Same Old Same Old About FCC Regs.

[WCWalker]

It is possible that I was in touch with someone from Fox Sports 1650 after this incident but I don't really recall. Most likely I spoke to someone that was indirectly related to the station but familiar with the problem. But this does not change the outcome. The problem was corrected and to this day, Fox Sports 1650 does continue to broadcast. Most likely then, Fox Sports 1650 went from a single Rangemaster to a Cluster in late 2007.

So, what is the issue? You are attempting to stir up a problem where none exists.

 

[rfry]

Most likely then, Fox Sports 1650 went from a single Rangemaster to a Cluster in late 2007. So, what is the issue?

Just pointing out that by your own past post, the FCC has issued an NOUO to at least one user of a Part 15 AM certified transmitter -- which is different than you recently posted here.

//

 

[XRQKFM]

Fox Sports 1650, currently operates two Rangemaster transmitters with one fed via a QWEST telco circuit according to a source of mine who lives there in Flagstaff. My source has visited with the owner of Fox Sports 1650 who prefers to keep a low profile; because of the R.Fry busybody types who go looking for trouble. Fox Sports 1650, as mentioned thrives in the market; coming in third in local surveys.

Just pointing out that by your own past post, the FCC has issued an NOUO to at least one user of a Part 15 AM certified transmitter

Out of how many part 15 AM stations on the air? The NOUO is like a cop issuing a fix it ticket for a burned out taillight;It's no big deal! Just something to nitpick over!

No matter where you go in life, you are going to find those who enjoy building things up. Then there are those who enjoy tearing things down; I use to live in a town where you had those busybodies that just had to get into every bodies business. If it's not the flagpole, then its the curtains or the way you cut the grass that these types find a need to insert themselves. In school they are the tattletale who ran to the teacher for everything; at work they are the backstabbing brown nosing types we all enjoy working with! Even out in the middle of nowhere, we have those that go out of their way to make trouble for their neighbors.

Because those miserable busybodies are everywhere; if you are going to make money with your radio station, it better be a certified transmitter you are broadcasting with. You can bank on someone causing trouble for your new venture, and Williams point has always been you will be in a better position with the Feds if it's a certified transmitter and you have made a reasonable effort to ground it properly.

Without a few of us rebels; America, would have never happened.
It would be King Obama you bow too.


Steve
www.radiobrandy.com

 

[radioman148]

I've never seen such nitpicking than what I see on this board.
Some people need to find other things to do.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

I guess we ALL need to chill out a little bit. Actually there are many other topics on Radio-Info boards that also get nit-picky. "Community Radio" certainly gets it's share of those "nit" collections. Anything transmitter related "serves at the mercy and pleasure" of the regulatory system. Any time you work with an activity that must accommodate regulations (truck driving, airplane flying, manufacturing prescription drugs, mining coal, and work place OSHA regs) people divide into two camps. Those who have the meticulous mind that can wrap around the details of written regulations vs. freewheeling minds who feel that every regulation deserves a big, truck-size loop-hole. And a lot of us fall in between the two extremes with some custom blend of those two mind-sets.

This conversation really got to a narrow pass in the canyon before we figured out XRKQFM uses Part 15 in a totally different way than most people who post here do. The traditional issue is someone running a miniature radio station from inside the space where they live, serving the neighborhood around their dwelling-place/apartment with scheduled entertainment of some sort. Call it a pretend radio station, call it a wanna-be, call it a practice, warm-up radio station. This kind of set up stays on the air for longer periods of time from a fixed location, and during week-days when the FCC in its normal working hours can get a reliable measurement of actual signal strength. Sitting duck for enforcement. What little FCC information posted here seems to tell us: FCC knocks on door, explains their view, sends letter, broadcaster says "oops" and the matter never nets anything beyond the warning letter... if one is sent.

XRKQFM describes a totally different situation: Temporary special events. Probably on weekends more often than not. Often a short duration event. (8 hours or less). Unless he goes back to the same shopping center week after week after week, the FCC has trouble getting there before he folds his tent and moves on. FCC unless they are really riled up, is not likely to send someone on the week end. And they know from whatever complaint they may have received that by the time they get there he may be shutting down before they can get measurements taken carefully enough to stand up in court.

Beyond that, when XRKQFM fleshed out his story, it sounds like he stays pretty much inside the box set up by the regulations, particularly when it comes to length of ground. I can see where he feels that he is not a violator of the rules, and if caught and reprimanded by an FCC person, would enter into serious conversation and promptly make arrangements to bring any problems in line.

I gather some of the rest of you may be skating on thinner ice, and when someone points out how thin your ice is, your skin turns out to be equally thin.

Forecast for tomorrow: More mild abrasions and thin skin. Do your best to keep cool.

 

[radioman148]

In the 60s I had my first experience with Part 15. I bought a Allied knight kit AM radio transmitter. The rules were about the same. As I recall you were not suppose to use a wire longer than 10 ft. which they supplied. I had a friend who had one also--lived about a mile away.
I never heard of 3 meter whip antennas so I ran about 100 ft of bell wire that I bought at a hardware store around the house. Gave me about half mile of coverage. I walked around the area while I had records playing to test the coverage. Everybody in my neighborhood listened as I broadcasted everynight at least 2 hours of rock & roll records using 2 turntables a mixer & tape recorder. & read the news out of the newspaper with the sound effect of a teletype in the background from the tape recorder. I even broadcast NBC news on the hour patched thru the mixer from the local NBC station.
I did this for a year or two in my early teens and had a great time. Never heard from the FCC and got nothing but compliments from my friends & neighbors.
Did it again in the early 70s in my college dorm running about 100 ft of wire down the side of the building. Had more students listening to my station than the schools station. Even the school authorities knew about us.
Never had a complaint or a whisper from the FCC. Also never broadcasted vulgarities, or any nasty stuff just had fun.
I realize this is 2009, but my point is that for a little operation like that where I was just having fun, and not interfering with anyone, there were never any problems. Never even thought of the FCC.
BTW: in every instance I broadcasted in the lower end or center of the AM band. Nobody heard of the ex band back then.

 

[XRQKFM]

Goat Rodeo Cowboy summed it up really well as to how we operate our part 15 AM stations. I also fully support and encourage the home & independent broadcaster where innovation is allowed to flourish. I don't take the hammer and sickle approach to new broadcasters, but offer constructive advice on how to do it without going crazy. I know from real life experience, that broadcasting in the average track neighborhood with anything over 1 watt is asking for trouble and is irresponsible. Just like driving 55 mph in a residential neighborhood with children playing is irresponsible; you might kill a child darting across the street, as one woman just did in our area.

The transmitter with more than a watt is going to be overloading radios in nearby homes, denying those people the right to listen to the station they choose. When I get asked and I get asked often how to set a 25 watt or 100 watt transmitter in a residential neighborhood, I back them way down in terms they will understand and appreciate. Most end up with a 100 milliwatts and very happy with the results; no matter which country they live in.

Never had a complaint or a whisper from the FCC. Also never broadcasted vulgarities, or any nasty stuff just had fun.

There are thousands upon thousands of home broadcasters being responsible just like radioman; never broadcast vulgarities, or any nasty stuff just having fun causing no harm to anyone while providing a service. Who is going to have a problem with responsible broadcasting like that? Most true radio people are not; because they all did it themselves as teens and young adults. People like R.Fry, will never understand us, because they are not broadcasters or radio people with a passion for broadcasting. R.Fry was an engineer; who worked for RCA (an old NAB member) on the manufacturing side. R.Fry will never understand our calling and love for radio.

I have lived radioman's story, as a teen right down to the bell wire; the only difference is mine was a Graymark transmitter instead. Greatstart, who post here started doing it when he was 13, like myself had a true passion for radio and still does. I personally would rather see young people engaged in broadcasting or model railroading etc. than getting high, spending endless hours parked in front a picture tube.

Full time Part 15 AM broadcasting is a viable business that can pay real dollars; just as my utility broadcasting business does. The key is networking a cluster of transmitters or modulators together, to grow your operation; you are not limited to just AM broadcasting. Fox Sports 1650AM, also has cable carriage on channel 99 with a slate ID, covering the at home community via the cable and over the air covers the mobile listeners.

Now that I have entered into retirement, full time broadcasting is to time consuming. My business allows me to cut back to a few days a week, and keep some jingle in my pocket. I have a few people who don't mind making a living cutting spots and setting up transmitters on the weekends and special events. This is a big country, I hope others can make a living doing the same thing if they wish.



Steve
www.radiobrandy.com
Retired and hitting the road!

 

[rfry]

I've never seen such nitpicking than what I see on this board.

My posts describe compliant Part 15 systems based on the laws of physics with respect to Part 15 regulations.

They could not be defined accurately as nitpicking by anyone wanting to comply with Part 15.

Part 15 Rules may use simple language, but that doesn't mean that the underlying science is simple, and/or easy to understand and apply.

//

 

[WCWalker]

I've never seen such nitpicking than what I see on this board.

My posts describe compliant Part 15 systems based on the laws of physics with respect to Part 15 regulations.

They could not be defined accurately as nitpicking by anyone wanting to comply with Part 15.

Part 15 Rules may use simple language, but that doesn't mean that the underlying science is simple, and/or easy to understand and apply.

//

Yawn. Same old song and dance.

 

[radiopilot]

I've never seen such nitpicking than what I see on this board.

My posts describe compliant Part 15 systems based on the laws of physics with respect to Part 15 regulations.

They could not be defined accurately as nitpicking by anyone wanting to comply with Part 15.

Part 15 Rules may use simple language, but that doesn't mean that the underlying science is simple, and/or easy to understand and apply.

//

That's just it in a nutshell... Part 15 was supposed to be less technical than Part 74... it was supposed to allow non-technical people access to the airwaves until technical wanna-be-gods like those above took the simple rules and twisted it to where you now need a PHD to understand them... that wasn't the intent of the Part15 rules at least for AM/FM under the rules.

Most of the hobbyist/broadcasters have some technical background running the AM/FM transmitters under the rules, most are following the Part15 rules more or less, it's the pirates and otherwise non-technical types that run off and buy an EBAY 5 watt FM transmitter or the guy that turns on a TIS AM transmitter that gets the rest into trouble with the FCC.

The rest are in trouble with the FCC because they stepped on someone's toes and or interfered with some licensed station which most Part15 users at least on this and other boards are NOT doing.

Save your charts and scientific notations for the NAB/FCC award of the year and or the Nobel prize if you must.

William Walker sums it up just fine!

Radiopilot

 

[radioman148]

>>Save your charts and scientific notations for the NAB/FCC award of the year and or the Nobel prize if you must.

William Walker sums it up just fine!>>

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Tom Wells]

As someone with the "radio" bug and the engineering bug as well, I'm going to once again defend Mr Fry.
You may find his steadfast position bothersome, but he neatly and accurately represents the inflexibility of the underlying physics,
the years of engineering and dealing with FCC type compliance, and the certainty one must have about their operating specs to be within
FCC limits and standards.
He's not doing this to spoil anyone's party, he clarifying the intent of the regulation.

The intent is to make sure this service causes NO interference with ANY licensed user of the spectrum.
This could be setting up 10khz over from the next town over AM operation, and even if you were in spec, but interfered with
your neighbor's reception of the other station. You could be told to cease for that reason, or too much splatter, harmonics, etc.
I wish there were as much concern over the "UNintented radiating devices" such as lamp dimmers, switching mode power supplies,
computers, screen displays, etc, etc. The FCC could make millions fining the manufacurers of these garbage producers.
Can't really figure out why they never stopped it. Maybe I should write Obama and get some the stimulus money appllied
to an RF-EPA, to bring all this (expletive) cleaned up, There'd be LOTS of jobs doing that.

You can read rules to figure out the best application possible.
My AM transmitter is at the basement wall, and has a 1 foot ground to a water pipe.
3 meter copper pipe is just outside the wall at ground level.

Nothing in the regulations prohibits the improvements that can be added to that water pipe ground.
Or any other ground. Good AM engineering suggests ground mounting with as short a lead as possible to ground is the ideal.
Any other arrangement (with such a low power) means that your feedline/ground wire radiation will be a considerable
percentage of radiated power, and in many cases will be subtracting from effective range of transmisson.
Unless you get the 40 foot ground wire down from rooftop, which will be doing much more to radiate than the 3 m whip.

Wouldn't ancient balanced 2-wire twisted be a better choice for a remote AM antenna? Not sure what impedance that stuff presents,
but it doesn't pick up noise or radiate well along its length.
I'd think you could tune a vertical split 4.5 ft copper pipe, center fed by the twisted wire with a stub.
It would be a mini-franklin, but if twisted wire has essentially no radiation, would this be permitted?

I'm thinking there may be some advantage to roof-height mounting of this type of antenna in a dense neighborhood such as mine.

As it is, I am sad and happy when I hear my signal drop off at half a mile.
The limit of about 1 watt before you show up as an uninvited guest in your neighbor's phone is about right.

If Mr Fry didn't have the radio bug, he wouldn't be here!

 

[radioman148]

>>I wish there were as much concern over the "UNintented radiating devices" such as lamp dimmers, switching mode power supplies,
computers, screen displays, etc, etc. The FCC could make millions fining the manufacurers of these garbage producers>>

Excellent point!

 

[radiopilot]

>>I wish there were as much concern over the "UNintented radiating devices" such as lamp dimmers, switching mode power supplies,
computers, screen displays, etc, etc. The FCC could make millions fining the manufacurers of these garbage producers>>

Excellent point!

Tom has some well found points but under the Part15 rules these devices are allowed whether we like it or not, same for the rules governing Part15 AM/FM transmitters and these devices are allowed also...

Mr. Fry is as intelligent as any engineer on these boards but they don't post constantly the same old grounding/power issue that Mr. Fry does whenever someone posts about part15 use.

Surely Mr. Fry engineering knowledge is best put to use on the Part 73 rules instead.

Radiopilot

 

[rfry]

As someone with the "radio" bug and the engineering bug as well, I'm going to once again defend Mr Fry. etc

My thanks to you, and the few others who did so.

Wouldn't ancient balanced 2-wire twisted be a better choice for a remote AM antenna? Not sure what impedance that stuff presents, but it doesn't pick up noise or radiate well along its length. I'd think you could tune a vertical split 4.5 ft copper pipe, center fed by the twisted wire with a stub.

A while ago I did a study of various forms of short vertical radiators that may or may not be allowed under the present wording of Part 15 AM, linked below. The most questionable part legally would be the long run of transmission line (feedline) needed for some of them - whether or not it radiated.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h85/rfry-100/FourPart15AMAntennasCompared.gif

//

 

[Rattan]

Out of curiosity, what place does anyone here have telling anyone else how they should spend their hobby time?

As I've pointed out before, Rich puts a considerable amount of time and work into the part 15 hobby with calculations, emulations, answering questions, giving thoughts on "what-if" scenarios. While the ground wire debates are a place where he nearly always states his consistent POV, I have seen him answer many other questions about other topics of radio and electronics theory applying to part 15 and getting the occasional "Thanks Rich" when the people who asked are polite enough to remember to give it.

Speaking purely from personal experience, I can recall Rich Fry spending a considerable amount of time answering *my* questions over the years or explaining points of theory I was a bit hazy on. I appreciate that, and I've tried to remember to say "thank you". I hope I haven't missed any.

This board tends to be particularly bad for people going into "personal attack mode" when they disagree. It doesn't have to be that way.

Have we seen Rich suggesting that someone's time might be better spent in part 95 than part 15? Have we seen him telling anyone to consider gardening because they don't have what it takes for an interest in radio?

Rich answers more questions about radio theory in general and as it applies to part 15 than most of the people who might think they have more of the "radio bug" do. even if you put them all together. Oh, there are some that do really try to help out when people are trying to figure something out or to get a better understanding. But they are few compared to the ones that will happily gripe about Rich but rarely offer anything constructive to any discussion themselves.

Daniel

 

[WCWalker]

Rattan. And what place does Fry have claiming he's an expert on the subject of Part 15 AM when he has NO practical hands on experience with these transmitters? Believe it or not he is dead wrong about his claim that a FSM can accurately read even the smallest amounts of power from a Part 15 AM transmitter. They cannot. And I have more than one source that has confirmed this including people at the FCC, other broadcast engineers and my own personal station engineer that has far more experience with Part 15 AM and radio in general than Fry. Fry simply pulls out books and starts quoting from it thinking that these theories which apply to considerable amounts of power on the AM dial will also work for Part 15 AM. They do not.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Friends: This conversation is getting totally out of hand.

I've read Mr. Fry's resume. I participate in another discussion group on the Internet that is populated by broadcast "engineers" and Mr. Fry participates in that group. I've read a number of his posts in this other setting where professional expertise is so plentiful it just flows over the top of the bucket so to speak.

Mr. Fry is delivering facts some of you do not like. That does not excuse the personal attacks on him. With some adult behavior we might all learn a lot, including Mr. Fry. You might try it. I have learned by analyzing what he writes.

 

[radioman148]

I'm not questioning Mr Fry's knowledge as I'm sure he is an expert in his field.
I just find it very curious that he always seems to be so eager to speak so negatively about others experimenting with part 15 equipment.
I'm all in favor of people being informed of the right & legal ways of participating. However, the same stuff over & over gets tedious at best. If someone screws up & breaks the law it's their problem not Mr Fry's or anyone elses.

 

[Rattan]

William C. Walker - I have no experience with anything like a Pontiac FSM such as the FCC uses. If you do or you know people who do and you disagree with Mr Fry's POV, then by all means contest it and state your info and maybe a healthy but polite debate could get rolling that people could learn from and think on.

We don't all have to agree on everything. I know I disagree with plenty I see on this board and others. But that doesn't mean I should lash out at people who say things I disagree with or disrespect anyone just because our points of view may not match up.

I don't know whether or not Mr Fry has done any experiments with part 15 AM transmitters. But I know he's done a lot of calculations for folks who have. The various charts and graphs and emulations he works up are at least careful and well researched theory and math. I know he's taken plenty of time sometimes to answer questions I've asked or to explain things I was hazy on. So at least so far as I'm concerned personally, he's earned some respect.

Anyway, it's possible to disagree or even argue with someone and still keep it polite and respectful. I think we all deserve that much consideration.

Daniel