Same Old Same Old About FCC Regs.

[WCWalker]

Well, Fry here is the official dictionary meaning of the word "alternative" and perhaps you can now figure out the context in which it is used in this rule and how it applies to Part 15 AM. etc

In this context the statements of the FCC as linked/quoted in reply #125 in this thread are the most appropriate source for the definition.

Edit: Also note that walking vs. riding may apply to travel to the same destination.

//

No, it does not. You are the only person that believes this and even the FCC does not believe this otherwise, as LibertyNT pointed out, virtually every Part 15 AM station using a Type Accepted transmitter under rule 15.219 would be in violation of the rules.

Now since the FCC is not issuing NOUO's or shutting down these stations it is apparent you are wrong.

 

[LibertyNT]

Half a year, huh? Wow-wee.

I think this message-writing urination contest has just been scheduled for inclusion in the Guinness Book of Records. Seems like it has been going on for at least six months. ;D

Hey Half a year is better than no experience at all
but i Do think William C Walker has much more understanding of Part 15 than Mr. Fry does.

 

[XRQKFM]

i Do think William C Walker has much more understanding of Part 15 than Mr. Fry does.

That goes without question! William is living in the real world of part 15 AM broadcasting.


Steve
www.outlawradio.us

 

[rfry]

And again, even if Fry does not want to believe it, the very reason rule 15.219 was created was because it is virtually impossible to get an accurate reading of field strength from a Part 15 AM transmitter...

The link below leads to a set of medium-wave field strength measurements. The little circles on the chart show the actual field strengths measured at various distances.

Values of around 400 microvolts/meter were measured out near 20 kilometers.

A Part 15 AM setup can produce fields much higher than 400 microvolts/meter close to the antenna. Therefore it is not "virtually impossible" to measure them.

It doesn't matter to a field intensity meter exactly what transmitter/antenna system produces the field strength it measures. All it responds to is the field, itself.

As to the accuracy of the measurement, notice that the fields in this chart that are within 1 km of the antenna are very close to the theoretical maximum (inverse distance) field over a perfect ground, for that radiated power. The measured fields depart more and more from the inverse distance value at greater distances, and for poorer ground conductivities.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h85/rfry-100/MWFieldIntensityMeasurement.jpg

//

 

[WCWalker]

Perhaps they can be measured accurately in an FCC lab, but clearly not in the field. My experience and that of others proves it.

 

[rfry]

Perhaps they can be measured accurately in an FCC lab, but clearly not in the field. My experience and that of others proves it.

Notice from the chart title that the measurements were of a full-size, 1/4-wave monopole on 1680 kHz, and were taken at distances up to nearly 20 kilometers (12.4 miles) away.

No "test lab" is that large.

The site was located in open country near Evergreen Hills, Virginia.

//

 

[WCWalker]

Open country away from potential interference causing devices. Since Part 15 stations are located in urban, suburban areas or when in rural areas. in close proximity to other Part 15 devices that give off RF and other man made interference, it makes it impossible to get an accurate reading of these devices.

 

[rfry]

Open country away from potential interference causing devices. Since Part 15 stations are located in urban, suburban areas or when in rural areas. in close proximity to other Part 15 devices that give off RF and other man made interference, it makes it impossible to get an accurate reading of these devices.

The FCC typically measures the field strengths of Part 15 stations close enough to their antennas that the effects of "urban clutter" and earth conductivity on the field at that point are minimal.

And the fields the FCC measures there typically are not "borderline" out of compliance for the NOUO they issue-- they a greatly out of compliance -- more than environmental effects alone could account for.

//

 

[rfry]

Addendum to my most recent post in this thread (Reply 147)...

The mere fact that the field strength meter* used to measure the values in the chart at the link I posted was able to measure ~400 microvolt/meter fields proves that it is capable of measuring such fields close to a Part 15 AM setup -- where urban clutter and ground conductivity have little affect.

* which was a Potomac Instruments FIM-41, BTW

//

 

[radiopilot]

Addendum to my most recent post in this thread (Reply 147)...

The mere fact that the field strength meter* used to measure the values in the chart at the link I posted was able to measure ~400 microvolt/meter fields proves that it is capable of measuring such fields close to a Part 15 AM setup -- where urban clutter and ground conductivity have little affect.

* which was a Potomac Instruments FIM-41, BTW

//

Once again Mr. Fry you defy the odds of reasoning... You post a chart of a 250 Watt transmitter at 20 kilometers and read 400 microvolts/meter and suggest what??? That a 100mw transmitter is going to read what??? The super cali fragilistic expi alidotious Potomic meter is really some little machine, so what are you telling us here once again, out of only two or three examples the FCC agents going out of their way to make these readings (which some come into question) you offer a chart which is meaningless at best to the average
Part 15 operator using 100mw.

What fixation could you have in posting time and time again regarding this issue? Offer the Part 15 operator on these boards something they could use instead of rambling on and on about radiation limits when in fact the FCC could care less, it's the only mechanism they have to use in the absence of the Part 15 operator opening the door to let them see the equipment being used. Even if you ever do get an NOUO which 99.99999% of those in compliance will never get, those that do only have to show PROOF of compliance be it the certified transmitter or copy of the transmitter kit manual and of course most FCC agents are probably aware of the units out in the field (Rangemaster, SSTRAN, Ramsey, etc.) so what are you posting what about... that a Potomic FIM can read a field strength... lets hope it does for the $6-9k we the taxpayers are spending on this, lets hope that Halliburton is not charging the govt. 25-100k for these machines in the name of keeping the population at bay! LOL

Radiopilot

 

[WCWalker]

Fry. Where the human factor is involved, errors occur. While the laws of Physics may be inflexible and don't change, man can and does make errors in judgment and calculations.

I'd liken this issue to that of the radar traps that the police set up on the road way. Most of us realize those things are far from perfect, including the police themselves. They'll be the first to admit that clutter or other objects can adversely affect a reading. That being the case virtually every police department in this country, minus a select few, will not ticket a driver unless he's going at least 5 mph and in some cases, 10 mph over the speed limit. The calibrations on some of these units may make readings less than perfect and we certainly know that not all cars have perfectly calibrated speedometers.

 

[WCWalker]

Addendum to my most recent post in this thread (Reply 147)...

The mere fact that the field strength meter* used to measure the values in the chart at the link I posted was able to measure ~400 microvolt/meter fields proves that it is capable of measuring such fields close to a Part 15 AM setup -- where urban clutter and ground conductivity have little affect.

* which was a Potomac Instruments FIM-41, BTW

//

Once again Mr. Fry you defy the odds of reasoning... You post a chart of a 250 Watt transmitter at 20 kilometers and read 400 microvolts/meter and suggest what??? That a 100mw transmitter is going to read what??? The super cali fragilistic expi alidotious Potomic meter is really some little machine, so what are you telling us here once again, out of only two or three examples the FCC agents going out of their way to make these readings (which some come into question) you offer a chart which is meaningless at best to the average
Part 15 operator using 100mw.

What fixation could you have in posting time and time again regarding this issue? Offer the Part 15 operator on these boards something they could use instead of rambling on and on about radiation limits when in fact the FCC could care less, it's the only mechanism they have to use in the absence of the Part 15 operator opening the door to let them see the equipment being used. Even if you ever do get an NOUO which 99.99999% of those in compliance will never get, those that do only have to show PROOF of compliance be it the certified transmitter or copy of the transmitter kit manual and of course most FCC agents are probably aware of the units out in the field (Rangemaster, SSTRAN, Ramsey, etc.) so what are you posting what about... that a Potomic FIM can read a field strength... lets hope it does for the $6-9k we the taxpayers are spending on this, lets hope that Halliburton is not charging the govt. 25-100k for these machines in the name of keeping the population at bay! LOL

Radiopilot

Have you noticed how Fry seems to avoid the subjects that pertain to actual pirate broadcasting and instead concentrates on trying to lecture Part 15 station operators? Odd. You'd think that he'd try to set straight someone that is clearly violating the rules instead of chastising someone that is not running such an operation. Hmmmmm.....

 

[rfry]

You post a chart of a 250 Watt transmitter at 20 kilometers and read 400 microvolts/meter and suggest what???

As I explained in the original post about this - a field strength meter able to measure a 400 microvolt/meter field can measure that field from a Part 15 AM setup as well as from a higher power setup. The only difference is the distance away from the transmit antenna that the 400 microvolt/meter field occurs.

you offer a chart which is meaningless at best to the average Part 15 operator using 100mw. That a 100mw transmitter is going to read what???

You misunderstand, sorry. The chart wasn't posted to show what a Part 15 AM system will read. It was posted to prove that field intensity meters are capable of measuring the fields that Part 15 AM setups can generate.

What fixation could you have in posting time and time again regarding this issue? Offer the Part 15 operator on these boards something they could use instead of rambling on and on about radiation limits when in fact the FCC could care less, it's the only mechanism they have to use in the absence of the Part 15 operator opening the door to let them see the equipment being used.

My only motivation is to present factual information on this subject to counter incorrect information when posted by others. That incorrect information has the potential of misleading its readers into situations where their risk for FCC attention is increased.

It is understandable why this information would not be "popular" with those who manufacture and sell Part 15 AM transmitters, but it should be of interest to those who use them.

//

 

[radioman148]

There's so much discussion here over "Possible" violations by part 15 operators.
Meanwhile in almost every major city, and who knows where else, there are illegal pirates running 100--1,000
watts on FM & AM also and nobody is talking about that or shutting them down. These pirates are interfering with legal commercial & non commercial stations.

Why is that?

 

[radiopilot]

You post a chart of a 250 Watt transmitter at 20 kilometers and read 400 microvolts/meter and suggest what???

As I explained in the original post about this - a field strength meter able to measure a 400 microvolt/meter field can measure that field from a Part 15 AM setup as well as from a higher power setup. The only difference is the distance away from the transmit antenna that the 400 microvolt/meter field occurs.

you offer a chart which is meaningless at best to the average Part 15 operator using 100mw. That a 100mw transmitter is going to read what???

You misunderstand, sorry. The chart wasn't posted to show what a Part 15 AM system will read. It was posted to prove that field intensity meters are capable of measuring the fields that Part 15 AM setups can generate.

No I do understand, but it means nothing to the Part 15 operator if he/she is running the transmitter per the Part 15 rules using 100mw and reasonable ground.

What fixation could you have in posting time and time again regarding this issue? Offer the Part 15 operator on these boards something they could use instead of rambling on and on about radiation limits when in fact the FCC could care less, it's the only mechanism they have to use in the absence of the Part 15 operator opening the door to let them see the equipment being used.

My only motivation is to present factual information on this subject to counter incorrect information when posted by others. That incorrect information has the potential of misleading its readers into situations where their risk for FCC attention is increased.

Factual information based on what... how YOU interpret the Part 15 rules?

It is understandable why this information would not be "popular" with those who manufacture and sell Part 15 AM transmitters, but it should be of interest to those who use them.

//

This is where you lost me, first Part 15 transmitter manufacturers (especially FCC certified ones) could care less about what YOU think they only have to answer to the FCC, second those that use them in the proper manor such as not modifying them or using amplifiers, having a decent ground system as referenced earlier, and of course not broadcasting the take over of any government or use of foul language have nothing to fear the FCC. the only person posting on this board causing undue fear and worry to the would be Part 15 operator is YOU, especially if they are not legal wise or technically inclined which is why this and other boards exist.

Radiopilot

 

[rfry]

There's so much discussion here over "Possible" violations by part 15 operators. Meanwhile in almost every major city, and who knows where else, there are illegal pirates running 100--1,000 watts on FM & AM also and nobody is talking about that or shutting them down....Why is that?

Few if any people running very high powers from unlicensed systems claim to be operating legally under Part 15. They know they are illegal. But even so, the FCC uses Part 15 as the basis for their NOUO.

And they continue to be shut down by the FCC -- and even by local authorities, in Florida.

Below is an extreme example of an illegal FM operation. This station would need an effective radiated power of 58,000 watts to produce the field strength measured by the FCC at 565 meters (free space calculation).

http://www.fcc.gov/eb/FieldNotices/2003/DOC-289527A1.html

//

 

[radiopilot]

Few if any people running very high powers from unlicensed systems claim to be operating legally under Part 15. They know they are illegal. But even so, the FCC uses Part 15 as the basis for their NOUO.

And they continue to be shut down by the FCC -- and even by local authorities, in Florida.

//

Duh... this is really getting silly Mr. Fry almost to the lunatic fringe...

Of course the FCC has to site 'over the legal Part 15 rules', these people running anything over the legal Part 15 power will be cited because they are not licensed and so the FCC cites them under Part 15 rules violation (can't cite them under Part 73 rules not can they?)... so anyone getting cited for an NOUO you believe it's someone with an SSTRAN, Rangemaster, Ramsey or any number of part 15 transmitters... what is going on with you?

Yeah it's true alot of these 'pirate' broadcasters are getting NOUO's and they either deserve it or not (not my case to call or yours), but you can't use these illegal cases and offer these violators as proof that anyone using a Part 15 100mw could be cited per those violators (over the legal Part 15), it just isn't going to happen.

The only thing I can surmise by all this rhetoric from you is that somehow when you retired you got a 1000 watt AM/FM transmitter as a retirement gift and your using this illegal transmitter and broadcasting without a license and you try to post all this negative talk on these and other boards to make you feel legal and or discourage others from being on the air because it makes you feel in control somehow... honestly it boggles the mind.
Radiopilot

 

[rfry]

... so anyone getting cited for an NOUO you believe it's someone with an SSTRAN, Rangemaster, Ramsey or any number of part 15 transmitters...

Not at all, however transmitters with higher input/output powers than those you mentioned are more likely to be noticed and cited by the FCC.

But Part 15 certified AM transmitters rated for 100 milliwatts of input power are not immune to FCC action, depending on how they are configured and installed.

This has been shown even in a post of Wm Walker, where he stated that a Rangemaster transmitter was used by a Part 15 AM operator who was issued an NOUO by the FCC.

There was another case where a Part 15 AM citation was issued for a violation of 15.219, apparently while using a certified Rangemaster in a system with a long, conducting path to an r-f ground.

This link to a thread on another board gives more information about this second case, in the post titled "Some more details about the cited church station." The entire thread makes for interesting reading.

http://www.part15.us/node/1190#comment-3689

//

 

[WCWalker]

The only thing that NOUO that was issued against the station in Flagstaff proves is that there was possibly a violation. And since they are still on the air it is obvious the issue was corrected OR as in my case, the FCC Field Office was informed of their error from DC, and the issue ended there. Unless we can hear directly from the owner of Fox Sports Radio in Flagstaff, the best we can do is surmise what occurred and little else.

 

[XRQKFM]

Unless we can hear directly from the owner of Fox Sports Radio in Flagstaff, the best we can do is surmise what occurred and little else.

You won't! He does not want to get involved in the petty stuff that small fries lives for; I can you verify it's up and running tonight, as it was heard in the Home Depot parking lot tonight at 21:00 PDT. The minor ground problem was corrected immediately; to the satisfaction of the agent, end of story!


Steve
www.avnewstalk.com