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Seattle-Tacoma PPM ratings November 2024
- Thread starter KilowattKat
- Start date
The 90’s has nothing to do with it in my opinion. I couldn’t comment on that anyway since I wasn’t old enough to remember radio in the 90’s. KZOK had a great playlist up until a few years ago. Plenty of variety, without being chaotic or disorganized. After iHeart took over, things weren’t really the same. The local talent was cut and the playlist shrunk considerably. All you have to do is look at the playlist history and you’ll see it’s basically the same thing every day. Rinse and repeat. Count how many times Free Fallin comes up lol
I’m sure KEXP is great for some, but it’s not really my thing. I’d rather just listen to a classic rock station that airs a wider variety of music. Luckily we can do that in most of the market.
That was 2017. Since then, classic rock has changed to the demo, and to other formats. Some of what is classic rock is also played by Jack or Jet. I think if you look at Audacy classic rock stations, you'll see a lot of similarity to iHeart. The format is the format.
I’m not telling them not to move up the playlist a bit or not embrace music that’s better fitting for the demographic. They should absolutely do that. But they ride the same handful of songs from each artist/group, and basically play the same thing every single day.
I agree, the format is the format. However, if you listen to this station every day, it gets stale very fast. I don’t think anybody expects them to go crazy, but I don’t really see why Tom Petty (for example) should have so many popular songs, yet only 3 ever see the light of day on KZOK.
And just to play devil’s advocate, let’s just pretend that KZOK should abandon all rock other than rock from the 1990’s. Well, they don’t do that well either. Nirvana? Here’s three songs on rotation. Soundgarden? Hope you like Black Hole Sun. Alice In Chains? Do I hear a rooster?
Other stations out there do it better. It really doesn’t have to be like this. Even their sister station KGB in San Diego seems to do better with variety.
If I was programming a Tom Petty channel, you'd hear more Petty variety. This is about context, and the strength of all the songs together. People want to know they'll always hear a top-testing hit by every artist, not just the ones that are their favorites. There are other places to go for depth. As I said, the format is the format. When a song burns out, it'll get replaced. If you keep hearing it, it's still testing well and hasn't burnt out yet. They're programming to a lot of people, not just you.
It's a different cluster with a different strategy.
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Remember, all these stations in big markets are driven by research.
Yes, today there is less due to the cost. And it is often done with one test being applied to more than one "similar" markets.
There are two ways of selecting those who take part in the test. Most stations that are doing well will test a sample of their own listeners who spend enough time a week listening to know the music.
Other stations, particularly ones looking to do better, may also test with potential listeners. In that case, they will see how they score a set of test "pods" with hooks to 6 to 10 songs. Those songs generally are not the very top performing ones that "everyone" likes but, rather, those that have very positive scores but not the top, top songs.
People who score, let's say, two out of three test pods highly will also be invited as they could be listeners. In some cases, we look at "non-listener but likes music" scores to see if some songs we play are driving them away. Maybe if we play less of those, or eliminate them if they are not core to actual listeners, we can make a larger group happy.
Tom Petty? Likely not enough listeners like those other songs and lots of them don't like them at all. We look for songs that are still "hits" today as we don't run museums. For that, book a flight to Cleveland.
Well I know that. I’m just trying to figure out who this could appeal to. Obviously the target is middle aged men. Do people in that demographic not get tired of it? Is adding more songs that were also popular at the time a strategy that would somehow crater their ratings? If anything, that seems like it would be more appealing since it doesn’t feel like Groundhog Day.
There’s no need to get too hung up on Tom Petty, but most people who have worked for any radio station that plays older music has probably heard Free Fallin enough times to drive them insane. It is a good song, and it should get airplay, but you can count on it airing every during at least one commute.
Casual music listeners as opposed to serious music fans. What we find is that the majority of people are casual music fans. Maybe only 10% fall into the serious music fan category.
As I've often said, radio people don't play the music for themselves. James Taylor was once asked if he gets tired of singing Fire & Rain or any of his songs over and over. His answer was every show is a completely different audience, and some may be hearing him for the first time. He wants to give it his all so their one time is a good experience. That's part of the thinking behind programming a radio station.
I often look at most-played Gold lists to see if the songs change, and they do. What was among the most-played gold three years ago has changed as new songs are cycled in. The list is always changing. Radio usage has changed. People don't listen all day. Just for short periods. So there's enough variety to entertain the majority. That's how KZOK has survived even after the sale to iHeart and the loss of two morning shows.
I wonder if it’s possible to “over research” their approach.
Leaving the music out of the conversation for a second, many of the voice tracks that air sound incredibly generic. Just reading a very basic station promo or prompting listeners to text in to win a national contest of some kind. I assume this approach was probably researched as well.
I would never suggest that any serious radio station go out and take extreme risks with their playlist. That’s unwise and a bad business decision. No radio station is ever going to please everyone, but if it’s too cookie cutter, that could end badly too.
As I mentioned in a previous thread, I used to listen every day (mainly for the morning show, but then I’d stick around for a while and keep listening). After the morning show drama dropped, I didn’t really come back. There isn’t really a reason to. I’m curious to see how the ratings will look over time now that they’re back to the drawing board.
For classic hits, iHeart is going a great job in Seattle with 95.7. When I’m driving around Seattle, my radio is probably on 95.7 most of the time. The variety is great, and the personalities are also excellent. Sure, you’re going to hear certain songs that might be “overplayed,” but that doesn’t matter so much when it it’s balanced out with other stuff.
When it comes to classic rock, streaming is definitely preferable to KZOK.
Always keep in mind that we don't listen to radio like civilians do. We are a self-selecting group of radio professionals, former radio pros, and people who are really interested in radio. KZOK serves a commuter market and a guy wants to turn on the station and hear the hits. He may only listen for 20-40 minutes a day, so there is a lot less repetition for him than would be apparent to us.
KZOK seems to do pretty well ratings-wise. I don't know about billing, but I figure it has to do pretty well there also. Not my cup of tea, but that's because I am not a typical listener.
Station like KISM is in a completely different lane. They really have no direct radio competition- all of the other stations not owned by Saga up here are in BC and sound "foreign" due to CanCon rules and Vancouver-centric content. Competition for the local ad dollar is mainly online, and Saga are doing a pretty good job of leveraging their media brands to attack that vertical as well. No local TV, and the newspaper is a ghost of its former self. The only limit is that there is only so much advertising dollar available. But they are able to run two local morning shows on the two Class Cs- one with two hosts and one with three. They are live and local to 7pm, track until midnight from other Saga resources. And they do a TON of remotes, which still work in a parochial market like this one.
KISM- Classic rock. Not much commute (where are you going to go that is more than 20 minutes away? LOL), but a lot of "listen at work" which may help support a bigger than typical playlist
KAFE- AC to hot AC. I believe the real money maker of the cluster. The more professional sounding of the two in terms of local talent.
KBAI- Classic hits jukebox that runs on a translator off of an HD3. No effort made at all on this one, but it is a great place for dumping all of the Saga generated agency ads.
KGMI- Angry white man AM conservative talker that has a translator. DOES have a local news block in the AM that is leveraged for online content.
KPUG - Sports yakker AM with a translator. Mostly ESPN, but one of the morning guys on KAFE does 2 hours local in the afternoons. And of course lots of High school football and basketball. Along with Seahawks, Kraken and Mariners
Only format hole may be country. They just ran out of spectrum openings.
KZOK seems to do pretty well ratings-wise. I don't know about billing, but I figure it has to do pretty well there also. Not my cup of tea, but that's because I am not a typical listener.
Station like KISM is in a completely different lane. They really have no direct radio competition- all of the other stations not owned by Saga up here are in BC and sound "foreign" due to CanCon rules and Vancouver-centric content. Competition for the local ad dollar is mainly online, and Saga are doing a pretty good job of leveraging their media brands to attack that vertical as well. No local TV, and the newspaper is a ghost of its former self. The only limit is that there is only so much advertising dollar available. But they are able to run two local morning shows on the two Class Cs- one with two hosts and one with three. They are live and local to 7pm, track until midnight from other Saga resources. And they do a TON of remotes, which still work in a parochial market like this one.
KISM- Classic rock. Not much commute (where are you going to go that is more than 20 minutes away? LOL), but a lot of "listen at work" which may help support a bigger than typical playlist
KAFE- AC to hot AC. I believe the real money maker of the cluster. The more professional sounding of the two in terms of local talent.
KBAI- Classic hits jukebox that runs on a translator off of an HD3. No effort made at all on this one, but it is a great place for dumping all of the Saga generated agency ads.
KGMI- Angry white man AM conservative talker that has a translator. DOES have a local news block in the AM that is leveraged for online content.
KPUG - Sports yakker AM with a translator. Mostly ESPN, but one of the morning guys on KAFE does 2 hours local in the afternoons. And of course lots of High school football and basketball. Along with Seahawks, Kraken and Mariners
Only format hole may be country. They just ran out of spectrum openings.
Can you explain why none of this applies to their sister station (95.7 The Jet)?
I listen to this station all of the time. None of what I said above applies. The variety is perfectly fine, and even certain songs do receive a lot of airplay, it’s balanced out with other stuff. It also feels a lot more local.
I don’t disagree with your perspective, but it seems like iheart has taken much more of a cookie cutter approach with 102.5. I never really used to listen to 95.7 in the past, but now it’s easily become the better of the two stations.
You've asked this before, and my answer then was they have the same PD. He coordinates how they're run. They're not in competition, they're on the same team with the same coach. They have different strategies and aiming for different results. As long as you're listening to one of their stations, that's all that really matters. The rest is your personal taste.
Well here’s a different way of looking at it: I do feel like it’s probably much easier to program 95.7 and make it something that’s palatable for everyone. It’s a station that has a little classic rock, classic pop, R&B, etc. That’s why I enjoy it.
The smartest PD out there could probably run into the same issues if the format is the issue itself (which seems to be what you and David are getting at). The lack of local personalities on 102.5 may not be my cup of tea, but there’s only so much money to go around. It will work for some listeners. Others it won’t, but that doesn’t matter as much if the listeners who matter are content with it.
The reference to casual versus serious listeners really clicked for me. I definitely fall into the latter and it's probably why I've curated a large personal music collection. That said variety is the spice of life and 95.7 does good job right now of that. 101.5 is also bringing a wider range of country hits from the past (understandable since that's the niche they are going for).
Maybe my definition of wider variety is unique. It's doesn't always mean several decades of music (say 70s, 80s and 90s) it can be just playing more than three songs from an artists. Just run through the catalogues of these artists and tell me how many of their hits get played on any of Seattle's radio stations (I'm willing to bet it's somewhere between 10-30%): Chicago, Journey, Elton John, Madonna, Janet Jackson, Tom Petty, Billy Joel, Bob Seger, Bryan Adams, The Cars, etc).
Like fordranger797, KEXP is not my cup of tea.
Maybe my definition of wider variety is unique. It's doesn't always mean several decades of music (say 70s, 80s and 90s) it can be just playing more than three songs from an artists. Just run through the catalogues of these artists and tell me how many of their hits get played on any of Seattle's radio stations (I'm willing to bet it's somewhere between 10-30%): Chicago, Journey, Elton John, Madonna, Janet Jackson, Tom Petty, Billy Joel, Bob Seger, Bryan Adams, The Cars, etc).
Like fordranger797, KEXP is not my cup of tea.
This is where I’d really like some input from the industry experts.
If you were to tell me that KZOK had a massive dedicated operating budget, I’d be a bit surprised.
On the other hand, if the entire cluster has a specific operating budget, the picture starts to get more clear. They’re going to invest in 95.7, because this station is arguably their strongest asset. It seems to be a station that has universal appeal, so why wouldn’t they want to make sure that the playlist is just right (along with the personalities, imaging, etc)? It’s a station completely in its own lane, with appeal from men, women, and (seemingly) people of all ages.
They’re also going to invest in 106.1, since this station competes against 92.5 (and is successfully giving that station a run for its money).
But that leaves 102.5 as a bit of an outlier. It’s an important part of the equation, but perhaps not as much so as 95.7. They’ve invested heavily in the morning show for a long time now, which has certainly worked. As I’ve mentioned multiple times, the morning show was one of the main reasons I still tuned in. But does it have universal appeal? Probably not. It’s targeted towards men, and classic rock seems harder to program successfully than classic hits (based on what we’ve heard on this board). I don’t find KZOK to be a particularly enjoyable station to listen to anymore, but as long as it’s generating the ratings it needs to produce, there’s probably no need to mess with it. They need to get the core demographic of men to tune in, and that’s happening. If it peals some listeners away from 99.9 and 107.7, even better.
TLDR: if there’s only so much money to go around, it’s probably wise to spend it on (and put the TLC) into the station that has the most appeal, and will continue to be a major draw for the years to come. They just need KZOK to work, and right now it’s working.
I think it's too early to say. As you say, KZOK has benefited from a strong morning show for a long time. That ended a couple months ago. I've noticed that at least 5 other major market iHeart classic rock stations dropped their morning hosts at the same time. So my feeling is they're preparing to launch a national classic rock morning show. It's one of the few formats that doesn't have a national show. So what the station is now may not be what it will be next year. Stay tuned.
This is going to get interesting. I’m not sure how that’s going to go over with listeners, but time will tell.
My impression is that iHeart doesn’t see much of a future in the classic rock format. Over time, we’re going to see how the recent changes are impacting their ratings. It’s not really a loss for iheart if a listener is like me, and switches to 95.7. That may be what they’re hoping for if their hands are tied with the format.
You think there's a future in playing 50 year old music? If so, how long?
Well they certainly see classic hits as being most sustainable. Even if they can’t ride the 80’s forever, it is possible to mix in other music. Rock music may be too segmented at this point (within the core years they would need to focus on).
Not every station in a cluster can be the bread winner. Some are flankers, staying off competition while not cannibalizing from the other stations in the cluster. Radio is more like driving a huge freighter versus a speed boat. If you turn the wheel on a freighter or try to stop, it can take several minutes to see the effect. A speed boat it's more immediate. It could take a year to adjust a station to fit it better to the cluster. Even if you drastically change the music it takes a while to measure the results to see if it's having the affect you want. then apply some more adjustment to nudge it in.
iHeart has been methodical in achieving their long term goal of efficiently delivering programming to their stations. It's a new direction and they have slowly been pulling the band aid off trying to cause as little pain as possible while gauging the audience and market changes. But even pulling a Band Aid off slowly can cause pain.
iHeart has been methodical in achieving their long term goal of efficiently delivering programming to their stations. It's a new direction and they have slowly been pulling the band aid off trying to cause as little pain as possible while gauging the audience and market changes. But even pulling a Band Aid off slowly can cause pain.
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