Savage in Radio World

[Chuck]

I read with interest Bob's response to Guy Wire's assessment of HD and WYSL's experiences. Bob brings up a lot of points that are very hard to ignore. If you haven't read it, I recommend picking up a copy. I'm sure it will be on line soon, if it isn't already.

 

[audioguy]

The latest issue of Radio World just arrived. The headline article: "Is AM Radio Still Relevant?" The next issue will have an article on "What successful owners say and the future of AM HD Radio". I look for it to be a puff piece extolling the virtues of HD AM.

 

[Link]

I think this is the link for Savage's reply in RW. http://www.radioworld.com/article/85620

 

[drt]

Thanks for posting the link, Link!

Mr. Savage's response to "guy wire's" lies and misrepresentations was very thoughtful and eloquent.

btw- Does anyone know if Tom Ray is still chief engineer of WOR and he is still a big supporter of IBOC? He used to frequently post on another forum I am subscribed to and freqeuntly touted IBOC and I've noticed that in the last 18 - 24 months, he has been remarkedly quiet.(as in...... no longer posting)

drt

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Thanks for posting the link, Link!

Mr. Savage's response to "guy wire's" lies and misrepresentations was very thoughtful and eloquent.

btw- Does anyone know if Tom Ray is still chief engineer of WOR and he is still a big supporter of IBOC? He used to frequently post on another forum I am subscribed to and freqeuntly touted IBOC and I've noticed that in the last 18 - 24 months, he has been remarkedly quiet.(as in...... no longer posting)

drt

No matter how eloquent, it won't change anything. It appears that whether the Democans or Republicrats are in power, we get an FCC populated by rubber stampers - whatever big corporate radio wants, big corporate radio gets. Right now, big radio wants ad revenue from HD-2 channels. And they will get it, no matter how much interference it generates. A complete reversal of the reason why the FRC was created so many decades ago.

Tom Ray and the other big proponents don't post any more. Why should they? They won the battle. Interference is a done deal for decades ahead, until radio is irrelevant, lost in a sea of ever increasing noise floor interference, both self generated and coming from other - essentially unregulated - sources.

Why the FCC doesn't just drop all licensing of stations is beyond me - if interference is allowed to reign supreme, RF anarchy similar to pre-FRC, then what difference to pirates make?

 

[mmnassour]

Right now, big radio wants ad revenue from HD-2 channels. And they will get it, no matter how much interference it generates. A complete reversal of the reason why the FRC was created so many decades ago.

Granted I'm on board with just about everything else you said....but....if no one is listening to the -2 channels, how can there be revenue? What am I missing here?

 

[RadeoEngineer]

Thanks for posting the link, Link!

Mr. Savage's response to "guy wire's" lies and misrepresentations was very thoughtful and eloquent.

btw- Does anyone know if Tom Ray is still chief engineer of WOR and he is still a big supporter of IBOC? He used to frequently post on another forum I am subscribed to and freqeuntly touted IBOC and I've noticed that in the last 18 - 24 months, he has been remarkedly quiet.(as in...... no longer posting)

drt

Why the FCC doesn't just drop all licensing of stations is beyond me - if interference is allowed to reign supreme, RF anarchy similar to pre-FRC, then what difference to pirates make?

Regulatory fee$.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Granted I'm on board with just about everything else you said....but....if no one is listening to the -2 channels, how can there be revenue? What am I missing here?

Their wishful thinking - that by sheer force of their will power and eventual legislation, all new radios will be HD. Of course that won't make HD work, but they will still go selling ads for the HD-2 channels.

By the time these HD folks finally give up, radio will be a devastated entity barely a shell of what it once was. Radios that buzz loudly instead of pick up stations will become antique curiosities: "grandfather - what is that?" "That is a radio" "What was it for?" "Before the internet let us hear stations from all over the world, you could listen to radio without the internet, through the air!" "does it still work" "no - there were eventually too many stations, and too much noise, so radio quit working. The last radio stations went out of business years ago." THAT is the true future of radio, not HD.

 

[thathoustonradiogeek]

Granted I'm on board with just about everything else you said....but....if no one is listening to the -2 channels, how can there be revenue? What am I missing here?

Their wishful thinking - that by sheer force of their will power and eventual legislation, all new radios will be HD. Of course that won't make HD work, but they will still go selling ads for the HD-2 channels.

By the time these HD folks finally give up, radio will be a devastated entity barely a shell of what it once was. Radios that buzz loudly instead of pick up stations will become antique curiosities: "grandfather - what is that?" "That is a radio" "What was it for?" "Before the internet let us hear stations from all over the world, you could listen to radio without the internet, through the air!" "does it still work" "no - there were eventually too many stations, and too much noise, so radio quit working. The last radio stations went out of business years ago." THAT is the true future of radio, not HD.

I'm afraid you may turn out to be prophetic, Bruce. :'(

 

[Savage]

With respect, rbruce, I do hope you're wrong. And there are reasons to be hopeful, which have been exhaustively enumerated here. One: no additional HD-AM stations in over a year...and very few more HD-FMs. Two: the digital power increase is in trouble on two fronts - NPR, key supporter, is getting agitated about -10 digital, and most informed people agree that any level of digital increase won't help coverage much. Three: carmakers aren't on board, so no HD listening in the car. Four: receivers are essentially gone at retail with no prospect they'll be back. Five: outside of the Alliance HD investors, no broadcaster interest in HD.

Stupid force only works up to a point. Then it doesn't. If it hasn't accomplished its objective it's "game over" no matter what anybody thinks.

As far as Tom Ray goes, my information is he's semi-retired now. And what more can be said about HD-AM? Unless you're insanely pro-HD it's indefensible. It doesn't work and the interference is obvious.

 

[Savage]

OH: I forgot. Alliance companies are flirting with going out of business. CCU just offered creditors 17 cents on the dollar. The only success stories left in radio are those real broadcasters doing LOCAL radio.

"Selling ads on HD-2 channels?" Don't make me laugh (any harder.) They can't sell the ads on their MAIN channels. All HD is doing is ratcheting up their operating expenses - in many cases, by a considerable margin. There is NO reasonable prospect there will be any appreciable revenue to offset those costs any time soon. Sooner or later killing HD will become a matter of survival (as opposed to "common sense" which is the main reason to stop HD right now.)

I predict that once the digital increase happens - whatever it amounts to - the loss of analog coverage and interference, plus negligible digital improvement, will amount to an unacceptable situation. Few stations will increase digital power anyway. There still won't be any radios or any interest. So rearrange those Lusitania deck chairs all you like - it's not going anywhere except "the ocean floor."

Then the economic hammer will descend. HD is, and will be....toast. Bet on it and make yourself some dough.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

"Selling ads on HD-2 channels?" Don't make me laugh (any harder.)

I was being sarcastic - those people are so out of touch that they probably actually think that - or selective subscription access to HD-2, will make this pig fly.

As for Tom Ray being semi-retired, perhaps his mis-directed support of this flawed technology had a hand in that? Rather that out and out fire him, they might be, out of respect, allowing him to fade away gracefully. After all, HD reduces the huge footprint of WOR throughout the NE, any action (adopting HD) that reduces that footprint would be unpopular with station management. Especially at night with WLW sidebands making WOR reception really bad over the NE.

 

[Savage]

Actually, Tom Ray's company seems to be making more of an exit than he might be. Buckley just sold its three Syracuse properties for a blowout low price to a small regional operator with stations in places like Oneonta, NY (college town north of Binghamton) and Oneida, NY. So obviously they're thinking about bigger issues than HD (more evidence of the navel-gazing aspects of this whole controversy.)

There will be a tipping point with HD, and it's as inevitable as sunrise. HD Radio is so OVER. They just refuse to read the memo.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Two: the digital power increase is in trouble on two fronts - NPR, key supporter, is getting agitated about -10 digital, and most informed people agree that any level of digital increase won't help coverage much.

I've been puzzling for a couple of years over what is causing the decrease in coverage when an FM station runs HD. Now, I think I have an answer! And it may explain the AM effect as well. I stumbled on it quite by accident doing something for work - and it was one of those "DUH" moments, the answer was so simple it was like trying to figure out what an elephant is by looking at a square inch of skin.

So here goes: the gain / bandwidth product. That's it - all in a nutshell. It also explains why the effect differs on some receivers. If the IF bandwidth is wide, then the added energy in the sidebands is going to fool the AGC in the receiver into lowering the gain, effectively lowering the sensitivity. It explains why all the DX'ers with very narrow IF filters in their radios don't see the effect, and neither do narrow band radios. But throw in a wide bandwidth receiver, such as an HD radio - noise goes up whether it is AM or FM - gain goes down, and the effect is less coverage. In other words - HD coverage doomed by its very own characteristics!!!

I need to get my TM-152 hooked up again, but it is in storage as I'm still waiting for a house to close. But I do have a GE SR-3, and it should be able to hear the effect on AM. I have an old Kenwood receiver with wide / narrow bandwidth, and there is an HD fringe station about 60 miles from my new location. I should be able to hear the effect on it - good reception with a narrow band receiver, switch to wide and I bet it goes way down or disappears. A youtube video of the effect, some simulations, and I think the coverage issue will be finally solved. Along with an ironclad proof that 10 dB of power increase on FM is nowhere near enough to offset the effects of the gain / bandwidth limitation.

All I know is, from my new location 250 miles South of Dallas, WBAP is still a blowtorch, and it wasn't down here when they were fooling with HD. KLIF 570 is still fooling with HD, and they are very weak, except for sidebands that are very audible even over semi-local KLVI. And yet KSKY on 660 is a blowtorch, no HD. I might be able to "fool" the AGC in the radios with a bit of tinkering, that would nail the coffin lid shut for sure if it works!

 

[Play Freebird]

I've been puzzling for a couple of years over what is causing the decrease in coverage when an FM station runs HD. Now, I think I have an answer! And it may explain the AM effect as well. I stumbled on it quite by accident doing something for work - and it was one of those "DUH" moments, the answer was so simple it was like trying to figure out what an elephant is by looking at a square inch of skin.

Another problem is the undesired response of stereo decoder chips to energy at the fifth harmonic of 38 kHz. See:

http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/ibocharm.htm

Walsh Function decoders reduce this problem but they're a relatively recent development, so there are still a lot of receivers in regular use with older chips.

30 years ago when I was in college, I built the Heathkit FM car tuner which was just horrible in this regard. I think it had an early Motorola stereo chip, but very poor noise immunity.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Another problem is the undesired response of stereo decoder chips to energy at the fifth harmonic of 38 kHz. See:

http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/ibocharm.htm

Walsh Function decoders reduce this problem but they're a relatively recent development, so there are still a lot of receivers in regular use with older chips.

30 years ago when I was in college, I built the Heathkit FM car tuner which was just horrible in this regard. I think it had an early Motorola stereo chip, but very poor noise immunity.

Good point - and the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that a 10dB power increase is only going to exaggerate the problem by fooling receiver AGC even more. It may have the unintended side effect of decreasing both analog and HD coverage - as counter-intuitive as that sounds, because the receiver first has to detect an analog signal, then look for sidebands. If the aggregate noise is much higher going into the IF of the tuner, then it won't have as easy a time detecting the signal in the first place.

Another thought - that may be the whole reason for adaptive IF in the new FM chipsets - to first allow detection of an analog signal, and then once it is locked in, to start widening the IF to look for sidebands. If found and lock is achieved, the gain / bandwidth limitation is mitigated and there is no noise. But you can't fool physics - the first time noise creeps in that confuses the algorithm, lock will go away and you are left with a wide bandwidth and sidebands that are noise as far as the receiver AGC is concerned. So it has to go back narrow, look for the analog signal again, etc.

The other problem with this is that we are at a solar minimum, and FM skip has been at low levels for years - the entire duration of this grand HD experiment. We won't stay at solar minimum forever, and when large skip events start taking place, HD lock will be lost even on local stations, because the distant stations will be noise to the digital decoding algorithms. FM, then, will have the same issues as nighttime AM HD.

 

[TheBigA]

Their wishful thinking - that by sheer force of their will power and eventual legislation, all new radios will be HD.

Oh come now. The FCC has not indicated in any way that it would mandate HD on all new radios. And Congress doesn't appear to be favoring any legislation that would favor terrestrial radio. If anything, they're considering RIAA-sponsored legislation that would virtually kill radio.

Satellite radio bought off all the car companies so all new radios in new cars would contain satellite receivers. You see what a huge boom that was to satellite.

Meanwhile, main channel AM & FM radio stations are filled with unsold inventory. They definitely don't need any more frequencies for commercials.

I think you write great science fiction, but that's all it is.

 

[stormy01]

...selective subscription access to HD-2, will make this pig fly.

LOL! The pig is stuffed and belches! Sat Rad and WiMax are looking better all the time... at least people can hear their 'stations' (100+ choices) all over the country...HD-2 Radio... maybe 10 channels, up to 10 miles from the transmitter, constant dropouts/"blends"...I think I'll fire up my 8-track!

 

[Savage]

TheBigA, I think you missed rbruce's point. He was positing the management fantasy or "wishful thinking" of Big Group Radio about selling ads on the HD subs, not suggesting that it was actually likely to happen. I think we all agree: no coverage, no audience, no value when it comes to selling ads - whether it's on HD subs or main channels, AM or FM. If you sell worthless junk, either you get no significant revenue or you screw your clients. Either way ad sales are actually counterproductive unless you're delivering value for your client.

As far as XM/Sirius "buying off" car companies - actually, that's just the free market doing its thing. The car companies demanded a price, and the satcasters were willing to pay it. Each got what they wanted. iBiquity ran to the FCC whining about a mandate, and got what they deserved: bupkis. The way iBiquity tried once again to bully and lie and line-jump its way to success, is illustrative of how they do everything, from legal to technical to marketing.

HD deserves to fail. And it has, and is.

 

[TheBigA]

TheBigA, I think you missed rbruce's point. He was positing the management fantasy or "wishful thinking" of Big Group Radio about selling ads on the HD subs, not suggesting that it was actually likely to happen.

I got his point perfectly. Which is why I called it science fiction.

I think his "wishful thinking" scenario is five years old. I don't think anyone, in big OR small radio, thinks that way now. And as I said, I don't think anyone will be spending any Congressional capital to make it happen. Clear Channel has obviously refocused its energy on iheartradio. None of the other companies have either the money or the will to devote to anything beyond their main channels.

Regarding satellite radio, you missed MY point. They got car companies to install their radios, but it didn't lead to increased subscriptions. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And that applies to HD radio, satellite radio, and AM/FM radio.