. The reason was the ammount of advertising on kids shows that could be run was cut in half in 1996 and effective by 1999. At that point ststions were no longer to make enough of a profit on kids shows to justify them. I believe there is a 15 minute limit (not sure exactly how much)per hour on how much advertising a kids show could have. Before 1996 it was closer to 20 minutes an hour. Also shows could no longer air ads on products centered around the show itself. Like GI Goe cartoons cannot advertise GI Joe action figures.
> but has anyone noticed how much Kidvid Cartoons are disappearing from > broadcast TV on its weekday schedule.
I have noticed this in many martkets as well.
> There aren't any Cartoons on any of
> the UHF Channels,31, 40, or 58 while in the afternoons only
> 58 has Cartoons. I am 43 years old and remember Capn' Mitch
> on Channel 40 and the huge kidvid blocks on the then KRBK
> Channel 31.I sure feel sorry for Kids whose parents don't
> have Satellite or Cable TV.
Here is what I noticed in the 2 following markets
New York City
5 WNYW Fox
1996 Weekdays 2-5 PM
1998 Weekdays 2:30-5 PM
2000 Weekdays 2-4 PM
Fall 2001 - NONE
9 WWOR UPN
1997 7-9 AM
1998 6:30-9 AM
1999 7-9AM
2000 7-9 AM
Fall 2001 7-9 AM; 2-4 PM
since 2002 7-9 AM
11 WPIX
1996 5-9 AM;2-5:30 PM
1997 5-9 AM; 2-5 PM
1998 6-9 AM; 2-5 PM
1999 7-9 AM; 2:30-5 PM
2000 2:30-5 PM
2002 to now 3-5 PM
Los Angeles
1994
5 KTLA (WB)- None
9 KCAL 6-9 AM; 2-5 PM
11 KTTV Fox 2-5 PM
13 KCOP UPN 6-9 AM
1995
5 KTLA (WB)- 3-4 PM
9 KCAL 6-9 AM; 2-5 PM
11 KTTV Fox 2-5 PM
13 KCOP UPN 6-9 AM
1996
5 KTLA (WB)- 3-4 PM
9 KCAL 7-9 AM; 3-5 PM
11 KTTV Fox 2-5 PM
13 KCOP UPN 6-9 AM
1997
5 KTLA (WB)- 2-5 PM
9 KCAL 7-9 AM; 3-5 PM
11 KTTV Fox 2-5 PM
13 KCOP UPN 6-9 AM
1998
5 KTLA (WB)- 2-5 PM
9 KCAL 7-9 AM
11 KTTV Fox 2-5 PM
13 KCOP UPN 6-9 AM
1999
5 KTLA (WB)- 2-5 PM
9 KCAL NONE
11 KTTV Fox 2-5 PM
13 KCOP UPN 6-9 AM
2000
5 KTLA (WB)- 2-5 PM
9 KCAL NONE
11 KTTV Fox 2-4 PM
13 KCOP UPN 7-9 AM
2001
5 KTLA (WB)- 2-5 PM
9 KCAL NONE
11 KTTV Fox none
13 KCOP UPN 7-9 AM 3-5 PM
2002-present
5 KTLA (WB)- 3-5 PM
9 KCAL NONE
11 KTTV Fox none
13 KCOP UPN 7-9 AM
At one time Fox, UPN, and WB all had weekday blocks but due to advertising rules they found it tough to make a profit on kids shows. Fox ended weekday kids in January 2002. UPN ended in September 2003. WB still has a weekday kids block but they are considering ending as well.
>
> At one time Fox, UPN, and WB all had weekday blocks but due
> to advertising rules they found it tough to make a profit on
> kids shows. Fox ended weekday kids in January 2002. UPN
> ended in September 2003. WB still has a weekday kids block
> but they are considering ending as well.
>
WB is ending Weekday cartoons effective December 31, 2005....
Bill H.
> At one time Fox, UPN, and WB all had weekday blocks but due
> to advertising rules they found it tough to make a profit on
> kids shows. Fox ended weekday kids in January 2002. UPN
> ended in September 2003. WB still has a weekday kids block
> but they are considering ending as well.
>
WB is ending Weekday cartoons effective December 31, 2005....
Bill H.
T
Tom_Desmond
Guest
> The reason was the ammount of
> advertising on kids shows that could be run was cut in half
> in 1996 and effective by 1999. At that point ststions were
> no longer to make enough of a profit on kids shows to
> justify them. I believe there is a 15 minute limit (not sure
> exactly how much)per hour on how much advertising a kids
> show could have. Before 1996 it was closer to 20 minutes an
> hour.
This isn't really accurate. The limits that were placed on children's TV advertising have been in effect since the early nineties -- and apparently kids programming continued to be profitable on broadcast TV for quite a few years after those limits went into effect, considering that it has only been since 1999 or so that kids shows have really started leaving broadcast TV. FYI, the limits are 12 minutes/hour on weekdays, 10.5 minutes/hour on weekends -- and they apply to both broadcast and cable TV channels.
So why have kids shows disappeared from broadcast TV?
The success of Nick and Cartoon Network probably really is the biggest factor -- by diluting the kids audience across more channels, it means that the kids programs on broadcast stations no longer get the ratings that they used to earn. Combined lower ratings with the fact that advertisers have always paid a lower CPM (cost per thousand viewers) for children versus adult audiences, and kids TV just dropped below the profitability threshold for a lot of broadcast stations.
Meanwhile, many of the larger market Fox affiliates were enjoying success with morning news programs, which were able to earn good ratings and commanded higher CPMs from advertisers. While the Fox stations that were initially doing these morning news shows were initially the former New World stations that had come over from other networks and had no interest in running kids shows on weekdays, other Fox stations started following. In turn, stations that had substantial news departments also don't like being viewed as their market's "kids stations", and wanted to cut back on kids programming in other time slots.
As the amount of kids programming on broadcast TV decreased, advertisers trying to reach children pretty much quit buying advertising on local stations during kids programming. This meant that even if a kids block was profitable for the national network, their local stations would have trouble selling time during the local breaks. Which is apparently a major reason why the WB will be dropping its weekday block in January -- even though the WB claims the block is marginally profitable for the network, it isn't at all profitable for their affiliates. The affiliates just can't sell advertising during these shows. Even if the ratings for the replacement programming are lower than for the current kids programming, the affiliates will still make more money.
Unless someone knows how to interest advertisers in buying time during kids shows on local stations, it seems like the weekday kids show blocks are pretty much a thing of the past.
> advertising on kids shows that could be run was cut in half
> in 1996 and effective by 1999. At that point ststions were
> no longer to make enough of a profit on kids shows to
> justify them. I believe there is a 15 minute limit (not sure
> exactly how much)per hour on how much advertising a kids
> show could have. Before 1996 it was closer to 20 minutes an
> hour.
This isn't really accurate. The limits that were placed on children's TV advertising have been in effect since the early nineties -- and apparently kids programming continued to be profitable on broadcast TV for quite a few years after those limits went into effect, considering that it has only been since 1999 or so that kids shows have really started leaving broadcast TV. FYI, the limits are 12 minutes/hour on weekdays, 10.5 minutes/hour on weekends -- and they apply to both broadcast and cable TV channels.
So why have kids shows disappeared from broadcast TV?
The success of Nick and Cartoon Network probably really is the biggest factor -- by diluting the kids audience across more channels, it means that the kids programs on broadcast stations no longer get the ratings that they used to earn. Combined lower ratings with the fact that advertisers have always paid a lower CPM (cost per thousand viewers) for children versus adult audiences, and kids TV just dropped below the profitability threshold for a lot of broadcast stations.
Meanwhile, many of the larger market Fox affiliates were enjoying success with morning news programs, which were able to earn good ratings and commanded higher CPMs from advertisers. While the Fox stations that were initially doing these morning news shows were initially the former New World stations that had come over from other networks and had no interest in running kids shows on weekdays, other Fox stations started following. In turn, stations that had substantial news departments also don't like being viewed as their market's "kids stations", and wanted to cut back on kids programming in other time slots.
As the amount of kids programming on broadcast TV decreased, advertisers trying to reach children pretty much quit buying advertising on local stations during kids programming. This meant that even if a kids block was profitable for the national network, their local stations would have trouble selling time during the local breaks. Which is apparently a major reason why the WB will be dropping its weekday block in January -- even though the WB claims the block is marginally profitable for the network, it isn't at all profitable for their affiliates. The affiliates just can't sell advertising during these shows. Even if the ratings for the replacement programming are lower than for the current kids programming, the affiliates will still make more money.
Unless someone knows how to interest advertisers in buying time during kids shows on local stations, it seems like the weekday kids show blocks are pretty much a thing of the past.
I completely agree with your entire post, but...
> ...While the Fox stations that were initially doing these morning news shows were initially the former New World stations that had come over from other networks and had no interest in running kids shows on weekdays, other Fox stations started following. In turn, stations that had substantial news departments also don't like being viewed as their market's "kids stations", and wanted to cut back on kids programming in other time slots. >
The Fox O&Os, first in New York (in 1988), and later in Washington, Los Angeles, and Chicago, launched morning news shows way before the New World stations joined the network.<P ID="signature">______________
"Know your role and shut your mouth!!" -- The Rock</P>
> ...While the Fox stations that were initially doing these morning news shows were initially the former New World stations that had come over from other networks and had no interest in running kids shows on weekdays, other Fox stations started following. In turn, stations that had substantial news departments also don't like being viewed as their market's "kids stations", and wanted to cut back on kids programming in other time slots. >
The Fox O&Os, first in New York (in 1988), and later in Washington, Los Angeles, and Chicago, launched morning news shows way before the New World stations joined the network.<P ID="signature">______________
"Know your role and shut your mouth!!" -- The Rock</P>
> The limits that were placed on
> children's TV advertising have been in effect since the
> early nineties --
Actually it was part of the Telcom act of 1996. So it was the late 90's. In the Telcom Act it did indeed loosen radio restrictions in ownership but a whole section was about Children's TV.
The Kids TV ruling obligated ALL TV Stations to provide 3 hours a week of educational Children's shows. As a result ABC, NBC, and CBS moved in a more educational direction on their Saturday Morning shows. This took effect late in 1996. This is where the 12 minutes per hour weekday advertising rules went into effect down from the standard 21 minutes per hour allowed on other programming (prior to 1996 Kids shows as well). Also it was ruled that cartoons were no longer to be tied to a toy and based on it in order to run ads on it.
> and apparently kids programming continued
> to be profitable on broadcast TV for quite a few years after
> those limits went into effect,
A few years...sort of...will explain why below.
> been since 1999 or so that kids shows have really started
> leaving broadcast TV. FYI, the limits are 12 minutes/hour
> on weekdays, 10.5 minutes/hour on weekends -- and they apply
> to both broadcast and cable TV channels.
It started gradually in 1998 actually with syndicated shows.
> So why have kids shows disappeared from broadcast TV?
> The success of Nick and Cartoon Network probably really is
> the biggest factor -- by diluting the kids audience across
> more channels, it means that the kids programs on broadcast
> stations no longer get the ratings that they used to earn.
> Combined lower ratings with the fact that advertisers have
> always paid a lower CPM (cost per thousand viewers) for
> children versus adult audiences, and kids TV just dropped
> below the profitability threshold for a lot of broadcast
> stations.
These two channels existed years before. Nick was in its similar form since the mid 80's and Cartoon Network since 1993 or 94.
> Meanwhile, many of the larger market Fox affiliates were
> enjoying success with morning news programs, which were able
> to earn good ratings and commanded higher CPMs from
> advertisers. While the Fox stations that were initially
> doing these morning news shows were initially the former New
> World stations that had come over from other networks and
> had no interest in running kids shows on weekdays, other Fox
> stations started following. In turn, stations that had
> substantial news departments also don't like being viewed as
> their market's "kids stations", and wanted to cut back on
> kids programming in other time slots.
Actually as mentioned in the post below half the pre New World Fox O & O's already had newscasts...Fox 5 WNYW New York began Good Day New York in August 1988 from 7-9 AM, Fox 5 WTTG Washington DC began Fox 5 Morning News in 1990. Fox 32 WFLD Chicago began "Fox Thing In The Morning" in 1993. Fox 11 KTTV began Good Day LA in 1991. Fox 26 KRIV Houston began a morning News show BY 1994.
So Fox was indeed planning to move their O & O stations toward news product even prior to New World. Actually a couple New World stations did pick up Fox Kids as did 2 Fox O & O stations that were spun off by New World (Memphis & Greensboro). Greensboro dropped it a year later and it went to WB 20 there.
> As the amount of kids programming on broadcast TV decreased,
> advertisers trying to reach children pretty much quit buying
> advertising on local stations during kids programming. This
> meant that even if a kids block was profitable for the
> national network, their local stations would have trouble
> selling time during the local breaks. Which is apparently a
> major reason why the WB will be dropping its weekday block
> in January -- even though the WB claims the block is
> marginally profitable for the network, it isn't at all
> profitable for their affiliates. The affiliates just can't
> sell advertising during these shows. Even if the ratings
> for the replacement programming are lower than for the
> current kids programming, the affiliates will still make
> more money.
>
> Unless someone knows how to interest advertisers in buying
> time during kids shows on local stations, it seems like the
> weekday kids show blocks are pretty much a thing of the
> past.
>
I have talked with a few people at local WB affiliates as well as the WB Network. They STILL HAVE NOT MADE A FINAL DECISION ON KIDS WB WWEEKDAYS. They told me that yes they MIGHT be ending the Kids WB but an absolute decision wont be made until the Fall. Its divided among affiliates on Kids WB. Some affiliates dont want it while others do. I have been told they are considering running a syndicated block rather than Kids WB. Still they still are keeping options open.
Now another thing not stated. In the past before 1981 all cartoons were sold on a cash basis like any other show. The local station had to sell ad time to make a profit. Local stations were the only way for advertisers to reach kids. So they could sell it. An average Top 30 market had at least one independent station that supported 6 to 8 hours of cartoons a dday on weekday. Network affiliates generally ran lots of kids stuff Saturday mornings. In smaller markets with no independent stations usually there was one (sometimes two) Network affiliate running an hour or two a day on weekdays of kids shows.
Then the number of independent stations grew in the 80's. Alot of stations were not interested in buying alot of kids shows due to cost and ratings. As a result toy companies began making cartoons based on their products. Also other new kids shows were being issued on barter and no cash.
In 1981 Superfriends was issued in barter. Each episode had 5 minutes of inserted commercials from the syndicator leaving 4 minutes of local ad time. Stations would pay no money for the show and would only have to carry the inserted ads to run the show. In 1982 The Program Exchange got syndicated rights from Hanna Barbara for Scooby Doo & The Flintstones. These two shows also had barter ads inserted and stations would not have to pay for the shows.
In 1983 He Man (Group W), Inspector Gadget (DIC), and Plasticman (DIC) were added. In 1984 Heathcliff (DIC), Voltron, and Robotech were added. In 1985 GI Joe, Go Bots, Transformers, New Jetsons (as well as old ones reissued), MASK, She Ra, and Jace were available.
By 1987 there were nearly 2 dozen weekday cartoons available on a barter basis. The old Tom & Jerry, Bugs Bunny, cartoons were about the only cash product. Even Popeye and Woody Woodpecker were issued on barter. Disney got into it with Ducktales in 1987, Chip & Dales in 1989, Tale Spin 1990, Gummi Bears1990, Darkwing Duck 1991, Goof Troop 1992, Bonkers 1993, Aladin 1994, Gargoyels 1995, and in later years Doug, Hercules, and many others. Disney syndicated a 30 minute block 1987-88, hour 1988-90, 2 hours 1990-1999 plus an additional optional hour 1992-1998.
The local stations got kids shows for no cash. They had to run about 3 to 5 minutes of commercials inseretd (barter) and then they could sell the remaining time locally to national and regional advertisers through ad agencies. Cartoons prior to 1996 was a win win situation. Fox got into it in 1990 with 30 minutes, 90 minutes in 1991, 2 and a half hours 1992, 3 hours 1993-99, 2 and a half hours 1999-2000, 2 hours 2000-the end of 2001. WB added an hour kids block in 1995 and in 1997 made it 3 hours, and in 2002 went down to 2 hours. UPN picked up the Disney cartoons in 1999 but ended them in 2003.
In 1996 when stations had nearly 20 minutes per hour to run children's ads they had an easy time selling the remaining time and sold enough time to make money plus the syndicator sold enough time to make the program worth producing. But when ad time was cut to 12 minutes per hour, after the syndicator, Fox, or WB ran their ads and made a profit on it there was only a minute or so per 30 minute show left to sell. In many cases selling this ad was not enough to turn a profit. When in a 30 minute show you are limited to 6 minutes of ad time divided among the syndicator (or WB) and the lcal station its almost impossible mathamatically for the TV station to make a profit even if they paid no cash for the show. If they pay cash for a kids show the 6 minutes of ad time would make it togh to both pay for the show and then profit.
This is what I have been told by programming departments of Fox, UPN, and WB stations when I called to ask why. They simply said they are prohibited by law from selling enough ad time to be able to make a profit. 12 minutes an hour of available ad time is simply not enough time to make money selling ads. Also Cable networks are under less restrictions. Plus their parent companies often own most of the shows they run. And kids have simply been tuning to them more.
So the Cable factor is about half the reason.
> children's TV advertising have been in effect since the
> early nineties --
Actually it was part of the Telcom act of 1996. So it was the late 90's. In the Telcom Act it did indeed loosen radio restrictions in ownership but a whole section was about Children's TV.
The Kids TV ruling obligated ALL TV Stations to provide 3 hours a week of educational Children's shows. As a result ABC, NBC, and CBS moved in a more educational direction on their Saturday Morning shows. This took effect late in 1996. This is where the 12 minutes per hour weekday advertising rules went into effect down from the standard 21 minutes per hour allowed on other programming (prior to 1996 Kids shows as well). Also it was ruled that cartoons were no longer to be tied to a toy and based on it in order to run ads on it.
> and apparently kids programming continued
> to be profitable on broadcast TV for quite a few years after
> those limits went into effect,
A few years...sort of...will explain why below.
> been since 1999 or so that kids shows have really started
> leaving broadcast TV. FYI, the limits are 12 minutes/hour
> on weekdays, 10.5 minutes/hour on weekends -- and they apply
> to both broadcast and cable TV channels.
It started gradually in 1998 actually with syndicated shows.
> So why have kids shows disappeared from broadcast TV?
> The success of Nick and Cartoon Network probably really is
> the biggest factor -- by diluting the kids audience across
> more channels, it means that the kids programs on broadcast
> stations no longer get the ratings that they used to earn.
> Combined lower ratings with the fact that advertisers have
> always paid a lower CPM (cost per thousand viewers) for
> children versus adult audiences, and kids TV just dropped
> below the profitability threshold for a lot of broadcast
> stations.
These two channels existed years before. Nick was in its similar form since the mid 80's and Cartoon Network since 1993 or 94.
> Meanwhile, many of the larger market Fox affiliates were
> enjoying success with morning news programs, which were able
> to earn good ratings and commanded higher CPMs from
> advertisers. While the Fox stations that were initially
> doing these morning news shows were initially the former New
> World stations that had come over from other networks and
> had no interest in running kids shows on weekdays, other Fox
> stations started following. In turn, stations that had
> substantial news departments also don't like being viewed as
> their market's "kids stations", and wanted to cut back on
> kids programming in other time slots.
Actually as mentioned in the post below half the pre New World Fox O & O's already had newscasts...Fox 5 WNYW New York began Good Day New York in August 1988 from 7-9 AM, Fox 5 WTTG Washington DC began Fox 5 Morning News in 1990. Fox 32 WFLD Chicago began "Fox Thing In The Morning" in 1993. Fox 11 KTTV began Good Day LA in 1991. Fox 26 KRIV Houston began a morning News show BY 1994.
So Fox was indeed planning to move their O & O stations toward news product even prior to New World. Actually a couple New World stations did pick up Fox Kids as did 2 Fox O & O stations that were spun off by New World (Memphis & Greensboro). Greensboro dropped it a year later and it went to WB 20 there.
> As the amount of kids programming on broadcast TV decreased,
> advertisers trying to reach children pretty much quit buying
> advertising on local stations during kids programming. This
> meant that even if a kids block was profitable for the
> national network, their local stations would have trouble
> selling time during the local breaks. Which is apparently a
> major reason why the WB will be dropping its weekday block
> in January -- even though the WB claims the block is
> marginally profitable for the network, it isn't at all
> profitable for their affiliates. The affiliates just can't
> sell advertising during these shows. Even if the ratings
> for the replacement programming are lower than for the
> current kids programming, the affiliates will still make
> more money.
>
> Unless someone knows how to interest advertisers in buying
> time during kids shows on local stations, it seems like the
> weekday kids show blocks are pretty much a thing of the
> past.
>
I have talked with a few people at local WB affiliates as well as the WB Network. They STILL HAVE NOT MADE A FINAL DECISION ON KIDS WB WWEEKDAYS. They told me that yes they MIGHT be ending the Kids WB but an absolute decision wont be made until the Fall. Its divided among affiliates on Kids WB. Some affiliates dont want it while others do. I have been told they are considering running a syndicated block rather than Kids WB. Still they still are keeping options open.
Now another thing not stated. In the past before 1981 all cartoons were sold on a cash basis like any other show. The local station had to sell ad time to make a profit. Local stations were the only way for advertisers to reach kids. So they could sell it. An average Top 30 market had at least one independent station that supported 6 to 8 hours of cartoons a dday on weekday. Network affiliates generally ran lots of kids stuff Saturday mornings. In smaller markets with no independent stations usually there was one (sometimes two) Network affiliate running an hour or two a day on weekdays of kids shows.
Then the number of independent stations grew in the 80's. Alot of stations were not interested in buying alot of kids shows due to cost and ratings. As a result toy companies began making cartoons based on their products. Also other new kids shows were being issued on barter and no cash.
In 1981 Superfriends was issued in barter. Each episode had 5 minutes of inserted commercials from the syndicator leaving 4 minutes of local ad time. Stations would pay no money for the show and would only have to carry the inserted ads to run the show. In 1982 The Program Exchange got syndicated rights from Hanna Barbara for Scooby Doo & The Flintstones. These two shows also had barter ads inserted and stations would not have to pay for the shows.
In 1983 He Man (Group W), Inspector Gadget (DIC), and Plasticman (DIC) were added. In 1984 Heathcliff (DIC), Voltron, and Robotech were added. In 1985 GI Joe, Go Bots, Transformers, New Jetsons (as well as old ones reissued), MASK, She Ra, and Jace were available.
By 1987 there were nearly 2 dozen weekday cartoons available on a barter basis. The old Tom & Jerry, Bugs Bunny, cartoons were about the only cash product. Even Popeye and Woody Woodpecker were issued on barter. Disney got into it with Ducktales in 1987, Chip & Dales in 1989, Tale Spin 1990, Gummi Bears1990, Darkwing Duck 1991, Goof Troop 1992, Bonkers 1993, Aladin 1994, Gargoyels 1995, and in later years Doug, Hercules, and many others. Disney syndicated a 30 minute block 1987-88, hour 1988-90, 2 hours 1990-1999 plus an additional optional hour 1992-1998.
The local stations got kids shows for no cash. They had to run about 3 to 5 minutes of commercials inseretd (barter) and then they could sell the remaining time locally to national and regional advertisers through ad agencies. Cartoons prior to 1996 was a win win situation. Fox got into it in 1990 with 30 minutes, 90 minutes in 1991, 2 and a half hours 1992, 3 hours 1993-99, 2 and a half hours 1999-2000, 2 hours 2000-the end of 2001. WB added an hour kids block in 1995 and in 1997 made it 3 hours, and in 2002 went down to 2 hours. UPN picked up the Disney cartoons in 1999 but ended them in 2003.
In 1996 when stations had nearly 20 minutes per hour to run children's ads they had an easy time selling the remaining time and sold enough time to make money plus the syndicator sold enough time to make the program worth producing. But when ad time was cut to 12 minutes per hour, after the syndicator, Fox, or WB ran their ads and made a profit on it there was only a minute or so per 30 minute show left to sell. In many cases selling this ad was not enough to turn a profit. When in a 30 minute show you are limited to 6 minutes of ad time divided among the syndicator (or WB) and the lcal station its almost impossible mathamatically for the TV station to make a profit even if they paid no cash for the show. If they pay cash for a kids show the 6 minutes of ad time would make it togh to both pay for the show and then profit.
This is what I have been told by programming departments of Fox, UPN, and WB stations when I called to ask why. They simply said they are prohibited by law from selling enough ad time to be able to make a profit. 12 minutes an hour of available ad time is simply not enough time to make money selling ads. Also Cable networks are under less restrictions. Plus their parent companies often own most of the shows they run. And kids have simply been tuning to them more.
So the Cable factor is about half the reason.
J
Joseph_Gallant
Guest
I think the only reason ABC, CBS and NBC even have children's programming is the "E/I Rule".
Were the "E/I Rule" to be abolished, I suspect ABC, CBS and NBC would quickly abandon their remaining children's programming on Saturday mornings, keep the Saturday editions of their morning news/info shows, and hand back the rest of Saturday mornings to their affiliates. In many markets, local stations would sandwich the network morning show with local news from 6-7 A.M. and 9 A.M.-12 Noon (or until network sports coverage starts) local.
Were the "E/I Rule" to be abolished, I suspect ABC, CBS and NBC would quickly abandon their remaining children's programming on Saturday mornings, keep the Saturday editions of their morning news/info shows, and hand back the rest of Saturday mornings to their affiliates. In many markets, local stations would sandwich the network morning show with local news from 6-7 A.M. and 9 A.M.-12 Noon (or until network sports coverage starts) local.
T
Tom_Desmond
Guest
Sorry, but your post is riddled with errors. Corrections follow.
> Actually it was part of the Telcom act of 1996. So it was
> the late 90's. In the Telcom Act it did indeed loosen radio
> restrictions in ownership but a whole section was about
> Children's TV.
The Children's Television Act was separate from the Telecomm Act, and was passed when George H. W. Bush was still president. From the FCC's website:
"In 1990, Congress enacted the Children’s Television Act (CTA) to increase the amount of educational and informational programming available on television. CTA requires each broadcast television station in the United States to serve the educational and informational needs of children through its overall programming, including programming specifically designed to serve these needs ("core programming"). It also limits the amount of time broadcasters may devote to commercial matter during children’s programs."
As I have previously noted, the children's business on broadcast television continued to prosper through most of the nineties, *after* this legislation was passed and went into effect. The CTA very obviously did not hurt this business.
> The Kids TV ruling obligated ALL TV Stations to provide 3
> hours a week of educational Children's shows. As a result
> ABC, NBC, and CBS moved in a more educational direction on
> their Saturday Morning shows. This took effect late in 1996.
See above. This did not take effect in 1996, since it had been passed and went into effect at the start of the decade.
> This is where the 12 minutes per hour weekday advertising
> rules went into effect down from the standard 21 minutes per
> hour allowed on other programming (prior to 1996 Kids shows
> as well). Also it was ruled that cartoons were no longer to
> be tied to a toy and based on it in order to run ads on it.
There has never been a limit of 21 minutes imposed on advertising during children's programs, and I don't know where you're getting this from. There was a nominal limit of 12 minutes/hour on weekedays (less on weekends) in the seventies, but it generally wasn't enforced during most of the eighties and ad limits probably did creep up during this period. But they certainly didn't creep up to 21 minutes/hour.
> These two channels existed years before. Nick was in its
> similar form since the mid 80's and Cartoon Network since
> 1993 or 94.
Yes, they've both been around for a while. But it wasn't until the late nineties that they really became the major force in the market that they are today. Before that, they were niche players that were a supplement to advertising on broadcast kids shows.
> I have talked with a few people at local WB affiliates as
> well as the WB Network. They STILL HAVE NOT MADE A FINAL
> DECISION ON KIDS WB WWEEKDAYS. They told me that yes they
> MIGHT be ending the Kids WB but an absolute decision wont be
> made until the Fall.
If a decision hasn't been made, then why has the WB already bought a double run of "Reba" reruns for weekday afternoons between 4 PM and 5 PM, starting in Fall 2006? This was reported last week in Broadcasting & Cable magazine, and this purchase leaves little doubt that the Kids WB weekday block will be phased out.
> Now another thing not stated. In the past before 1981 all
> cartoons were sold on a cash basis like any other show.
This is wrong. Much of the better product was apparently sold on a cash basis, but barter syndication of children's shows was around prior to 1981. Here's a quote from the program director of WGNO-TV in New Orleans, from back in the seventies: "We don't buy any kids programs. We barter them all. The barter product is good quality and it costs us absolutely nothing." This quote is from an old article photo copied from Variety, and while I don't have the date that it was published, it is clear that it was written no later than the mid-seventies, and probably in the early seventies.
> An average Top 30 market had at least
> one independent station that supported 6 to 8 hours of
> cartoons a day on weekday.
This varied quite a bit from market to market. While 6 to 8 hours may have been true in some of the largest markets, in the markets I was familiar with (Seattle-Tacoma, Portland, OR), it was typically closer to 4 hours: 7 to 9 AM and 3 to 5 PM.
> In 1981 Superfriends was issued in barter. Each episode had
> 5 minutes of inserted commercials from the syndicator
> leaving 4 minutes of local ad time.
Your numbers here are wrong. These shows were typically issued with a split of 2 minutes for the syndicator and 4 minutes for the station, except in the fourth quarter (fall) when the syndicator would pick up an extra 30 second spot and the split would become 2.5 minutes for the syndicator and 3.5 minutes for the station. If you want documentation, I can dig out old copies of Television/Radio Age later.
While the exact split did vary over the years, at no time did barter syndicated kids shows *ever* contain 5 minutes of syndicator spots in a half hour show.
> In 1982 The Program Exchange got
> syndicated rights from Hanna Barbara for Scooby Doo & The
> Flintstones. These two shows also had barter ads inserted
> and stations would not have to pay for the shows.
Actually, Scooby Doo was in barter syndication prior to this -- I think it went into syndication in either 1979 or 1980, and it was always a bartered property from the very beginning.
> In 1996 when stations had nearly 20 minutes per hour to run
> children's ads they had an easy time selling the remaining
> time and sold enough time to make money plus the syndicator
> sold enough time to make the program worth producing.
Again, this is wrong. Since the Children's Television Act had been passed in 1990, they had been profitably living with the 12 minute limit for several years at this point.
> When in a 30 minute show you are limited to 6
> minutes of ad time divided among the syndicator (or WB) and
> the lcal station its almost impossible mathamatically for
> the TV station to make a profit even if they paid no cash
> for the show. If they pay cash for a kids show the 6 minutes
> of ad time would make it togh to both pay for the show and
> then profit.
This is just nonsense. Stations made a profit with both bartered and all-cash childrens shows under this 6 minute/half hour limit through most of the seventies. And they were living with it successfully again after the Children's Television Act of 1990.
> This is what I have been told by programming departments of
> Fox, UPN, and WB stations when I called to ask why. They
> simply said they are prohibited by law from selling enough
> ad time to be able to make a profit. 12 minutes an hour of
> available ad time is simply not enough time to make money
> selling ads.
This may be what those folks are telling you, but they are simply using the law as an excuse. Whenever I've tuned in to local cartoon broadcasts, what I inevitably see in the past couple years is that the local availabilities are always filled with public service announcements and promos for other programs -- they can't sell the time that they have available now. Making more ad time available to local stations wouldn't remedy this problem, which is simply that advertisers no longer buy time during children's programs at the local broadcast level.
> Actually it was part of the Telcom act of 1996. So it was
> the late 90's. In the Telcom Act it did indeed loosen radio
> restrictions in ownership but a whole section was about
> Children's TV.
The Children's Television Act was separate from the Telecomm Act, and was passed when George H. W. Bush was still president. From the FCC's website:
"In 1990, Congress enacted the Children’s Television Act (CTA) to increase the amount of educational and informational programming available on television. CTA requires each broadcast television station in the United States to serve the educational and informational needs of children through its overall programming, including programming specifically designed to serve these needs ("core programming"). It also limits the amount of time broadcasters may devote to commercial matter during children’s programs."
As I have previously noted, the children's business on broadcast television continued to prosper through most of the nineties, *after* this legislation was passed and went into effect. The CTA very obviously did not hurt this business.
> The Kids TV ruling obligated ALL TV Stations to provide 3
> hours a week of educational Children's shows. As a result
> ABC, NBC, and CBS moved in a more educational direction on
> their Saturday Morning shows. This took effect late in 1996.
See above. This did not take effect in 1996, since it had been passed and went into effect at the start of the decade.
> This is where the 12 minutes per hour weekday advertising
> rules went into effect down from the standard 21 minutes per
> hour allowed on other programming (prior to 1996 Kids shows
> as well). Also it was ruled that cartoons were no longer to
> be tied to a toy and based on it in order to run ads on it.
There has never been a limit of 21 minutes imposed on advertising during children's programs, and I don't know where you're getting this from. There was a nominal limit of 12 minutes/hour on weekedays (less on weekends) in the seventies, but it generally wasn't enforced during most of the eighties and ad limits probably did creep up during this period. But they certainly didn't creep up to 21 minutes/hour.
> These two channels existed years before. Nick was in its
> similar form since the mid 80's and Cartoon Network since
> 1993 or 94.
Yes, they've both been around for a while. But it wasn't until the late nineties that they really became the major force in the market that they are today. Before that, they were niche players that were a supplement to advertising on broadcast kids shows.
> I have talked with a few people at local WB affiliates as
> well as the WB Network. They STILL HAVE NOT MADE A FINAL
> DECISION ON KIDS WB WWEEKDAYS. They told me that yes they
> MIGHT be ending the Kids WB but an absolute decision wont be
> made until the Fall.
If a decision hasn't been made, then why has the WB already bought a double run of "Reba" reruns for weekday afternoons between 4 PM and 5 PM, starting in Fall 2006? This was reported last week in Broadcasting & Cable magazine, and this purchase leaves little doubt that the Kids WB weekday block will be phased out.
> Now another thing not stated. In the past before 1981 all
> cartoons were sold on a cash basis like any other show.
This is wrong. Much of the better product was apparently sold on a cash basis, but barter syndication of children's shows was around prior to 1981. Here's a quote from the program director of WGNO-TV in New Orleans, from back in the seventies: "We don't buy any kids programs. We barter them all. The barter product is good quality and it costs us absolutely nothing." This quote is from an old article photo copied from Variety, and while I don't have the date that it was published, it is clear that it was written no later than the mid-seventies, and probably in the early seventies.
> An average Top 30 market had at least
> one independent station that supported 6 to 8 hours of
> cartoons a day on weekday.
This varied quite a bit from market to market. While 6 to 8 hours may have been true in some of the largest markets, in the markets I was familiar with (Seattle-Tacoma, Portland, OR), it was typically closer to 4 hours: 7 to 9 AM and 3 to 5 PM.
> In 1981 Superfriends was issued in barter. Each episode had
> 5 minutes of inserted commercials from the syndicator
> leaving 4 minutes of local ad time.
Your numbers here are wrong. These shows were typically issued with a split of 2 minutes for the syndicator and 4 minutes for the station, except in the fourth quarter (fall) when the syndicator would pick up an extra 30 second spot and the split would become 2.5 minutes for the syndicator and 3.5 minutes for the station. If you want documentation, I can dig out old copies of Television/Radio Age later.
While the exact split did vary over the years, at no time did barter syndicated kids shows *ever* contain 5 minutes of syndicator spots in a half hour show.
> In 1982 The Program Exchange got
> syndicated rights from Hanna Barbara for Scooby Doo & The
> Flintstones. These two shows also had barter ads inserted
> and stations would not have to pay for the shows.
Actually, Scooby Doo was in barter syndication prior to this -- I think it went into syndication in either 1979 or 1980, and it was always a bartered property from the very beginning.
> In 1996 when stations had nearly 20 minutes per hour to run
> children's ads they had an easy time selling the remaining
> time and sold enough time to make money plus the syndicator
> sold enough time to make the program worth producing.
Again, this is wrong. Since the Children's Television Act had been passed in 1990, they had been profitably living with the 12 minute limit for several years at this point.
> When in a 30 minute show you are limited to 6
> minutes of ad time divided among the syndicator (or WB) and
> the lcal station its almost impossible mathamatically for
> the TV station to make a profit even if they paid no cash
> for the show. If they pay cash for a kids show the 6 minutes
> of ad time would make it togh to both pay for the show and
> then profit.
This is just nonsense. Stations made a profit with both bartered and all-cash childrens shows under this 6 minute/half hour limit through most of the seventies. And they were living with it successfully again after the Children's Television Act of 1990.
> This is what I have been told by programming departments of
> Fox, UPN, and WB stations when I called to ask why. They
> simply said they are prohibited by law from selling enough
> ad time to be able to make a profit. 12 minutes an hour of
> available ad time is simply not enough time to make money
> selling ads.
This may be what those folks are telling you, but they are simply using the law as an excuse. Whenever I've tuned in to local cartoon broadcasts, what I inevitably see in the past couple years is that the local availabilities are always filled with public service announcements and promos for other programs -- they can't sell the time that they have available now. Making more ad time available to local stations wouldn't remedy this problem, which is simply that advertisers no longer buy time during children's programs at the local broadcast level.
> Sorry, but your post is riddled with errors. Corrections
> follow.
>
> > Actually it was part of the Telcom act of 1996. So it was
> > the late 90's. In the Telcom Act it did indeed loosen
> radio
> > restrictions in ownership but a whole section was about
> > Children's TV.
>
> The Children's Television Act was separate from the Telecomm
> Act, and was passed when George H. W. Bush was still
> president. From the FCC's website:
>
> "In 1990, Congress enacted the Children’s Television Act
> (CTA) to increase the amount of educational and
> informational programming available on television. CTA
> requires each broadcast television station in the United
> States to serve the educational and informational needs of
> children through its overall programming, including
> programming specifically designed to serve these needs
> ("core programming"). It also limits the amount of time
> broadcasters may devote to commercial matter during
> children’s programs."
>
> As I have previously noted, the children's business on
> broadcast television continued to prosper through most of
> the nineties, *after* this legislation was passed and went
> into effect. The CTA very obviously did not hurt this
> business.
>
> > The Kids TV ruling obligated ALL TV Stations to provide 3
> > hours a week of educational Children's shows. As a result
> > ABC, NBC, and CBS moved in a more educational direction on
>
> > their Saturday Morning shows. This took effect late in
> 1996.
>
> See above. This did not take effect in 1996, since it had
> been passed and went into effect at the start of the decade.
>
>
> > This is where the 12 minutes per hour weekday advertising
> > rules went into effect down from the standard 21 minutes
> per
> > hour allowed on other programming (prior to 1996 Kids
> shows
> > as well). Also it was ruled that cartoons were no longer
> to
> > be tied to a toy and based on it in order to run ads on
> it.
>
> There has never been a limit of 21 minutes imposed on
> advertising during children's programs, and I don't know
> where you're getting this from. There was a nominal limit
> of 12 minutes/hour on weekedays (less on weekends) in the
> seventies, but it generally wasn't enforced during most of
> the eighties and ad limits probably did creep up during this
> period. But they certainly didn't creep up to 21
> minutes/hour.
>
> > These two channels existed years before. Nick was in its
> > similar form since the mid 80's and Cartoon Network since
> > 1993 or 94.
>
> Yes, they've both been around for a while. But it wasn't
> until the late nineties that they really became the major
> force in the market that they are today. Before that, they
> were niche players that were a supplement to advertising on
> broadcast kids shows.
>
> > I have talked with a few people at local WB affiliates as
> > well as the WB Network. They STILL HAVE NOT MADE A FINAL
> > DECISION ON KIDS WB WWEEKDAYS. They told me that yes they
> > MIGHT be ending the Kids WB but an absolute decision wont
> be
> > made until the Fall.
>
> If a decision hasn't been made, then why has the WB already
> bought a double run of "Reba" reruns for weekday afternoons
> between 4 PM and 5 PM, starting in Fall 2006? This was
> reported last week in Broadcasting & Cable magazine, and
> this purchase leaves little doubt that the Kids WB weekday
> block will be phased out.
>
> > Now another thing not stated. In the past before 1981 all
> > cartoons were sold on a cash basis like any other show.
>
> This is wrong. Much of the better product was apparently
> sold on a cash basis, but barter syndication of children's
> shows was around prior to 1981. Here's a quote from the
> program director of WGNO-TV in New Orleans, from back in the
> seventies: "We don't buy any kids programs. We barter them
> all. The barter product is good quality and it costs us
> absolutely nothing." This quote is from an old article
> photo copied from Variety, and while I don't have the date
> that it was published, it is clear that it was written no
> later than the mid-seventies, and probably in the early
> seventies.
>
> > An average Top 30 market had at least
> > one independent station that supported 6 to 8 hours of
> > cartoons a day on weekday.
>
> This varied quite a bit from market to market. While 6 to 8
> hours may have been true in some of the largest markets, in
> the markets I was familiar with (Seattle-Tacoma, Portland,
> OR), it was typically closer to 4 hours: 7 to 9 AM and 3 to
> 5 PM.
>
> > In 1981 Superfriends was issued in barter. Each episode
> had
> > 5 minutes of inserted commercials from the syndicator
> > leaving 4 minutes of local ad time.
>
> Your numbers here are wrong. These shows were typically
> issued with a split of 2 minutes for the syndicator and 4
> minutes for the station, except in the fourth quarter (fall)
> when the syndicator would pick up an extra 30 second spot
> and the split would become 2.5 minutes for the syndicator
> and 3.5 minutes for the station. If you want documentation,
> I can dig out old copies of Television/Radio Age later.
>
> While the exact split did vary over the years, at no time
> did barter syndicated kids shows *ever* contain 5 minutes of
> syndicator spots in a half hour show.
>
> > In 1982 The Program Exchange got
> > syndicated rights from Hanna Barbara for Scooby Doo & The
> > Flintstones. These two shows also had barter ads inserted
> > and stations would not have to pay for the shows.
>
> Actually, Scooby Doo was in barter syndication prior to this
> -- I think it went into syndication in either 1979 or 1980,
> and it was always a bartered property from the very
> beginning.
>
> > In 1996 when stations had nearly 20 minutes per hour to
> run
> > children's ads they had an easy time selling the remaining
>
> > time and sold enough time to make money plus the
> syndicator
> > sold enough time to make the program worth producing.
>
> Again, this is wrong. Since the Children's Television Act
> had been passed in 1990, they had been profitably living
> with the 12 minute limit for several years at this point.
>
> > When in a 30 minute show you are limited to 6
> > minutes of ad time divided among the syndicator (or WB)
> and
> > the lcal station its almost impossible mathamatically for
> > the TV station to make a profit even if they paid no cash
> > for the show. If they pay cash for a kids show the 6
> minutes
> > of ad time would make it togh to both pay for the show and
>
> > then profit.
>
> This is just nonsense. Stations made a profit with both
> bartered and all-cash childrens shows under this 6
> minute/half hour limit through most of the seventies. And
> they were living with it successfully again after the
> Children's Television Act of 1990.
>
> > This is what I have been told by programming departments
> of
> > Fox, UPN, and WB stations when I called to ask why. They
> > simply said they are prohibited by law from selling enough
>
> > ad time to be able to make a profit. 12 minutes an hour of
>
> > available ad time is simply not enough time to make money
> > selling ads.
>
> This may be what those folks are telling you, but they are
> simply using the law as an excuse. Whenever I've tuned in
> to local cartoon broadcasts, what I inevitably see in the
> past couple years is that the local availabilities are
> always filled with public service announcements and promos
> for other programs -- they can't sell the time that they
> have available now. Making more ad time available to local
> stations wouldn't remedy this problem, which is simply that
> advertisers no longer buy time during children's programs at
> the local broadcast level.
>
The WB Network has announced that it has acquired reruns of NBC's "ER" and ABC's recently canceled "8 Simple Rules for Dating My Teenage Daughter" to replace its weekday Kids WB! block beginning in January. "ER" will air at 3PM ET followed by two back to back episodes of "8 Simple Rules" at 4PM. The 66 episodes of "8 Simple Rules" will run on the network until September, when the show will be replaced by reruns of "Reba."
Here is the address of the MediaWeek.com article reporting on the acquisitions:
http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/news/recent_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000976381
> follow.
>
> > Actually it was part of the Telcom act of 1996. So it was
> > the late 90's. In the Telcom Act it did indeed loosen
> radio
> > restrictions in ownership but a whole section was about
> > Children's TV.
>
> The Children's Television Act was separate from the Telecomm
> Act, and was passed when George H. W. Bush was still
> president. From the FCC's website:
>
> "In 1990, Congress enacted the Children’s Television Act
> (CTA) to increase the amount of educational and
> informational programming available on television. CTA
> requires each broadcast television station in the United
> States to serve the educational and informational needs of
> children through its overall programming, including
> programming specifically designed to serve these needs
> ("core programming"). It also limits the amount of time
> broadcasters may devote to commercial matter during
> children’s programs."
>
> As I have previously noted, the children's business on
> broadcast television continued to prosper through most of
> the nineties, *after* this legislation was passed and went
> into effect. The CTA very obviously did not hurt this
> business.
>
> > The Kids TV ruling obligated ALL TV Stations to provide 3
> > hours a week of educational Children's shows. As a result
> > ABC, NBC, and CBS moved in a more educational direction on
>
> > their Saturday Morning shows. This took effect late in
> 1996.
>
> See above. This did not take effect in 1996, since it had
> been passed and went into effect at the start of the decade.
>
>
> > This is where the 12 minutes per hour weekday advertising
> > rules went into effect down from the standard 21 minutes
> per
> > hour allowed on other programming (prior to 1996 Kids
> shows
> > as well). Also it was ruled that cartoons were no longer
> to
> > be tied to a toy and based on it in order to run ads on
> it.
>
> There has never been a limit of 21 minutes imposed on
> advertising during children's programs, and I don't know
> where you're getting this from. There was a nominal limit
> of 12 minutes/hour on weekedays (less on weekends) in the
> seventies, but it generally wasn't enforced during most of
> the eighties and ad limits probably did creep up during this
> period. But they certainly didn't creep up to 21
> minutes/hour.
>
> > These two channels existed years before. Nick was in its
> > similar form since the mid 80's and Cartoon Network since
> > 1993 or 94.
>
> Yes, they've both been around for a while. But it wasn't
> until the late nineties that they really became the major
> force in the market that they are today. Before that, they
> were niche players that were a supplement to advertising on
> broadcast kids shows.
>
> > I have talked with a few people at local WB affiliates as
> > well as the WB Network. They STILL HAVE NOT MADE A FINAL
> > DECISION ON KIDS WB WWEEKDAYS. They told me that yes they
> > MIGHT be ending the Kids WB but an absolute decision wont
> be
> > made until the Fall.
>
> If a decision hasn't been made, then why has the WB already
> bought a double run of "Reba" reruns for weekday afternoons
> between 4 PM and 5 PM, starting in Fall 2006? This was
> reported last week in Broadcasting & Cable magazine, and
> this purchase leaves little doubt that the Kids WB weekday
> block will be phased out.
>
> > Now another thing not stated. In the past before 1981 all
> > cartoons were sold on a cash basis like any other show.
>
> This is wrong. Much of the better product was apparently
> sold on a cash basis, but barter syndication of children's
> shows was around prior to 1981. Here's a quote from the
> program director of WGNO-TV in New Orleans, from back in the
> seventies: "We don't buy any kids programs. We barter them
> all. The barter product is good quality and it costs us
> absolutely nothing." This quote is from an old article
> photo copied from Variety, and while I don't have the date
> that it was published, it is clear that it was written no
> later than the mid-seventies, and probably in the early
> seventies.
>
> > An average Top 30 market had at least
> > one independent station that supported 6 to 8 hours of
> > cartoons a day on weekday.
>
> This varied quite a bit from market to market. While 6 to 8
> hours may have been true in some of the largest markets, in
> the markets I was familiar with (Seattle-Tacoma, Portland,
> OR), it was typically closer to 4 hours: 7 to 9 AM and 3 to
> 5 PM.
>
> > In 1981 Superfriends was issued in barter. Each episode
> had
> > 5 minutes of inserted commercials from the syndicator
> > leaving 4 minutes of local ad time.
>
> Your numbers here are wrong. These shows were typically
> issued with a split of 2 minutes for the syndicator and 4
> minutes for the station, except in the fourth quarter (fall)
> when the syndicator would pick up an extra 30 second spot
> and the split would become 2.5 minutes for the syndicator
> and 3.5 minutes for the station. If you want documentation,
> I can dig out old copies of Television/Radio Age later.
>
> While the exact split did vary over the years, at no time
> did barter syndicated kids shows *ever* contain 5 minutes of
> syndicator spots in a half hour show.
>
> > In 1982 The Program Exchange got
> > syndicated rights from Hanna Barbara for Scooby Doo & The
> > Flintstones. These two shows also had barter ads inserted
> > and stations would not have to pay for the shows.
>
> Actually, Scooby Doo was in barter syndication prior to this
> -- I think it went into syndication in either 1979 or 1980,
> and it was always a bartered property from the very
> beginning.
>
> > In 1996 when stations had nearly 20 minutes per hour to
> run
> > children's ads they had an easy time selling the remaining
>
> > time and sold enough time to make money plus the
> syndicator
> > sold enough time to make the program worth producing.
>
> Again, this is wrong. Since the Children's Television Act
> had been passed in 1990, they had been profitably living
> with the 12 minute limit for several years at this point.
>
> > When in a 30 minute show you are limited to 6
> > minutes of ad time divided among the syndicator (or WB)
> and
> > the lcal station its almost impossible mathamatically for
> > the TV station to make a profit even if they paid no cash
> > for the show. If they pay cash for a kids show the 6
> minutes
> > of ad time would make it togh to both pay for the show and
>
> > then profit.
>
> This is just nonsense. Stations made a profit with both
> bartered and all-cash childrens shows under this 6
> minute/half hour limit through most of the seventies. And
> they were living with it successfully again after the
> Children's Television Act of 1990.
>
> > This is what I have been told by programming departments
> of
> > Fox, UPN, and WB stations when I called to ask why. They
> > simply said they are prohibited by law from selling enough
>
> > ad time to be able to make a profit. 12 minutes an hour of
>
> > available ad time is simply not enough time to make money
> > selling ads.
>
> This may be what those folks are telling you, but they are
> simply using the law as an excuse. Whenever I've tuned in
> to local cartoon broadcasts, what I inevitably see in the
> past couple years is that the local availabilities are
> always filled with public service announcements and promos
> for other programs -- they can't sell the time that they
> have available now. Making more ad time available to local
> stations wouldn't remedy this problem, which is simply that
> advertisers no longer buy time during children's programs at
> the local broadcast level.
>
The WB Network has announced that it has acquired reruns of NBC's "ER" and ABC's recently canceled "8 Simple Rules for Dating My Teenage Daughter" to replace its weekday Kids WB! block beginning in January. "ER" will air at 3PM ET followed by two back to back episodes of "8 Simple Rules" at 4PM. The 66 episodes of "8 Simple Rules" will run on the network until September, when the show will be replaced by reruns of "Reba."
Here is the address of the MediaWeek.com article reporting on the acquisitions:
http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/news/recent_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000976381
> The Children's Television Act was separate from the Telecomm
> Act, and was passed when George H. W. Bush was still
> president. From the FCC's website:
> "In 1990, Congress enacted the Children’s Television Act
> (CTA) to increase the amount of educational and
> informational programming available on television. CTA
> requires each broadcast television station in the United
> States to serve the educational and informational needs of
> children through its overall programming, including
> programming specifically designed to serve these needs
> ("core programming"). It also limits the amount of time
> broadcasters may devote to commercial matter during
> children’s programs."
> As I have previously noted, the children's business on
> broadcast television continued to prosper through most of
> the nineties, *after* this legislation was passed and went
> into effect. The CTA very obviously did not hurt this
> business.
I do know that the 3 hour a week manditory educational Kids shows were not enforced until 1996 or 1997.
Example: ABC affiliate 4 WTAE TV Pittsburgh prior to Fall of 1996 ran only Bill Nye at 7 AM Saturday and Capelli & Co at 7:30 AM Saturday. Then they ran News 8 AM to 12:30 PM and then ABC Sports or local programming after that. Sundays they ran religion till 8 AM and then Local News along with This Week till the afternoon when they ran sports from ABC or a movie or other syndicated shows along with News and Prime Time shows the rest of Sunday. Weekdays like on virtually every ABC affiliate there was No kids shows. In the Fall of 1996 they added an hour of ABC's Cartoons on Sunday morning and an hour on Saturday morning. So they did not begin running 3 hours of educational kids shows until the Fall of 1996. Most every kids show on the independents were entertainment and not educational. None of the Fox Kids shows were Educational until 1994 when they began "Clubhouse".
> There has never been a limit of 21 minutes imposed on
> advertising during children's programs, and I don't know
> where you're getting this from.
It seemed prior to the 90's at least that kids shows had the same amount of ads as other shows. Maybe there was no limit and maybe there was. I am not sure prior to the 90's. I was told though that prime time programming on the big 3 were limited to 8 minutes of ads per hour. I dont know this for sure however.
> There was a nominal limit of 12 minutes/hour on weekedays (less on weekends) > in the seventies, but it generally wasn't enforced during most of
> the eighties and ad limits probably did creep up during this
> period. But they certainly didn't creep up to 21
> minutes/hour.
It certainly was not enforced in the 70's or 80's. Am unsure what, if any limits were. Actually it seemed that most stations ran about 7 minutes per 30 minute show. Most 25 minute shows like I Love Lucy, Brady Bunch, Andy Grifith were cut to 22 minutes on most stations. Some stations ran pre cut syndicated episodes. Others just cut the first 3 minute scene, others cut a scene somewhere in the middle, others cut a different scene each showing. It seemed to depend on the local station. But they certainly seemed to run 16 minutes an hour of commercials. I did not mean 21 minutes....it was more like 18 or 19 minutes...my mistake.
> If a decision hasn't been made, then why has the WB already
> bought a double run of "Reba" reruns for weekday afternoons
> between 4 PM and 5 PM, starting in Fall 2006? This was
> reported last week in Broadcasting & Cable magazine, and
> this purchase leaves little doubt that the Kids WB weekday
> block will be phased out.
It could be they are running this stuff in other time periods. Anyhow I found out just days ago they comfirmed they will be ending weekday kids shows in january. They are considering putting kids shows out for syndication but there are no guarantees. They are going with an adult block in the afternoon slots. I thought they would be giving this time back to the local stations rather than replacing the kids shows.
> This is wrong. Much of the better product was apparently
> sold on a cash basis, but barter syndication of children's
> shows was around prior to 1981.
Some barter product was around prior to 1981.
> Here's a quote from the program director of WGNO-TV in New Orleans, from back > in the seventies: "We don't buy any kids programs. We barter them
> all. The barter product is good quality and it costs us
> absolutely nothing." This quote is from an old article
> photo copied from Variety, and while I don't have the date
> that it was published, it is clear that it was written no
> later than the mid-seventies, and probably in the early
> seventies.
My guess is this sounds more like about 1982 or 83. But it could have been as far back as 1975.
> This varied quite a bit from market to market. While 6 to 8
> hours may have been true in some of the largest markets, in
> the markets I was familiar with (Seattle-Tacoma, Portland,
> OR), it was typically closer to 4 hours: 7 to 9 AM and 3 to
> 5 PM.
Portland had only one independent 12 WPTV and 7-9 AM and 3-5 PM there sounds about right. Seattle had only one independent till 1980 11 KSTW. I know by a983 they were running 2 and a half hours in mornings and 2 and a half hours of kids in afternoons...probably was 2 hours each at some point as well. 13 KCPQ signed on in 1980. Until the fall of 1987 they did not run any childrens shows on weekdays. They ran mostly drama shows, movies, some game shows, other syndicated fare, network oddball shows rejected by affiliates, and religion. KTZZ 22 signed on in 85 and began running 4 to 6 hours a day of kids shows.
In New York City 9 WOR TV ran no kids programming at all in 1984 except for Romper Room 10-11 AM weekdays. 11 WPIX ran kids from 6:30-9 AM and 2:30 to 5 PM weekdays. 5 WNEW TV ran kids shows 6-9 AM and 2 to 5 PM weekdays.
One station that ran too much kids shows was 56 WLVI Boston. They ran cartoons 6-11 AM and 12:30 to 5 PM Weekdays in the Spring of 1986. Fall of 86 they were running cartoons 6-10 AM; 2-6 PM. 38 WSBK ran kids from 6:30-9 AM and 2:30 to 5 PM Weekdays as did 25 WXNE. So it varied.
> Your numbers here are wrong. These shows were typically
> issued with a split of 2 minutes for the syndicator and 4
> minutes for the station, except in the fourth quarter (fall)
> when the syndicator would pick up an extra 30 second spot
> and the split would become 2.5 minutes for the syndicator
> and 3.5 minutes for the station. If you want documentation,
> I can dig out old copies of Television/Radio Age later.
I dont have exact numbers ...your numbers sound right...
> Actually, Scooby Doo was in barter syndication prior to this
> -- I think it went into syndication in either 1979 or 1980,
> and it was always a bartered property from the very
> beginning.
It was in either the fall of 1979 or Winter of 1980. My old new york city listings had Scooby Doo on 11 WPIX February 1980 though not in the Fall of 79. But it could have been available back in 79. I was led to believe Scooby Doo started out as Cash from Hanna Barbara directly...and made barter in 1982. I never knew this for sure. DFS may have had Scooby Doo in the beginning. I know Flintstones was cash prior to 1982. Columbia/Screen Gems had syndication rights until 1982. Then in 1982 DFS got the rights and teh show was barter.
> This may be what those folks are telling you, but they are
> simply using the law as an excuse. Whenever I've tuned in
> to local cartoon broadcasts, what I inevitably see in the
> past couple years is that the local availabilities are
> always filled with public service announcements and promos
> for other programs -- they can't sell the time that they
> have available now. Making more ad time available to local
> stations wouldn't remedy this problem, which is simply that
> advertisers no longer buy time during children's programs at
> the local broadcast level.
You could be right. I have not watched any of these shows in years. I will try to look for myself. I will tape an hour of Kids WB and an hour of syndicated cartoons and time the ads and PSA's. I myself am curious to see how much time is spent on ads.
One factor also was the types of ads allowed to run on kids shows is restricted. Cartoons based on childrens's products no longer can be produced and airing ads for the product..GI Joe or Transformers or Go Bots for example. I was told this as well.
Anyhow I am sad to see so much kids product disappearing fro off air TV. The kids shows seem to make a station look far better than infomercials or religion in such slots.
> Act, and was passed when George H. W. Bush was still
> president. From the FCC's website:
> "In 1990, Congress enacted the Children’s Television Act
> (CTA) to increase the amount of educational and
> informational programming available on television. CTA
> requires each broadcast television station in the United
> States to serve the educational and informational needs of
> children through its overall programming, including
> programming specifically designed to serve these needs
> ("core programming"). It also limits the amount of time
> broadcasters may devote to commercial matter during
> children’s programs."
> As I have previously noted, the children's business on
> broadcast television continued to prosper through most of
> the nineties, *after* this legislation was passed and went
> into effect. The CTA very obviously did not hurt this
> business.
I do know that the 3 hour a week manditory educational Kids shows were not enforced until 1996 or 1997.
Example: ABC affiliate 4 WTAE TV Pittsburgh prior to Fall of 1996 ran only Bill Nye at 7 AM Saturday and Capelli & Co at 7:30 AM Saturday. Then they ran News 8 AM to 12:30 PM and then ABC Sports or local programming after that. Sundays they ran religion till 8 AM and then Local News along with This Week till the afternoon when they ran sports from ABC or a movie or other syndicated shows along with News and Prime Time shows the rest of Sunday. Weekdays like on virtually every ABC affiliate there was No kids shows. In the Fall of 1996 they added an hour of ABC's Cartoons on Sunday morning and an hour on Saturday morning. So they did not begin running 3 hours of educational kids shows until the Fall of 1996. Most every kids show on the independents were entertainment and not educational. None of the Fox Kids shows were Educational until 1994 when they began "Clubhouse".
> There has never been a limit of 21 minutes imposed on
> advertising during children's programs, and I don't know
> where you're getting this from.
It seemed prior to the 90's at least that kids shows had the same amount of ads as other shows. Maybe there was no limit and maybe there was. I am not sure prior to the 90's. I was told though that prime time programming on the big 3 were limited to 8 minutes of ads per hour. I dont know this for sure however.
> There was a nominal limit of 12 minutes/hour on weekedays (less on weekends) > in the seventies, but it generally wasn't enforced during most of
> the eighties and ad limits probably did creep up during this
> period. But they certainly didn't creep up to 21
> minutes/hour.
It certainly was not enforced in the 70's or 80's. Am unsure what, if any limits were. Actually it seemed that most stations ran about 7 minutes per 30 minute show. Most 25 minute shows like I Love Lucy, Brady Bunch, Andy Grifith were cut to 22 minutes on most stations. Some stations ran pre cut syndicated episodes. Others just cut the first 3 minute scene, others cut a scene somewhere in the middle, others cut a different scene each showing. It seemed to depend on the local station. But they certainly seemed to run 16 minutes an hour of commercials. I did not mean 21 minutes....it was more like 18 or 19 minutes...my mistake.
> If a decision hasn't been made, then why has the WB already
> bought a double run of "Reba" reruns for weekday afternoons
> between 4 PM and 5 PM, starting in Fall 2006? This was
> reported last week in Broadcasting & Cable magazine, and
> this purchase leaves little doubt that the Kids WB weekday
> block will be phased out.
It could be they are running this stuff in other time periods. Anyhow I found out just days ago they comfirmed they will be ending weekday kids shows in january. They are considering putting kids shows out for syndication but there are no guarantees. They are going with an adult block in the afternoon slots. I thought they would be giving this time back to the local stations rather than replacing the kids shows.
> This is wrong. Much of the better product was apparently
> sold on a cash basis, but barter syndication of children's
> shows was around prior to 1981.
Some barter product was around prior to 1981.
> Here's a quote from the program director of WGNO-TV in New Orleans, from back > in the seventies: "We don't buy any kids programs. We barter them
> all. The barter product is good quality and it costs us
> absolutely nothing." This quote is from an old article
> photo copied from Variety, and while I don't have the date
> that it was published, it is clear that it was written no
> later than the mid-seventies, and probably in the early
> seventies.
My guess is this sounds more like about 1982 or 83. But it could have been as far back as 1975.
> This varied quite a bit from market to market. While 6 to 8
> hours may have been true in some of the largest markets, in
> the markets I was familiar with (Seattle-Tacoma, Portland,
> OR), it was typically closer to 4 hours: 7 to 9 AM and 3 to
> 5 PM.
Portland had only one independent 12 WPTV and 7-9 AM and 3-5 PM there sounds about right. Seattle had only one independent till 1980 11 KSTW. I know by a983 they were running 2 and a half hours in mornings and 2 and a half hours of kids in afternoons...probably was 2 hours each at some point as well. 13 KCPQ signed on in 1980. Until the fall of 1987 they did not run any childrens shows on weekdays. They ran mostly drama shows, movies, some game shows, other syndicated fare, network oddball shows rejected by affiliates, and religion. KTZZ 22 signed on in 85 and began running 4 to 6 hours a day of kids shows.
In New York City 9 WOR TV ran no kids programming at all in 1984 except for Romper Room 10-11 AM weekdays. 11 WPIX ran kids from 6:30-9 AM and 2:30 to 5 PM weekdays. 5 WNEW TV ran kids shows 6-9 AM and 2 to 5 PM weekdays.
One station that ran too much kids shows was 56 WLVI Boston. They ran cartoons 6-11 AM and 12:30 to 5 PM Weekdays in the Spring of 1986. Fall of 86 they were running cartoons 6-10 AM; 2-6 PM. 38 WSBK ran kids from 6:30-9 AM and 2:30 to 5 PM Weekdays as did 25 WXNE. So it varied.
> Your numbers here are wrong. These shows were typically
> issued with a split of 2 minutes for the syndicator and 4
> minutes for the station, except in the fourth quarter (fall)
> when the syndicator would pick up an extra 30 second spot
> and the split would become 2.5 minutes for the syndicator
> and 3.5 minutes for the station. If you want documentation,
> I can dig out old copies of Television/Radio Age later.
I dont have exact numbers ...your numbers sound right...
> Actually, Scooby Doo was in barter syndication prior to this
> -- I think it went into syndication in either 1979 or 1980,
> and it was always a bartered property from the very
> beginning.
It was in either the fall of 1979 or Winter of 1980. My old new york city listings had Scooby Doo on 11 WPIX February 1980 though not in the Fall of 79. But it could have been available back in 79. I was led to believe Scooby Doo started out as Cash from Hanna Barbara directly...and made barter in 1982. I never knew this for sure. DFS may have had Scooby Doo in the beginning. I know Flintstones was cash prior to 1982. Columbia/Screen Gems had syndication rights until 1982. Then in 1982 DFS got the rights and teh show was barter.
> This may be what those folks are telling you, but they are
> simply using the law as an excuse. Whenever I've tuned in
> to local cartoon broadcasts, what I inevitably see in the
> past couple years is that the local availabilities are
> always filled with public service announcements and promos
> for other programs -- they can't sell the time that they
> have available now. Making more ad time available to local
> stations wouldn't remedy this problem, which is simply that
> advertisers no longer buy time during children's programs at
> the local broadcast level.
You could be right. I have not watched any of these shows in years. I will try to look for myself. I will tape an hour of Kids WB and an hour of syndicated cartoons and time the ads and PSA's. I myself am curious to see how much time is spent on ads.
One factor also was the types of ads allowed to run on kids shows is restricted. Cartoons based on childrens's products no longer can be produced and airing ads for the product..GI Joe or Transformers or Go Bots for example. I was told this as well.
Anyhow I am sad to see so much kids product disappearing fro off air TV. The kids shows seem to make a station look far better than infomercials or religion in such slots.
T
Tom_Desmond
Guest
> It certainly was not enforced in the 70's or 80's. Am unsure
> what, if any limits were. Actually it seemed that most
> stations ran about 7 minutes per 30 minute show. Most 25
> minute shows like I Love Lucy, Brady Bunch, Andy Grifith
> were cut to 22 minutes on most stations. Some stations ran
> pre cut syndicated episodes. Others just cut the first 3
> minute scene, others cut a scene somewhere in the middle,
> others cut a different scene each showing. It seemed to
> depend on the local station. But they certainly seemed to
> run 16 minutes an hour of commercials. I did not mean 21
> minutes....it was more like 18 or 19 minutes...my mistake.
For a long time, 16 minutes was typically the maximum. The NAB code allowed 16 minutes/hour in daytime, 9.5 minutes/hour in primetime (for network affiliates, it was 12 minutes/hour for independents), and 12 minutes/hour for childrens shows during the week (lower on weekends). That went away in the early eighties, but even after that it seemed like advertising loads stayed at or slightly below 16 minutes/hour on most stations.
Today, syndicated reruns of older shows are often pre-edited to allow anywhere from six to eight minutes of commercials in a thirty minute show. And, yeah, I also remember the way stations used to do seemingly random edits from programs to make room for the extra ads. KSTW/11 in Tacoma/Seattle would frequently cut key plot elements and make a complete hash of the programs they aired.
> My guess is this sounds more like about 1982 or 83. But it
> could have been as far back as 1975.
That same article mentions that WGNO was paying $15/run for "Star Trek" reruns at the time. From the full article, it is clear that it is from no later than the mid-seventies, and more likely it is the early seventies. Unfortunately, I didn't write a date on the page when I copied the original article. But considering that I made that copy at least 25 years ago, it is amazing that I even have it anymore...
> Portland had only one independent 12 WPTV and 7-9 AM and 3-5
> PM there sounds about right.
KPTV, not WPTV.
They were joined by independent KECH on channel 22 out of Salem (now Pax) around 1981 or 1982. That station did poorly, and was joined a couple years later by the more successful KPDX/49 in Vancouver, WA.
> Seattle had only one
> independent till 1980 11 KSTW.
Since I grew up in Tacoma, I always make the point of noting that KSTW was licensed to Tacoma. We also did have a second independent, KTVW/13 until late 1974, when the station went bankrupt.
> One station that ran too much kids shows was 56 WLVI Boston.
> They ran cartoons 6-11 AM and 12:30 to 5 PM Weekdays in the
> Spring of 1986.
I've seen some of those schedules posted in the classic TV thread -- very interesting to see it. I'm surprised they didn't just fill in a few more kids shows and go with a daytime kids block from 6 AM to 5 PM. In retrospect, that might have been a good way to compete against the up and coming cable kids channels.
> You could be right. I have not watched any of these shows in
> years. I will try to look for myself. I will tape an hour of
> Kids WB and an hour of syndicated cartoons and time the ads
> and PSA's. I myself am curious to see how much time is spent
> on ads.
My experience is from a year or two back, when I was watching "X-Men: Evolution". KDAF/33 here in Dallas/Fort Worth never ran any paid advertising in the local slots.
> One factor also was the types of ads allowed to run on kids
> shows is restricted. Cartoons based on childrens's products
> no longer can be produced and airing ads for the product..GI
> Joe or Transformers or Go Bots for example. I was told this
> as well.
That is correct, although that rule was in place prior to the nineties, as well. It is just that it wasn't enforced during the eighties.
> Anyhow I am sad to see so much kids product disappearing fro
> off air TV. The kids shows seem to make a station look far
> better than infomercials or religion in such slots.
On this, you and I are definitely in agreement. It's a shame to see the kids shows all go to cable, and I can't help but think that this is ultimately bad for the broadcast TV stations. They're training kids to turn automatically to cable, which could come back and boomerang at broadcasters in the future.
However, there is a small possibility that this could prove to be cyclical and the kids shows may yet make a comeback. After all, kids programming also came close to disappearing from television in the 1973/74 period, when Action for Children's Television's campaign to ban childrens advertising looked like it might succeed. During this era, weekday children's shows on many independents did drop down quite a bit. A schedule that I have for KTNT/11 in Tacoma (from October 1973, shortly before the station became KSTW) shows only ninety minutes of weekdays kids shows on the station at that time. (Tennesse Tuxedo at 2 PM, New Zoo Review at 2:30, Flinstones at 3:30). The rest of the afternoon was filled with kid-friendly sitcoms, which would bypass any threatened advertising restrictions.
Needless to say, the threat receded, and kids TV made a comeback that lasted for over twenty years.
> what, if any limits were. Actually it seemed that most
> stations ran about 7 minutes per 30 minute show. Most 25
> minute shows like I Love Lucy, Brady Bunch, Andy Grifith
> were cut to 22 minutes on most stations. Some stations ran
> pre cut syndicated episodes. Others just cut the first 3
> minute scene, others cut a scene somewhere in the middle,
> others cut a different scene each showing. It seemed to
> depend on the local station. But they certainly seemed to
> run 16 minutes an hour of commercials. I did not mean 21
> minutes....it was more like 18 or 19 minutes...my mistake.
For a long time, 16 minutes was typically the maximum. The NAB code allowed 16 minutes/hour in daytime, 9.5 minutes/hour in primetime (for network affiliates, it was 12 minutes/hour for independents), and 12 minutes/hour for childrens shows during the week (lower on weekends). That went away in the early eighties, but even after that it seemed like advertising loads stayed at or slightly below 16 minutes/hour on most stations.
Today, syndicated reruns of older shows are often pre-edited to allow anywhere from six to eight minutes of commercials in a thirty minute show. And, yeah, I also remember the way stations used to do seemingly random edits from programs to make room for the extra ads. KSTW/11 in Tacoma/Seattle would frequently cut key plot elements and make a complete hash of the programs they aired.
> My guess is this sounds more like about 1982 or 83. But it
> could have been as far back as 1975.
That same article mentions that WGNO was paying $15/run for "Star Trek" reruns at the time. From the full article, it is clear that it is from no later than the mid-seventies, and more likely it is the early seventies. Unfortunately, I didn't write a date on the page when I copied the original article. But considering that I made that copy at least 25 years ago, it is amazing that I even have it anymore...
> Portland had only one independent 12 WPTV and 7-9 AM and 3-5
> PM there sounds about right.
KPTV, not WPTV.
They were joined by independent KECH on channel 22 out of Salem (now Pax) around 1981 or 1982. That station did poorly, and was joined a couple years later by the more successful KPDX/49 in Vancouver, WA.
> Seattle had only one
> independent till 1980 11 KSTW.
Since I grew up in Tacoma, I always make the point of noting that KSTW was licensed to Tacoma. We also did have a second independent, KTVW/13 until late 1974, when the station went bankrupt.
> One station that ran too much kids shows was 56 WLVI Boston.
> They ran cartoons 6-11 AM and 12:30 to 5 PM Weekdays in the
> Spring of 1986.
I've seen some of those schedules posted in the classic TV thread -- very interesting to see it. I'm surprised they didn't just fill in a few more kids shows and go with a daytime kids block from 6 AM to 5 PM. In retrospect, that might have been a good way to compete against the up and coming cable kids channels.
> You could be right. I have not watched any of these shows in
> years. I will try to look for myself. I will tape an hour of
> Kids WB and an hour of syndicated cartoons and time the ads
> and PSA's. I myself am curious to see how much time is spent
> on ads.
My experience is from a year or two back, when I was watching "X-Men: Evolution". KDAF/33 here in Dallas/Fort Worth never ran any paid advertising in the local slots.
> One factor also was the types of ads allowed to run on kids
> shows is restricted. Cartoons based on childrens's products
> no longer can be produced and airing ads for the product..GI
> Joe or Transformers or Go Bots for example. I was told this
> as well.
That is correct, although that rule was in place prior to the nineties, as well. It is just that it wasn't enforced during the eighties.
> Anyhow I am sad to see so much kids product disappearing fro
> off air TV. The kids shows seem to make a station look far
> better than infomercials or religion in such slots.
On this, you and I are definitely in agreement. It's a shame to see the kids shows all go to cable, and I can't help but think that this is ultimately bad for the broadcast TV stations. They're training kids to turn automatically to cable, which could come back and boomerang at broadcasters in the future.
However, there is a small possibility that this could prove to be cyclical and the kids shows may yet make a comeback. After all, kids programming also came close to disappearing from television in the 1973/74 period, when Action for Children's Television's campaign to ban childrens advertising looked like it might succeed. During this era, weekday children's shows on many independents did drop down quite a bit. A schedule that I have for KTNT/11 in Tacoma (from October 1973, shortly before the station became KSTW) shows only ninety minutes of weekdays kids shows on the station at that time. (Tennesse Tuxedo at 2 PM, New Zoo Review at 2:30, Flinstones at 3:30). The rest of the afternoon was filled with kid-friendly sitcoms, which would bypass any threatened advertising restrictions.
Needless to say, the threat receded, and kids TV made a comeback that lasted for over twenty years.
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