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Seattle's Radio Listening Habits - TIMES
- Thread starter dialtwister
- Start date
Excellent article about the decline of spoken word radio in the Seattle market. I noticed the picture of Dori Monson with the headline: "back to number one in spoken word in Seattle from noon-1pm." Only later do you discover that is 14th place 25-54. Spoken word is have issues across the country in the PPM. What was fascinating to me was the article on the same page that talked about the diversity of listenership based on locale. In Seattle, KUOW is number one, with KPTK the top talk station. Outside in the suburbs, KRWM, KWFF and KZOK are on top. Only three stations do well in Seattle and the suburbs: KJAQ, KJR-FM and KPLZ. Since April these are the only three that have been in the top five every single month. The rest come in and out. You need both Seattle and suburbs to win, I hadn't noticed that before.
The article was focused 25-54. Most news and talk stations reach 55+ very well and occationally dip into the top five 35-64 in the PPM. Much different than the old diary days. I loved the comment that "even the talk show hosts mother could not listen as much as some diaryholders said they did." The diary was voting, the PPM is not. The one area that seem to be holding up in PPM in Sports Talk, which is doing quite well in Seattle with KJR-AM very strong in mornings and the Mariners still strong on KIRO-AM. In Detroit, THE TICKET, is number one 25-54. Sportstalk and hit music, with upbeat personalities seem to be the trend these days. Maybe people are just looking to be entertained.
Thoughtful article. Good news for KJAQ, KZOK, KRWM, KPLZ and KWFF that got kudos for strong ratings. Good press for KUOW as well. Not so good for KIRO, KOMO, KVI, KTTH and others.
The article was focused 25-54. Most news and talk stations reach 55+ very well and occationally dip into the top five 35-64 in the PPM. Much different than the old diary days. I loved the comment that "even the talk show hosts mother could not listen as much as some diaryholders said they did." The diary was voting, the PPM is not. The one area that seem to be holding up in PPM in Sports Talk, which is doing quite well in Seattle with KJR-AM very strong in mornings and the Mariners still strong on KIRO-AM. In Detroit, THE TICKET, is number one 25-54. Sportstalk and hit music, with upbeat personalities seem to be the trend these days. Maybe people are just looking to be entertained.
Thoughtful article. Good news for KJAQ, KZOK, KRWM, KPLZ and KWFF that got kudos for strong ratings. Good press for KUOW as well. Not so good for KIRO, KOMO, KVI, KTTH and others.
R
radioprofessor
Guest
The format parameter of Talk is declining across the board in the PPM. News and sports are quite a different matter. In Washington DC, all news is number one 25-54 in SF it is number three. In Detroit, sports talk is number one 25-54. Talk tends to perform well 12+, but most of the audience is 55+. NPR performs well in educated markets like Seattle, SF, Minneapolis. In my humble view talk got many more straightline votes in the diary than it deserved based on its cume. The PPM bears that out in Seattle and in all other markets. Hit based music stations won in the diary and now in the PPM. The top stations in the diary in Philadelphia, Houston, LA, Minneapolis, Chicago and even Seattle, are among the top stations in the PPM. Only Smooth Jazz, Rhythmic, Country, Hispanic and Talk seem to have taken a bit of a format parameter hit. Sports and Mainstream CHR are your big winners to date in the PPM markets that have rolled out. HOT/AC and AC are next up for success. All talk morning shows are in trouble and are being retired. Morning shows that play music with older,established personalities seem to perform well like the Killer B, KISS in Boston, Dallas, LA and STAR in Seattle. Good radio seems to win whether it is sports, music or newstalk, in my humble view.
R
radioprofessor
Guest
By the way the divide between City and Suburbs is a very normal parameter. In LA proper, different stations win than in Orange County, for example. The difference is very stark in cities where minorities dominate the urban population and whites dominate the suburban. Was surprised to see the difference in Seattle where is appears liberal educated or if you rather (elitist) audiences are in the city. They like NPR, HOT/AC and Alternative. The suburbs like Active Rock, Soft Rock and Christian. Only HOT/AC and Classic Hits seem to transcend the city/suburb parameter. Quite a disparity but not unusual in my humble opinion.
Interesting comments and article in The Times today. I am especially intrigued about the KUOW discrepancy in City vs. the rest of the market.
I am wondering if KUOW would be better served by going up to Cougar Mountain. Here's why: KUOW is a Class C1 FM with a limit of 100,000 watts ERP, located on Capitol Hill. Their facility is 100 kw at just 224 HAAT (Height above average terrain). However, the reference distance for a Class C1 is over 72 km, yet KUOW is powered to go a distance of just 67 km, and has some pretty bad terrain to go over in many areas outside the Seattle and TSA area. A move to Cougar would smooth out those shadows, enable them to go further by 5 km, and represent an increase of HAAT by a factor of 63.39% at Cougars' 366 meters (HAAT)typical tower height. In this way, KUOW would serve the market better, and throw a slightly stronger signal on the Eastside, while preserving their core liberal audience. Up at Cougar, I am sure they could throw down a respectible signal of maybe 90 to 95 dbu into the City of Seattle, like KUBE's.
Furthermore, a KUOW facility at Cougar would save a ton of money in electricity as they would run about 62,000 watts ERP instead of the present 100,000 watts.
I know KUOW has a sweatheart deal for that tower, but I think they might be better served by going up to Cougar for the reasons stated above.
Right or wrong?
I am wondering if KUOW would be better served by going up to Cougar Mountain. Here's why: KUOW is a Class C1 FM with a limit of 100,000 watts ERP, located on Capitol Hill. Their facility is 100 kw at just 224 HAAT (Height above average terrain). However, the reference distance for a Class C1 is over 72 km, yet KUOW is powered to go a distance of just 67 km, and has some pretty bad terrain to go over in many areas outside the Seattle and TSA area. A move to Cougar would smooth out those shadows, enable them to go further by 5 km, and represent an increase of HAAT by a factor of 63.39% at Cougars' 366 meters (HAAT)typical tower height. In this way, KUOW would serve the market better, and throw a slightly stronger signal on the Eastside, while preserving their core liberal audience. Up at Cougar, I am sure they could throw down a respectible signal of maybe 90 to 95 dbu into the City of Seattle, like KUBE's.
Furthermore, a KUOW facility at Cougar would save a ton of money in electricity as they would run about 62,000 watts ERP instead of the present 100,000 watts.
I know KUOW has a sweatheart deal for that tower, but I think they might be better served by going up to Cougar for the reasons stated above.
Right or wrong?
Since the Times likes to run negative front page stories about various industries on Mondays, here's their piece specifically focused on talk radio (arguably their closest media competitor). http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009772078_talkradio30m.html
I would think the Cap Hill tower (even if they move to Cougar) would be a candidate for leasing for various microwave & 2-way's (if they aren't doing that already). Just wondering if there is additional rev. source if they abandoned the tower for transmission (though isn't that where KEXP still has a presence?)
I believe KUOW was in brief negotiations to combine with the group currently on the Ratelco spiral antenna on Cougar, but decided instead to spend quite a bit of capital on a significant facility improvement on Capital Hill. The improvements were for new a solid state high power transmitter and antenna. Unfortunately all these improvements did little for increasing coverage due to no increase in height.
My guess is the Capitol Hill improvements pretty well emptied their capital budget for this sort of thing. High power combining on an antenna system like Cougar or W. Tiger is an expensive proposition, as in several hundred thousands in capital, which doesn't include operating costs of 10-15K per month in rent.
My guess is the Capitol Hill improvements pretty well emptied their capital budget for this sort of thing. High power combining on an antenna system like Cougar or W. Tiger is an expensive proposition, as in several hundred thousands in capital, which doesn't include operating costs of 10-15K per month in rent.
Nicely put Howard. Whenever someone thinks that they can "just move the xmitter site over there" , they are really kidding themselves unless they've done the proper research and cost analysis. This analysis has to include just how many listeners could be gained AND at what cost. I'm sure that the smart people at KUOW have looked at both Cougar and W Tiger more than once, did their analysis and found the $$ vs. the gain of listeners to be a very pricy option indeed.
Personally, I would love to see KUOW move so that I could hear a signal better whenever I'm driving around town. However, I am a realist who understands that at the end of the day, this is still an NCE station and it's very hard in this current economic climate to ever justify a move just to gain a few more listeners. The engineering work alone would cost several tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars just by itself. That has got to be a lot of money to hang the station pledge donations on....and it clearly would hold up other projects and planned expenditures at the station. With reductions in the state budget and money for the UW, a downward trend in pledges that actually comes in to the station, and increased costs associated with programming overall, FM Steve will just have to get a better antenna if he's not getting the station as well has he might like, or listen to KPLU, which largely replicates most of the NPR programming that's heard on KUOW anyway.
Personally, I would love to see KUOW move so that I could hear a signal better whenever I'm driving around town. However, I am a realist who understands that at the end of the day, this is still an NCE station and it's very hard in this current economic climate to ever justify a move just to gain a few more listeners. The engineering work alone would cost several tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars just by itself. That has got to be a lot of money to hang the station pledge donations on....and it clearly would hold up other projects and planned expenditures at the station. With reductions in the state budget and money for the UW, a downward trend in pledges that actually comes in to the station, and increased costs associated with programming overall, FM Steve will just have to get a better antenna if he's not getting the station as well has he might like, or listen to KPLU, which largely replicates most of the NPR programming that's heard on KUOW anyway.
Sorry to continue the off topic diversion but here is my ultimate "what if"
Cash strapped Seattle Schools sells KNHC to UW for several million...
KUOW moves to 89.5 on Cougar MTN.
KUOW SELLS 94.5 for dozens of millions.
Someone else moves 94.5 to Cougar/Tiger
Everybody wins...
Except for a few hundred techno dance fans and a dozen or so high school kids.
Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.
Cash strapped Seattle Schools sells KNHC to UW for several million...
KUOW moves to 89.5 on Cougar MTN.
KUOW SELLS 94.5 for dozens of millions.
Someone else moves 94.5 to Cougar/Tiger
Everybody wins...
Except for a few hundred techno dance fans and a dozen or so high school kids.
Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.
notalent said:
KNHC is NOT an option. Seattle Public Schools should/if not already know, that the little dance music station they have down at Nathan Hale is the best promotional tool a school district can have. They broke Lady Gaga into the national mainstream. KUBE didn't, KBKS didn't. So there.
94.5 is a measly 100 watt translator for KMIH. You mean 94.9.
And 94.9 is a valued dial position by UW. Because it's not in that non-com ghetto of 88.1 - 91.9 MHz. A commercial frequency where you can really show up is VERY prized as a non-com. The UW KNOWS this. KUOW is going NOWHERE without a FIGHT.
Radio industry people were doing this kind of salivating of possibly moving KING-FM to the 104.9 frequency 10 years ago so another broadcaster can bring us another best mix of the '80s, '90s, etc. on 98.1 MHz. Not a chance.
Not just because it would be the END of KING-FM (horribly weak signal, namely), but the very possibility that Dorothy Bullitt's corpse would personally arise from her grave to wreak her vengeance on the idiot who even DARED to take her beloved station off the Seattle airwaves (and I heard she LOVED garlic, owned plenty of silverware and she was church going and all hard rock and rap did was piss her off even more. Fire? HA! She OWNED a whole broadcasting empire.....)
You wanna deal with THAT?
Thought not. Nobody else suggested it further.....
There are some things you just don't mess with in Seattle......
notalent said:
What the?? Why on earth?? Oh nevermind.. Your name fits, that's for sure.
I
IndigoCoyote
Guest
That IS an interesting thought. How much would you likely save monthly? Anybody?
Here is the Guru with yet another reality check for the amateur business geniuses on this site:
Let's assume the KUOW utility bill is say.. $4,000 per month, but they pay little or no rent currently. Now let's say KUOW moved to one of those mountain sites and their utility bill dropped to $3,000 per month. Super! A net savings of $1,000.00 per month!
Chances are there is a buy-in cost in the form of a non-refundable deposit to the combined site, on the low side: $100,000.
Now add the capital equipment costs to combine with the other stations antenna: $150,000.
Next add in the rent cost that Howard mentioned: $10,000 X 12 or $120,000 per year. For the sake of this argument, let's subtract the huge previous utility savings into that amount: $108,000 per year for rent.
Just the first year capital and rent cost would be $358,000. Even if one amortized the capital expense over a typical ten year lease term, I will guarantee you that the cost of doing business is more than what KUOW pays now. And as someone else mentioned here; it is also a good bet that the increase in signal coverage from any mountain site would not translate to an equivalent fundraising increase.
And what if your brilliant idea didn't cover expenses? Would you be willing to whip out your checkbook and pay the difference? No, I didn't think so.
Let's assume the KUOW utility bill is say.. $4,000 per month, but they pay little or no rent currently. Now let's say KUOW moved to one of those mountain sites and their utility bill dropped to $3,000 per month. Super! A net savings of $1,000.00 per month!
Chances are there is a buy-in cost in the form of a non-refundable deposit to the combined site, on the low side: $100,000.
Now add the capital equipment costs to combine with the other stations antenna: $150,000.
Next add in the rent cost that Howard mentioned: $10,000 X 12 or $120,000 per year. For the sake of this argument, let's subtract the huge previous utility savings into that amount: $108,000 per year for rent.
Just the first year capital and rent cost would be $358,000. Even if one amortized the capital expense over a typical ten year lease term, I will guarantee you that the cost of doing business is more than what KUOW pays now. And as someone else mentioned here; it is also a good bet that the increase in signal coverage from any mountain site would not translate to an equivalent fundraising increase.
And what if your brilliant idea didn't cover expenses? Would you be willing to whip out your checkbook and pay the difference? No, I didn't think so.
The combined antennas at Cougar and Tiger all have extra entry ports available, already built. Adding to the combiner would not be a cost...
Terms would be negotiable whether a new station wished to buy in or just rent space.
In my scenario above they would take over the already existing 89.5 installation... no new physical costs at all!!
One of the existing cluster operators (who could pay 50+ million for 94.9's dial position) would gladly pay the cost to rent one more port on their already existing combined antenna system.
I could see Bonneville, CC, Enercom, or even CBS being seriously interested in paying top dollar for an additional C1 in this market.
Terms would be negotiable whether a new station wished to buy in or just rent space.
In my scenario above they would take over the already existing 89.5 installation... no new physical costs at all!!
One of the existing cluster operators (who could pay 50+ million for 94.9's dial position) would gladly pay the cost to rent one more port on their already existing combined antenna system.
I could see Bonneville, CC, Enercom, or even CBS being seriously interested in paying top dollar for an additional C1 in this market.
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