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What would the average salary be or what should I expect for being Production Director in market 100-105? 5 station cluster and 10 years experience.
Thanks.
Thanks.
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What is the revenue for the cluster? Are they making budget? Over budget? I've made more in mkt 45 than 22 due to the the smaller having less overhead, larger retail market, no ancillary markets siphoning off revenue, cost of living was less, etc. Lots of factors to consider. With that said... my educated guess...straight prod gig... $22-30k.
With your years of exp, there's no reason that shouldn't pay you somewhere between 30-40....most likely closer to 30. In markets 100-105, with a 5 station cluster, there will be a lot of revenue flowing thru there and I'm sure plenty of prod to do. And you can count on the fact that they will always ask you to do a little more once you're on board...."hey man, how would you like to voicetrack middays on our classic hits station?" Of course, you're not going to say "no," you'll just do it, and they won't give you any more money. If it were me, I would shoot for no less than 35K for the scenario you describe.
I can attest to this... in a Top 75 the pay sucks... 30k. With that said... market 91 paid $40k to start. All depends on the revenue... and even how much the owner/mgmt value the position. Arguably the bigger the company the better the wage (not all the time).
Salaries are much lower these days. Workload higher. More hats. If you want to be in the business expect lower pay. Even the Top 25 don't pay like they used to.
In Cleveland, circa 1998, Creative Director gig, imaging only two stations, paid $80k. Today that same gig is $50k and includes everything but the kitchen sink.
I was in a Top 45 ten years ago, in the SE. A few months after arriving I was offered the same in Detroit for CBS. They offered the same $$$ I was making already. Not only was it commercial prod but they also wanted me to do Traffic/Continuity. I turned them down. Cost of living was a lot less where I was, better quality of life and less work for the money. The allure of the bigger market isn't what it used to be.
Salaries are much lower these days. Workload higher. More hats. If you want to be in the business expect lower pay. Even the Top 25 don't pay like they used to.
In Cleveland, circa 1998, Creative Director gig, imaging only two stations, paid $80k. Today that same gig is $50k and includes everything but the kitchen sink.
I was in a Top 45 ten years ago, in the SE. A few months after arriving I was offered the same in Detroit for CBS. They offered the same $$$ I was making already. Not only was it commercial prod but they also wanted me to do Traffic/Continuity. I turned them down. Cost of living was a lot less where I was, better quality of life and less work for the money. The allure of the bigger market isn't what it used to be.
I'm not sure this fits into this conversation, but it may help paint the perspective.
There was an exposé on TV news earlier this week about the pilots for commuter airlines. Some of them are sleeping in the "pilot's lounge" at the airport because they can't afford a minimal hotel room ($25). The scary line was: "Somebody making $17,000 per year who got four hours of sleep on a sofa at the airport last night may be your pilot."
Enjoy your next flight.
I suspect some radio managers watching that broadcast may be muttering: "Damn! I'm overpaying my production guy!"
There was an exposé on TV news earlier this week about the pilots for commuter airlines. Some of them are sleeping in the "pilot's lounge" at the airport because they can't afford a minimal hotel room ($25). The scary line was: "Somebody making $17,000 per year who got four hours of sleep on a sofa at the airport last night may be your pilot."
Enjoy your next flight.
I suspect some radio managers watching that broadcast may be muttering: "Damn! I'm overpaying my production guy!"
Goat Rodeo Cowboy said:
The crash in Buffalo a couple of years ago was flown by a couple of these underpaid pilots. It really is amazing how little they make for the level of responsibility. I guess the idea is that until they pay their dues, they have to work for peanuts.
re: pilots..... Wild. I can recall my buddy's father, who in the early 80s flew for American Airlines, made about $100k then. The stress got to him and he left to be... wait for it... a lawyer. Kid you not.
pellmell is right... but... does your secretary get to wear sandals and shorts to work? ;D I'd include swag but that doesn't really exist anymore. With CC if over $25 or $30 you get 1099'd. Not worth it anymore.
We all know radio is a sickness. I for one am essentially done with it. Doing my job, taking the paycheck but investing in my VO/Prod biz to position myself to be able to leave on my terms... or if pushed out (again) to be sure I'll be ok.
pellmell is right... but... does your secretary get to wear sandals and shorts to work? ;D I'd include swag but that doesn't really exist anymore. With CC if over $25 or $30 you get 1099'd. Not worth it anymore.
We all know radio is a sickness. I for one am essentially done with it. Doing my job, taking the paycheck but investing in my VO/Prod biz to position myself to be able to leave on my terms... or if pushed out (again) to be sure I'll be ok.
Yikes, 30 years ago I was making 40K in market 200+.
10 years ago (took me far too long) I got out of the business.
Now making 3 times as much and great benefits.
Still amazes me people will work harder for less $.
Trust me, management is not looking at you with respect for the love of the business, you are looked at as a loser. Radio is a hobby not a career.
10 years ago (took me far too long) I got out of the business.
Now making 3 times as much and great benefits.
Still amazes me people will work harder for less $.
Trust me, management is not looking at you with respect for the love of the business, you are looked at as a loser. Radio is a hobby not a career.
You are preaching to the chior pal. I started 35-years ago, made terrific money at times, was under appreciated ALL of the time, and/but never regreted getting up each day to hit the mark. For me, it wasn't always about the dollar. It was more of an uncontrolable desire to produce creative/memorable radio for the masses.
I don't drag myself from bed horrified with the idea of spending the day at something I hate...regardless of the money involved. Instead, I do what I love and look forward to each trip to the studio. On occasion, I make a positive difference for people. On other occasions, I make a fool of myself. It goes with the game.
I'm 60-years old, living a little better than hand to mouth, and in constant fear that "the powers that be" may cut my throat in a moments notice. But I'm secure in the knowledge that my experience and talent will carry me to the next stick with a certain confidence. It being that I will always be able to find a place on the air and in the mix. This is the business that I have chosen.
In short, I am and always have been able to find true happiness in my career.
I may not have the ability to pay for your shoe laces my friend but I am certainly no loser. One must quit to lose.
On the contrary, I am one of the privledged few who have been able to hang on through the good and bad...thick and thin. "I am" and alwyas have been a professional broadcaster... No regrets.
I don't drag myself from bed horrified with the idea of spending the day at something I hate...regardless of the money involved. Instead, I do what I love and look forward to each trip to the studio. On occasion, I make a positive difference for people. On other occasions, I make a fool of myself. It goes with the game.
I'm 60-years old, living a little better than hand to mouth, and in constant fear that "the powers that be" may cut my throat in a moments notice. But I'm secure in the knowledge that my experience and talent will carry me to the next stick with a certain confidence. It being that I will always be able to find a place on the air and in the mix. This is the business that I have chosen.
In short, I am and always have been able to find true happiness in my career.
I may not have the ability to pay for your shoe laces my friend but I am certainly no loser. One must quit to lose.
On the contrary, I am one of the privledged few who have been able to hang on through the good and bad...thick and thin. "I am" and alwyas have been a professional broadcaster... No regrets.
JimmyHill said:
If you are happy, then I am happy for you.
If the definition of one who loses is one who quits radio, then I am proud to tell you I am a loser.
I got tired of my kids moving in the middle of a school year. I got tired of my kids having to make new friends every 18 to 30 months. Having you kids end up eventually as drug addicts or something became my idea what it would be like to be a loser.
When I looked around and realized how many of my co-workers were divorced, or were facing having a head-on collision with divorce any day now, I decided maybe that would be a bigger definition of "loser" than leaving the radio business.
I am looking forward to wedding anniversary #56 in a few months. I have three seemingly well adjusted children ranging in age from 42 to 54, none of whom seem to be wearing a "loser" sign hanging around their neck.
I always thought I would return to the business when we became empty-nesters.... and I worked real hard for six years trying to accomplish that.... and since I failed at that... I don't know if that makes me a winner or a loser. I suspect if I had purchased the station in 2004 that I was ready to jump on but someone else went first, The economy of the last two years would have made me a certified loser in that market.
If you are happy, then I am happy for you.
GRC: Bravo, sir! A sincere standing ovation to you (and yours)!
You're definitely a winner in my book...
You're definitely a winner in my book...
My marriage lasted for 31-years and was very happy until my Wife passed. My oldest Son is a retired Marine Captain. and currently works for the Illinois State Police. My youngest Son spent 6-years serving our country (after receiving his bach from Illinois State U) and is currently employed as a police officer in MO. Hardly drug addicts or losers!
They both (by the way) worked part time in the industry as board ops.
My longest employment time with a station was 12-years and the shortest was 5. Most of this in the St. Louis & Chicago market...so moving around was not an issue with us.
You obviously retained the nagging desire for the industry since you attempted to re-join the workforce. Sorry to hear that it did not work out for you.
You also seem a bit disgruntled about the situation as indicated in your unfounded generalization about radio people. Sorry to say that I don't think YOU are a very happy guy.
Outside looking in (for what ever reason) can do that to us. Yes sir...I am VERY happy on the inside...Thank you for the good wishes.
Best regards...
They both (by the way) worked part time in the industry as board ops.
My longest employment time with a station was 12-years and the shortest was 5. Most of this in the St. Louis & Chicago market...so moving around was not an issue with us.
You obviously retained the nagging desire for the industry since you attempted to re-join the workforce. Sorry to hear that it did not work out for you.
You also seem a bit disgruntled about the situation as indicated in your unfounded generalization about radio people. Sorry to say that I don't think YOU are a very happy guy.
Outside looking in (for what ever reason) can do that to us. Yes sir...I am VERY happy on the inside...Thank you for the good wishes.
Best regards...
JimmyHill said:
Turn'about is fair play. You just did for me what I sometimes to for people in the discussions: you held up a mirror and let me see what I look like, what I sound like to the other person. I could have phrased my message a bit more carefully. If you and I were to share a table at a seminar for a couple of days, and work together on a project for a week, I think you would back up and say: "Oh, he IS a happy guy. He is impatient as all get out but has pretty well overcome that, and he started kind of down in the hole somewhere and has spent his life reaching for the stars. Along with those in the business who just drift through enjoying the radio scene, there are a lot of us who were reaching for the stars. Some found their star. Some of us have had to accept the fact that we are not blessed with all the traits needed to be a star catcher. (Kind of like being a quarterback... part of it is training, maybe more of it is inborn skills and instinct.)
I never intended to stay out of the business for any length of time. The bone-head stubborn rule I made for myself was that I would not return until MY NAME was THE name, or ONE of the names in Transfer of Ownership application at the FCC.
I had a lengthy phone chat with my oldest child yesterday. I see a lot of me in her.... and she was telling me what she wished someone had explained to her when she left high school for college. She studied the wrong thing to get where she is now.... doing something she seems to love and is good at.
I can sack up all the unhappiness in my life in a very small bag and when you and I sort through it, this is what we find: I was a little country boy who needed a lot more mentors who could help me see the world around me instead of having to slowly make all the explorations and mistakes known to mankind.
I hope every person reading this who is working in radio today will make sure your "curiosity gain-control" is turned up to maximum every day of your life. There are people you bump into every day who are willing to share hints and secrets with you. But beyond that.... you have to be assertive and seek out even more people. Why make all the mistakes in life on your own... when you can quickly own the lessons others have learned.
And that is how this thread started out. "What should I expect to be able to make if my radio job is <fill in the blank here>?"
God I love GRC! He has a wisdom that only can be soaked up with time, and not accidentally found or stumbled on. He is a real find around here.
As far as salaries. The best line I ever heard as this: "The job pays this much...the fact that you are doing it doesn't change that figure..If you don't want it, please vacate my building and let someone in who wants to be here...and if you think there isn't anyone waiting in line..you are an idiot..."
That very sentiment was told to me by a GM in Florida when I went in to ask for a minimal increase (50 bucks a month) after being there for over 4 years. I was crushed, but my dad said that I made my "deal" with them when I started and there are no guarentees of appreciation in the workplace. So the bottom line is this. Is it a place you want to work? Is it something you love to do? Would you do it for free if need be? Don't worry about the salary. Treat the paycheck as a gift, and the use of the studio as a fringe benefit. Then do like VoDood and start crafting a career while you work for a living.
Back to the good ol' Goat Rodeo Cowboy..I guess the biggest, and most bitter pill to swallow is the fact (and it is a fact) that OWNING a radio station is nearly the same as paying a doctor to make you ill. For the privelege of owning a radio station the operator is faced with unreliable employees, outragous insurance and regulatory fees, royalty payments, electric bills, equipment failures, transmitter repairs phone charges,state taxes, license fees, and on and on and on..etc
And all for the shot a getting somebody..anybody to listen, then trying to explain to a potential advertiser that your listner(s) will respond to his advertisement that he has to pay money to you for. Multiply that by 30 or 40 solid clients that you need to sell in order to break even and it becomes a real challenge to keep the lights on. The really sad thing is that in some small and medium market situations there really are only about 20 folks tuned in at any given time. All that expense, and aggrivation just doesn't seem worth it..especially when you see some kid in his bedroom hitting listener stats in the thousands with his Live 365 station on the internet.
Depressing..yup..but we love this beast
As far as salaries. The best line I ever heard as this: "The job pays this much...the fact that you are doing it doesn't change that figure..If you don't want it, please vacate my building and let someone in who wants to be here...and if you think there isn't anyone waiting in line..you are an idiot..."
That very sentiment was told to me by a GM in Florida when I went in to ask for a minimal increase (50 bucks a month) after being there for over 4 years. I was crushed, but my dad said that I made my "deal" with them when I started and there are no guarentees of appreciation in the workplace. So the bottom line is this. Is it a place you want to work? Is it something you love to do? Would you do it for free if need be? Don't worry about the salary. Treat the paycheck as a gift, and the use of the studio as a fringe benefit. Then do like VoDood and start crafting a career while you work for a living.
Back to the good ol' Goat Rodeo Cowboy..I guess the biggest, and most bitter pill to swallow is the fact (and it is a fact) that OWNING a radio station is nearly the same as paying a doctor to make you ill. For the privelege of owning a radio station the operator is faced with unreliable employees, outragous insurance and regulatory fees, royalty payments, electric bills, equipment failures, transmitter repairs phone charges,state taxes, license fees, and on and on and on..etc
And all for the shot a getting somebody..anybody to listen, then trying to explain to a potential advertiser that your listner(s) will respond to his advertisement that he has to pay money to you for. Multiply that by 30 or 40 solid clients that you need to sell in order to break even and it becomes a real challenge to keep the lights on. The really sad thing is that in some small and medium market situations there really are only about 20 folks tuned in at any given time. All that expense, and aggrivation just doesn't seem worth it..especially when you see some kid in his bedroom hitting listener stats in the thousands with his Live 365 station on the internet.
Depressing..yup..but we love this beast
Excellent post Jeff, and I hear ya on the GRC. He's at his best in TIO, I especially enjoy his posts in that forum.
My wife gave me a quote many years ago, and I don't know where it originated, but every radio person needs to take it to heart and that is: "You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate."
The time to get what you want is when you're negotiating your starting package. If what they're offering to start isn't where you need to be, see if you can negotiate a performance based raise after a certain period, say 6-months to a year. Vacation time, bonuses, commisions on spec spots that close the deal, the time to pitch for all of these things is at the beginning. Once you're in, it becomes very hard to claw your way up to where you want.
I've been watching the union debate taking place in state houses across the country. This debate further illustrates the importance of getting what you want UP FRONT and in writing. I feel for many of these union workers who negotiated in good faith, put off immediate monetary reward in exchange for deferred pension benefits, only to have their employers renege on that promise. Not trying to be political, but it is a perfect example to get what you want/need NOW.
Good luck.
My wife gave me a quote many years ago, and I don't know where it originated, but every radio person needs to take it to heart and that is: "You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate."
The time to get what you want is when you're negotiating your starting package. If what they're offering to start isn't where you need to be, see if you can negotiate a performance based raise after a certain period, say 6-months to a year. Vacation time, bonuses, commisions on spec spots that close the deal, the time to pitch for all of these things is at the beginning. Once you're in, it becomes very hard to claw your way up to where you want.
I've been watching the union debate taking place in state houses across the country. This debate further illustrates the importance of getting what you want UP FRONT and in writing. I feel for many of these union workers who negotiated in good faith, put off immediate monetary reward in exchange for deferred pension benefits, only to have their employers renege on that promise. Not trying to be political, but it is a perfect example to get what you want/need NOW.
Good luck.
robnokshus06 said:
I watch the "union debate" with much personal interest. I used to live in Indiana and have spent some time in the gallery there during General Assembly and participated (with testimony) at some committee hearings. I am just amazed at the change in the political atmosphere in that state in the last 30 - 40 years.
I have children in Wisconsin so I gulp in the whole enchilada on that fight. I'll be glad when it finally settles down and gives birth to something. I am currently addicted to cable TV channels on that one and my studio work and other personal interests are being neglected.
No matter what a person's politics may be, it is instructive to take a look at the sea-change in the United Auto Workers union in recent years. As the American auto industry teetered on the edge of implosion, the president of the union made some of his members angry but he took off his jacket, rolled up his sleeves, and sat down with the manufacturers as said: It looks like were in this together. Let's figure out what labor needs to do to save YOU and save OURSELVES.
Radio people as a whole do NOT have an organization to front the struggle. The radio industry has changed in the last 40 years as rapidly and an radically as the automobile business has. Like the computer programmer work and like a lot of people in architecture, there is no longer a lifestyle available where you go to work with the right company and you put in a career. Some of you who participate in this forum had RADIO JOBS back in the heyday of a previous kind of radio. You can survive and succeed particularly if you developed good contacts during those days which gives you a "foot in the door" of many opportunities. What is lacking is a good pantry full of knowledge to pass along to the younger folks who are trying to build a business of voice-overs and production but never worked with any of the people currently working on the buyer side of the transaction. Besides learning good voice technique and learning good studio technical skills, these people are having to "hack a trail through the forest" of today's industry just like Daniel Boone heading over the Appalachians the first time. There are few or no trail markers. (Would Daniel Boone call the thru-hikers on the AT a bunch of sissies? ;D ).
The union people had the union managing their retirement funding for them. If you work for a large company you will find your H.R. Department pulling together a good vehicle to haul your retirement savings (401k, etc) for you. If you are young and you are going to hack your way through self employment and semi-self employment and some employment from time to time at radio stations, nobody is hauling your retirement! If you could look over my shoulder as I go on line to monitor my own funds, you would understand why I somewhat SHOUTED that last phrase.
By the way, I appreciate the kind words about my posts. When I get something close to an equal number of kind words to match those who attempt to "verbally skin me alive" I assume I am close to staying on the marked trail. I hope to run into D. Boone one of these days on the trail.
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